Heads up: This post is about an older KICKR SNAP edition, check out my latest post about the most current KICKR SNAP trainer here.
Today Wahoo has launched their latest trainer, the Wahoo KICKR SNAP. The KICKR SNAP is essentially a lower-cost version of the original (and enormously popular) Wahoo KICKR, with a few minor tweaks. For those familiar with the wheel-less KICKR, those hardware changes are likely instantly apparent by just looking at the new $850US KICKR SNAP.
Now before we get started – Wahoo doesn’t see the KICKR SNAP as a replacement for the KICKR. Instead, they see it as simply adding a lower cost option in their trainer lineup, one that’s about $350 cheaper than the existing Wahoo KICKR.
So what’s changed? Well, let’s dive into all the technical details. It should be first noted that I’ve had a pre-production KICKR SNAP for quite some time now, and have been riding it through various beta iterations. That said, this isn’t an in-depth review. The software and hardware I have isn’t final, and as is mostly the case these days around here – I’m keeping in-depth reviews for final iterations (hardware/software). No worries, I’ve got a good enough go of things to show you how it all works.
The KICKR SNAP Hardware:
The KICKR SNAP is pretty much every bit as beefy and weighty as the original KICKR. For those not familiar with said original, it’s pretty much built like a tank – and weighs the same as one too. In that case it was just shy of 50 pounds (>22kg). Meanwhile, the KICKR SNAP ate a few less cookies and ended up at 38 pounds (17kg).
While that may sound excessive, it’s actually the extra weight that adds stability, as well as durability in the parts (using metals and such as opposed to plastic). Here’s a quick look at the unboxing of the pre-production unit:
Once you’ve got it all unboxed, you’ll find you basically have just two parts: The trainer, and the power cable.
Seriously, that’s it.
Well, ok, there is the trainer skewer. But just about everyone already has one of those lying around the house anyway. And there’s some paper junk, but nobody reads that.
So that leaves you back with the trainer and the power cord:
The power cord is dual voltage, so you can use it globally. For example the pre-production unit I was sent had a standard US power cord on it. I simply applied a cheap $1 adapter to the end, and boom – it worked perfectly here in Paris. Just like the original KICKR.
Next, the whole thing easily folds up for reasonably simple storage. For example, various readers kept on swinging by the DCR Cave over the last 5-6 weeks, causing me to scurry to fold it up and stash it in the closet. No problems there.
Back to using it though, the unit has a lever on the side that acts as a quick release. It’s functionally similar to the quick release on other trainers, like the Tacx series has had for a while. But the implementation itself is slightly different in that the Wahoo design has a longer handle, versus the Tacx design having a bit more of a paddle.
Here’s how it looks in the closed position:
The KICKR SNAP, like the original KICKR, does require power. It’s here Wahoo has made some improvements to the power cord. While the original KICKR’s power cord was fine, I love the new quick secondary attachment piece on the KICKR SNAP, as it prevents a possible breakage point if you trip over the cable. As the cable will just break away gently as it’s flexible as well.
Next, in order to adjust the tightness on the rear roller (against your rear tire), you’ll use the adjustment knob at the back. It should be rotated two full times after coming in contact with the rear tire.
This is similar to how most other trainers work, but is rather different from the original KICKR in that you leave your rear wheel on the bike. In many ways this comes down to personal preference. For some (like The Girl), she prefers this design, as she hates taking the rear wheel off of her triathlon bike. I mostly fall in the same category (my tri bike is more finicky with the rear drop-out than my road bike).
Whereas others prefer to not have any wheel at all on the trainer, thus reducing wear/tear on tires during the winter months – and in many cases allowing for a slightly more responsive trainer (and in theory, less drift).
When it comes to electronics the KICKR SNAP operates in much the same manner as the original KICKR. It broadcasts on both ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart concurrently.
In doing so, it’ll give you all of the following information:
ANT+ Power Meter Broadcast: ANT+ Power, ANT+ Speed Bluetooth Smart Power Meter Broadcast: Bluetooth Smart Power, Bluetooth Smart Speed
Both of those broadcasts can be picked up by many head units on the market. For example, any Garmin device will pickup (receive) the power meter broadcast, enabling you to display and record your power and speed from the KICKR SNAP.
Similarly, some Bluetooth Smart apps and devices can also read the Bluetooth Smart signals. I say ‘some’ because the landscape is still a bit muddled there. On the app side it’s very good, but on the device side it can be less ‘sure’ that it’ll work. But the rule of thumb is that if it worked with the KICKR it’ll work with the KICKR SNAP.
Finally, when it comes to control of the KICKR SNAP you’ve got two basic avenues: The default Wahoo apps, as well as 3rd party apps. These allow you to specify the resistance of the trainer, be it for a set wattage level (i.e. 255w), a set grade (i.e. 5% with a given headwind), or other combinations like ‘levels’.
I dive into the application world a touch bit more later on though.
In order to give you a run-through of the trainer, here’s a not-so-quick video I put together covering the KICKR SNAP:
Ok, with the ‘how it works’ piece out of the way, let’s take a glance at some test data.
A Recent Test Ride:
Since I’ve been iterating through multiple beta cycles, I’m just going to focus on the most recent test ride – one done just this past evening. You’ll likely see additional beta data over the coming weeks in other power meter related posts.
The goal of this specific test was focused on power meter accuracy across a range of scenarios from low/medium wattage to higher wattage sprints, and then at various cadences and gearings. Additionally, I toyed around with a few of the different modes (during the making of the above video as I changed different modes).
During my in-depth review I’ll go deeper into aspects like responsiveness, stabilization of the power (i.e. how long it takes to normalize), etc…
Please do note, again, that this is a pre-production unit with pre-production firmware. Like any beta there have been some bumps in the road as they have resolved bugs, but by going with the most recent ride it’s the closest to final.
For this evening’s ride, the bike was configured with the following:
A) Wahoo KICKR SNAP (trainer)
B) Pioneer Power Meter
C) PowerTap P1 Pedal Power Meter
D) PowerTap G3 Hub
This data was collected on a small fleet of Garmin Edge devices (Edge 510, Edge 810, 2xEdge 1000). It was then consolidated using Golden Cheetah and then ultimately into Microsoft Excel.
Let’s start at a high level, showing the nearly 30-minute ride, with all three plotted:
Now that’s tougher to read, so let’s dive into a clearer section, most notably one of the higher wattage areas, such as this section:
As you can see (and as you saw in the video), all of the power meters tracked quite well through these sections. I had calibrated all power meters (including a spin-down of the KICKR) at the 0-minute marker. And then again, at the 10-minute marker, per Wahoo’s recommendation to calibrate (complete a spin-down) the KICKR SNAP about 10-minutes in. This is fairly consistent with most other trainers on the market. The spin-down process only takes about 15-30 seconds.
Next, I did some semi-high cadence work. First for roughly a minute at 125RPM, and then following that another minute at 150RPM. You’ll see the KICKR wattage stays quite constant.
You see a bit more variance here on power meters, but you see it across the board with all four power streams recording slightly different results. This isn’t too surprising to be honest, since these sorts of high-cadence tests tend to increase the variability within how the data is streamed and recorded (due to different transmission and capture rates). So I’m not super worried there.
Overall, looking at the first graphs though during the more normal portions – things tracked well.
Wahoo claims an accuracy rate of +/- 5% for the KICKR SNAP, compared to +/- 2% for the full KICKR. Wahoo believes they might be able to increase the accuracy a bit more, but are still working to refine that. So for now – they’re sticking to +/- 5%. In my testing, it seems very much within that range.
(For those that wish to download the original files for their own analysis, they are available here.)
Application Support:
In the most simple terms, the Wahoo KICKR SNAP supports everything the original Wahoo KICKR supports. Which in turn means it supports the most applications of any trainer out there. Basically out of the 25 or so trainer control/integration apps out there (by 3rd party developers), the KICKR is supported on all but three of them (the only three competitive trainer companies). Heck, even some other trainer companies support the Wahoo KICKR/KICKR SNAP (for example, BKOOL & CycleOps).
I outlined all of these 3rd party applications this past winter as part of my massive trainer guide, which you can read here. Anything that says it supports the KICKR, will work for the KICKR SNAP. Simple as that.
Now, in addition to that, the Wahoo KICKR also works with their own app for controlling the trainer. It’s actually this app that I use the most in my day to day training when I’m riding the KICKR/SNAP. It allows me to easily set a given wattage level and then iterate through my structured workouts. This app is available on iOS & Android.
Finally, there’s been some progress as of late with the ANT+ Trainer Control Profile (officially called FE-C). For example, TACX recently rolled out support of it. That was co-announced with Zwift, TrainerRoad, Kinomap and others all announcing support. The list has continued to grow in the past three weeks since.
That said, Wahoo hasn’t yet declared adoption of it. Instead, they’ve said they’ll do so once customers ask for it, or if a major bike computer company were to add support for controlling the trainers from their bike computers. Meaning, if Garmin were to add support to control your trainer directly – they’d likely support the standard. As of today, Garmin hasn’t made any moves that direction. And given that the KICKR is natively supported by the rest of the apps out there, there’s no real loss to consumers at this point with Wahoo’s stance.
Update July 1st, 2015: With the announcement of the Garmin Edge 520 now supporting the FE-C directly from the head unit, Wahoo has confirmed that they will indeed roll-out support of FE-C within the KICKR & KICKR SNAP. They are still working through determining a timeline for that, fair enough given the Garmin announcement is only a few hours old.
Product Comparison Charts:
I’ve added the Wahoo KICKR SNAP into the product comparison database, which allows you to compare features against not only the existing Wahoo KICKR, but also any of the other trainers that I’ve reviewed. Most of the trainers you see in the product comparison database are electronically controlled, or have some electronic smarts in them (i.e. broadcasting of speed/power/cadence/etc…).
You can mix and match to make your own trainer comparisons within the product comparison tool, but for the purposes of this post I’ve just selected the Wahoo KICKR (original) and the KICKR SNAP:
Overall the KICKR SNAP is definitely a welcomed entrant into the smart trainer market. The price point at $350 cheaper than the original KICKR is also interesting, though it does enter a more crowded market segment than a year ago. These days you’ve got the very capable Tacx Bushido Smart and Tacx Vortex Smart Trainers, which have many of the same features as the KICKR SNAP, but at a lower price (especially in Europe).
The main advantage the KICKR SNAP has though (and it’s a HUGE one) is application compatibility. No company is more supported in 3rd party apps today than the Wahoo Trainer. Now that might well change over the coming months as trainer app companies gear up for the fall season and head into Eurobike & Interbike (late August/mid September). In that sense, Wahoo is a touch bit early with the KICKR SNAP compared to when most companies announce trainer products (Eurobike/Interbike).
Speaking of which, Wahoo is looking to start shipping in August, so basically a hair over a month away. At this point, short of some sort of unforeseen manufacturing stumble, I don’t see any show-stoppers to hitting that data software/hardware quality-wise.
Pricing wise, the unit is priced at $850US/€899/£649. (Update July 2020: Price is dropped to $499/€485/£429)
With that – thanks for reading! Feel free to drop any questions below and I’ll try and round up answers.
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Hopefully you found this post useful. At the end of the day, I’m an athlete just like you looking for the most detail possible on a new purchase – so my review is written from the standpoint of how I used the device. The reviews generally take a lot of hours to put together, so it’s a fair bit of work (a labor of love). As you probably noticed by looking below, I also take the time to answer all the questions posted in the comments – and there’s quite a bit of detail in there as well.
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I've got three $15 fans floating around the DCR Cave (previously Honeywell ones, but seems to be rebranded as Amazon Basics now), and I frequently use them on rides. They work just fine. Sure, they're not as powerful as a Wahoo Headwind, but I could literally buy 20 of them for the same price.
This is a super basic trainer mat, which is exactly what you'll see me use. All it does is stop sweat for getting places it shouldn't (it also helps with vibrations too).
I use Apple TV for Zwift the vast majority of the time, but also just for watching YouTube/Netflix/etc on the trainer. The Apple TV remote sucks though. This $8 case fixes that, it's a silicone strap that makes it easy to grab, but also has a strap to easily place on the edge of your handlebars. Boom! Note: Not compatible with 2021 Apple TV Edition.
Here's the thing, some people like front wheel blocks, some don't. I'm one of the ones that do. I like my front wheel to stay put and not aimlessly wiggle around. For $8, this solves that problem. Note some trainers do come with them. Also note, I use a riser block with *every* trainer.
This desk is both a knock-off of the original KICKR Desk, but yet also better than it. First, it's got wheel locks (so the darn thing stays put), and second, it has two water bottle holders (also useful for putting other things like remotes). I've been using it as my main trainer desk for a long time now and love it. Cheaper is better apparently. Note: Branding varies by country, exact same desk.
This is by far the best value in trainer desks, at only $59, but with most of the features of the higher end features. It's got multi-tier tablet slots, water bottle holders, non-stick surface, adjustable height and more. I'm loving it!
One of the most popular trainer fans out there, rivaling the Wahoo Headwind fan in strength but at a fraction of the price. It doesn't have smartphone/ANT+/Bluetooth integration, but it does have secondary outlets. I've been using it, and a similiar European version lately with great success (exact EU variant I use is automatically linked at left).
I've had this for years, and use it in places where I don't have a big screen or desk, but just an iPad or tablet on my road bike bars.
Additionally, you can also use Amazon to purchase the unit (though, no discount/points). Or, anything else you pickup on Amazon helps support the site as well (socks, laundry detergent, cowbells). If you’re outside the US, I’ve got links to all of the major individual country Amazon stores on the sidebar towards the top.
I understand it’s cheaper but don’t Wahoo know that there’s price points? The customers who will pay $850 for a trainer are almost entirely the same who will pay $1100 for a trainer. I don’t see how this adds customers.
Ray, you know more of the actual numbers in sales and prices so maybe you can give a better guess but it seems to me that the price point is more likely $500-600. Once you go over that (for a trainer), you’re likely looking at the same customers.
I am not so sure.
I have a KICKR, and being cheap, I would have opted for this model over the current version. I still want the features, but cheaper is better.
Next statement. I would be trying to workout how much not having to worry about training wheel is worth when it comes to my time, or training tyres, or (and I hope this gets covered in the full review) – Continuous drift and the power differences if the tyre is not the same pressure, or screwed into the same distance as previous. At least I know with the current model that it will be the same (depending on how clean the chain is). Some repeatability is the aim, afterall.
Is that repeatability worth $250? possibly. There is a lot to choose between the two. if the difference was another hundred dollars, then the question would be even harder.
In theory, the rolldown calibration takes care of any initial differences such as tyre wear, pressure or clamping force. Where Ray is talking about there being more drift with the SNAP vs. the original KICKR is that you now have more components (namely a wheel & tyre) to drift with temperature changes over the course of a workout.
(First, a minor correct, I should have had the KICKR price at $1,200 – fixed)
That said, I agree to a degree that $850 is on the steeper side given the Tacx offerings. But I think they’re essentially pulling the ‘Garmin card’ out, in that they know they have a more widely compatible product (in this case, with 3rd party apps) – so today they can charge a premium for it.
A year from now? Probably not. The biggest challenge Tacx has there is that they (Tacx) haven’t opened up any Bluetooth Smart control of the platform to 3rd parties, and the reality is that most tablet/phone based apps are using BT Smart, not ANT+, to control them.
You’re confirming my point. You are a customer of the more expensive Kickr and would instead have chosen the cheaper model. You would lose them some money but not help them gain a new customer. This is still the same price point for a customer like you.
There’s certainly a price point above you too. You probably wouldn’t spend $3000 on a Kickr. But this $850 would not make a person considering a mid-range trainer (typically in the $500 range) spend 70 % more to get this trainer.
I have to agree with don. I have been lusting after a KICKR for a while, and while the SNAP has everything I want, the savings of $350 doesn’t make me want to jump on it. In fact, it pushes me away from it because when I hit that price point of $850, it becomes less about saving money & more about getting exactly what I want. In this case, I would say that if I’m already willing to pay a premium for a trainer, why get a standard roller trainer with all the negative nuances (i.e. wheel slip) when I can get a KICKR trainer for just $350 more.
Pricing the SNAP at $599 or even $649 would make me jump all over it. But at $849, I may as well keep going up to $1199 & get the top of the line.
To be quite blunt, the more expensive unit is more than I am willing to consider at this point; but I am open to considering the less expensive model, especially since it lets me leave the rear wheel in place.
Let’s just say that my wife has a few pet peeves, including high ticket capital purchase items that she does not personally see the benefit of (my wife is not a triathlete, at least not yet, though I am trying to persuade her) and clutter (the ability of this unit to fold and stow is a definite plus).
As a consequence, Don, I would suggest that it is erroneous to assume that the market for one is also the market for the other. My openness to a sub thousand price tag is drastically greater than my openness to an over a thousand price tag. Essentially, my resistance becomes exponential once it crosses that threshold.
I agree. I have had issues with tire longevity on rear-wheel friction trainers…even when I follow the manufacturer’s instructions. The solution was a second wheel with a trainer specific tire. When you add in this cost, the gap closes further. In addition to that, consistency from workout to workout is a challenge because of varying tire pressure and constant calibration.
The price point needs to be wider to make the Snap a better overall value.
Steven Lengua, appreciate better research and less rumor before posting. If you take the time to go to the Performance Bike website and actually read the Terms & Conditions of the coupon, Wahoo Fitness is among the excluded brands.
If it looks too good to be true, then in most cases it probably will be…
Thanks for the feedback. There are no specific exclusions for Wahoo on the receipt itself and that is what the clerks go by. I wouldn’t have posted it if I hadn’t bought it earlier for myself at this price. My receipt from the store is attached. Hopefully that is enough research for you? Maybe this deal is only for folks who actually find the too good to be true deal, score it and then take the time to share for the benefit of others. I’m more than happy with my purchase at the price mentioned previously, and I hope others can get to the store in time to get it. Happy Holidays.
Yeah, Performance always lists Wahoo as excluded on coupons/deals, but it never actually is (nor has been for years, despite also saying it was for years).
The coupon is live again today, so if anyone is interested go in store to snag this trainer. I wouldn’t pay $849 for it (imho), but for $599 I considered it and got it. The coupon when printed does not list any exclusions and so the clerk didn’t even check. If they give any trouble maybe showing them my receipt would help. I’ve never had any trouble at a PB shop, they’ve always been a stand up store. Good luck fellow cyclists!
Steven, thats a good deal for sure, nice score. I did see that deal but figured after driving to the nearest store (Pasadena which is 90 miles round trip…so gas $), and paying tax (LA County higher than SD) I would have saved not a heck of a lot :/ . No tax onWahoo site (I was told) and free shipping. Almost did it anyways but am doing more research, but leaning towards the Snap. How do you like it??
Haven’t tried it yet =). Soccer season just ended for my kids so I’ve been able to get out and ride in the mornings. Season starts up again after new years so my weekend AM will be busy again, and I ride the trainer in the afternoon. I’m hoping I can simulate California roads and or race courses on the Wahoo. Not sure though. Figure this virtual ride thing is just going to get bigger and bigger. Thought I would jump in at ground level with a decent price.
Hey Ray, very cool. Any thoughts on the noise this makes compared to the KICKR and other trainers? I live in an apartment so I need to minimize noise as much as possible. I’m always concerned my CycleOps mag is too loud at around 85 dB at 3ft. Thanks.
It seems comparable. The thing is with trainers is it’s all about two factors:
1) Speed of your wheel
2) Trainer tire
If you equalize those two factors, I’ve shown in past tests that virtually all tire-based trainers operate within the same very narrow dB range.
In the video you hear the sound being pretty awful, but that’s just the microphone. I’ll have to figure out how to more accurately capture it (either in the Cave, or by just temporarily recording it elsewhere).
Right, know that noise level is a common question, and one that is tough to answer in relative terms. True that the tire (tyre for the euros) and speed makes a difference.
What I have noticed is differences of sound levels at given wattage levels over speed of the wheel. 250 watts is very different from 500 watts of effort given the braking force the trainer has to produce to resist the spin – in other words a watts vs. watts measure in lieu of speed.
In general terms, my electric force Tacx “growls” much louder at higher watt levels, whereas the fluid Kurt Kinetics tends to “whirrrr” more linear with increased watts. And as an odd side note, the older rim trainer stays pretty level regardless of the watts, yet of course the braking force in this case is constant.
Wahoo has long promised that their app for controlling the Kickr would be user configurable “soon.” As it stands now, controlling resistance is on a separate data page from heart rate, one of the primary metrics of most/many workouts. Hugely inconvenient. Even without letting users create a custom data page, why not have a static one with resistance control and heart rate? This seems like a no-brainer.
Yeah, the Wahoo app is definitely a let-down when it comes to configurable fields. For me, I just use the app to control the wattage, but I use a Garmin to display the power and watch that.
Not getting this one to be honest. The price differential from original kickr isn’t high enough, I think people would go Tacx smart now that Tacx have finally woken up and opened the platform up.
Ray, lot’s of comments about power meter accuracy on the Kickr as it hasn’t got temp compensation. Have Kickr addressed on this one?
Great to read about coming products and great to have neutral reviews before they go on sale. Thanks.
Interested in the accuracy question, too, as there seem to be a lot of KICKRs out there that diverge a lot more than the claimed 2%, even with spin down and taking into account that the power meters they are compared to will often have some diversion too and possible beyond manufacturers specification.
My additional, related question would be whether they support hooking up to an external power meter for more accurate (or at least consistent) resistance control as they did with their firmware update for the KICKR?
Ok, that’s interesting. So in theory this should be more accurate than the original Kickr? And presumably that also means Kickr will get that update soonish…
Interesting. I first read BikeRadar’s article on this new trainer, which claimed that “Aside from providing digital wattage information, the Snap functions like a standard trainer where the rider controls the resistance by shifting gears and changing cadence.” That certainly made the MSRP seem way high, but if it has electronic resistance control like the regular KICKR it makes much more sense. Still wouldn’t trade mine for a SNAP though!
Ohh and could you please tell Wahoo to hurry up and release a magnet-less dual-band speed sensor? I really don’t get why they don’t have one on the market already, all that should be required is different firmware for the RPM and a new snap-on mount that fits around a hub. Should be a quick and simple project!
the price point doesn’t seem competitive at all compared to the Tacx trainers. You can get the bushido in the uk for around £380 and the vortex around £250 – now the Tacx units have ANT FE-C which the major apps support I can’t see the advantage of the £850 snap (not a good name either !)
It doesn’t cost that much though, but Wahoo’s pricing is admittedly a bit strange. While I cannot verify Wahoo’s US pricing (the location selector on their site is broken) it seems MSRP for the regular KICKR is $1099 USD/€1099.99 EUR/£1099.99 GBP, same numbers even though the currencies differ quite a lot with the UK clearly getting the worst deal. The KICKR SNAP however is currently priced at $849 USD/€665.03 EUR/£569.49 GBP, which means the UK price (which includes VAT) is actually lower than the US price (which doesn’t), and European price is lower still! Someone must’ve screwed up their calculations…
even at those prices, what do you get over the Tacx Vortex at £250 – apart from bluetooth support (which for me is irrelevant as I’m exclusively ant+) ?
the apps I use (zwift/trainerroad etc) support FE-C so no probs there and there is no way I’m putting out 2000watts so again a non-issue
For your case with Zwift/TrainerRoad, you don’t get much extra (well, it could be argued the SNAP is built stronger, which I’d agree with – whether that really matters is debatable).
But, if you use one of the other ~20 apps that don’t support the FE-C – then the Tacx might be a show-stopper.
Yes, though, it’s best to be in Erg mode where you aren’t changing gears. Otherwise, you’ll get certain gearing that won’t really work, but in Erg mode you can just find whatever gearing is silent and change the power as required.
It’s what I do sometimes when testing bikes that run varying configs.
it’s also just a standard cassette, so it’s easy to buy a low-end cassette with the right count. And it’s not like the proper gearing/tooth count matters..
It’s list price is £570. Now considering the Kickr list price is £1,100 and you can get it for £900, then I would hope the snap would come in under the £500 mark.
Well RRP it’s already going to be about half the price. Kickr is RRP £1,100 and Snap is RRP £570, only £20 off being half price, before you take into account any discount from RRP.
So, basically, the only difference between the KICKR and the SNAP is just that way you put your bike on it (and what comes as consequence, as less drag, more precise power measurement)?
Or is there something else I missed from your review?
Wahoo would argue that the KICKR (original) has a better feel to it – which is indeed true. Now that said, at some point most trainers still feel like a trainer. I’d say though that the KICKR SNAP feels better than the lesser priced Tacx Smart trainers though. And feels perfectly fine to me.
They’d also argue (correctly), that the KICKR original won’t ever have any wheel slip, which is also true. But at the same time, I haven’t seen wheel slip with the SNAP either (but have seen it with numerous other lesser priced trainers). Wheel slip is when you exert significant power to the trainer (such as a steep incline or a sprint), and the wheel ‘slips’, causing a slight jump.
Well, then it look like the perfect choice: same compatibility and width of options as the KICKR, almost same feel, but 350USD less…
Can’t wait to buy it…
Unless they also come out with an improved KICKR vNext
Have you ever tried hard climbing sessions in erg mode? Such as 30-30 sessions. Wouldn’t the increased resistance on the roller + more power to the pedal cause much more tire slippag? So far that seems to be the only thing that would make me want to get the original over the Snap, but then again, its almost $700 cad more…
Technically yes, but not really appreciably for 99% of riders. I do 30/30’s often, and usually in the 500w/100w range. If you’re doing them at something like 1,200w/100w, then yes, there’s far less issues with slippage on a direct drive trainer. But otherwise, nothing of concern.
From reading this review, it looks to me like a fatal blow to Racermate/Computrainer. I have a very old Computrainer which I was considering replacing with a Kickr. However the fact that my Computrainer is still functional and compatible with Zwift made me reluctant to spend the money. The SNAP looks like it will change my mind. It will also mean that I’ll be giving away the Computrainer for pennies at best!
Ray, do you know what technology the device used to measure power? Do they have a small LED and a photodetector on the cylinder like the Cycleops PowerBeam Pro? Thanks!
So torn between the Vortex Smart and something more expensive (like the SNAP or Powerbeam / Sync). For me, I feel like I’d keep buying additional power meters over a smart trainer if the price is >> $500-600. As nice as direct drive sounds, I’d love to avoid wheel removal too.
So far I’ve been using a Kurt Road Machine for ~7 years with a PowerTap for most of it. I’d like to avoid swapping wheels between bikes, but also an intrigued by ERG workouts.
When I saw the post pop into my feed I went wishing this would fill my needs. Maybe if someone offers a big discount coupon or eventually some refurbs I’d re-look at it. The KICKR can be found for as low as ~$900-950 at times so maybe I have a hope.
That all being said, I’m resorting to 90% trainer rides lately so maybe the trainer investment is worth it for me.
Also somewhat bummed by the 5% accuracy spec on the SNAP — that seems pretty significant. Is that after a rolldown calibration?
I wouldn’t want to be doing Over-Under Intervals with 5% power accuracy, as that probably blurs the lines between training zones.
I would like to use my Powertap for resistance control, so I would have purchased the Snap rather than the Kickr, but I really like the Kickr’s drivetrain engagement, heavy flywheel and stability.
The Kickr is compatible with more bikes than the Snap? Any tire width restrictions on the Snap?
I assume this means that there will be no possible price drops on the original KICKR in the near future as the SNAP will be their competitor product to the rest of the trainer market & the KICKR will remain in a class by itself (thus justifying the high price).
Do you anticipate any sort of price drop on the original KICKR, lest the SNAP really cannibalize sales, or do you think Wahoo is holding firm on that front? I’d really like to replace my aging Computrainer with a KICKR, but the price has always been an issue. I was hoping for an eventual drop, not a new product, but it seems those hopes may be dashed.
Ray, have you been testing this one? It’s not on the Tacx website, not in the magazines and nowhere else. Anyone an idea about pricing, specs, availability,…? link to pedal-pedal.co.uk
Glad you got something out of this article.
Ray puts in countless, selfless man hours to conduct and type up these in depth reviews without pay. I think he deserves a bit of leeway.
Ray is a big boy and is generally appreciative of any additional proof reading. (note that he’s already corrected the typo) Pretty sure he doesn’t need you to defend his honor.
It has, though merely because I can’t put both pedals on at the same time. :) And right now I’m focused on the P1.
That said, I’m loving the P1’s. I don’t foresee going back to Vector after I’m done with the P1 testing (the reason is singular: Installation is un-screw-up-able and non-finicky).
I see this as less of a competitive product to KiCKR’s original trainer and more of a direct competitor to the PowerBeam Pro (list price is $999). So the $850 price seems spot on to me.
I will be interested in your full review to see how it compares to the PowerBeam Pro. The main difference I see between those two products is that the KiCKR supports both Bluetooth and ANT+ while the Powerbeam Pro gives you and either/or option when you purchase.
One thing I have notices on the PowerBeam Pro is that it has a harder time dealing with lower watts. So, for example, if you are a big dude with an FTP over 200, you don’t notice any problems because even your “easy spin” is going to be above 100. But if you are a little peep (like me), with an FTP under 150, then your “easy spin” just doesn’t quite match up. I notice this particularly when using TrainerRoad or Zwift where the ERG mode is on. It would be great if you could review or comment on that piece of the puzzle.
Yeah, I think the biggest (and it’s huge) drawback I see is the PowerBeam Pro’s inability to do dual. It’s just hard for me to recommend it as a single-protocol option these days. With so many apps on BT Smart, yet so much of the population on Garmin head units, it puts one in an awkward spot.
I have the Kickr (now hosting the wife’s bike) and the Kickr Snap, so I can comment on this. Putting the wife on the original Kickr was a good choice for the reason you are concerned about. With the Snap, when I used the Wahoo Fitness App, I couldn’t really get much less than 100 watts on it, no matter what it was set at. In Trainerroad (erg mode where software controls the power), I had some rest intervals at 100 watts and with normal cadence I could only get down to ~110 watts. If I slowed down, then I could get it to drop to 100. After my ride, as a test, I opened another workout and reduced the level way down, and I managed to get down to about 70 Watts.
Based on my experience, I’d say the original Kickr would be a much better choice for you than the Snap.
A separate point regarding cost. If you’re a Campy user, the price difference between the Kickr and the Snap works out to something closer to $500 when you figure in the adapter and another cassette. This is pretty significant and swayed me towards the Snap for the 2nd trainer.
Finally, the Snap is very quiet – in fact seems quieter than the original Kickr to me, though I haven’t had them going simultaneously yet.
Sounds like you are over-gearing the Snap. My wife and son are able to use the snap with less than 50W if need be. You just need to use little ring and big rear cog.
Interesting indeed, looks like they added it at some point along the line (my KICKR is from pretty early in the product life, perhaps 3-4 months after initial release).
My KICKR is the same as yours. I’ve used zip ties to prevent anything from easily pulling on the cable connecting into the unit. Even ended up using zip ties to affix the power brick to one of the rear arms. Works great!
What would be an even greater benefit is if the unit would reverse the electric draw and put power back into the grid. If I could reduce my electric bill, that would be another incentive to get on the bike and help payback the cost of the unit.
Can you comment on any difference in “noise” volume and pitch between the two? I briefly had a kickr and while the dB seem similar to Kurt kinetic I found the pitch higher so it seemed louder. Thanks
I’ve been planning on getting a KICKR this winter for basement training (and playing in Zwift). I’ve been holding off buying one assuming that there’s a good chance that there will be a KICKR v2 released at the end of the summer. Does this mean that there definitely won’t be?
Yeah, I’ve been using TrainerRoad for 2 years and I love it. Thought it might be an interesting option to mix it up with Zwift.
I’ve been using a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine 2 with Wahoo Blue SC sensors. It’s a good setup and I’m still wondering if it’s worth the money to upgrade to the KICKR. I’m most interested in the controlled resistance so that I don’t have to pay so much attention to following the line in TrainerRoad.
Ben, if you don’t like manually adjusting in Trainerroad, the kickr is for you. I ride Sufferfest workouts right at my pain threshold, and having the “automatic difficulty adjustment” is both incredibly accurate and also allows you to focus on giving everything you’ve got. The only thing it doesn’t do well is Sprint repeats, like 5 or 10 second sprints, as it takes a few seconds to adjust. I can show TR workouts showing that if you want- though email/twitter is probably easier than comments here.
This! I have KK mag trainer for indoor winter rides with trainer road. Have the machine control the resistance for power levels would be great. Just not sure it would be $600 tacx great, $850 new kickr great, or $1200 original kickr great.
Changing a single gear on my trainer has very little effect once you are going. Trying to figure out how to get from 160 watts to 200 watts to 240 watts involves me testing out ahead gear jumps and mag resistance levels.
I don’t really see the use-case for these super expensive trainers with built-in powermeters, because:
1. You need an on-bike power meter anyway for outside
2. You really want that power meter to match your indoor work at high precision
I use Zwift a lot on my dumb trainer + power meter and am 100% satisfied. I do not want the resistance to change based on the course, ESPECIALLY downhills. If I want to change resistance I just…change gears. Let’s me control my training perfectly, which is the biggest advantage of indoor training.
I can see the KICKR, since it offers a better feel and doesn’t wear tires, but not this.
Doesn’t the controlled resistance also allow it to simulate low speed, high power hill climbing? I also have a dumb trainer and the only way to get to high power is to move to a high gear and get the wheel turning fast. Maybe it’s just in my head, but that rear wheel spinning fast is never going to feel like a low speed hill climb.
Yep, it lets you put out X watts, independent of “wheel” or pedal RPM. The watt measurement is essential to make the whole thing work. It’s not just putting you at a given resistance.
I don’t understand why any trainer manufacturers don’t use a spring to push the roller against the wheel. The tension of a heavy guage spring would be constant. Screwing the roller up against the tire… just seems to leave too many variables into the equation.
Whatever spring tension is ok for 150psi super skinny tires can be way too much for fatter 90psi tires. Not everyone is using standard training tires. Also normal compression spring is not really constant pressure unless it is rather long. So you either have to go for a spring that is too long or use special purpose constant force springs. Either might complicate design and make it more expensive. Just an example. There can of course be other reasons.
Just a minor point unless you are highly space constrained (e.g. New York City apartment)… The original KICKR will take up less room without a rear wheel.
I really looking forward to it … where i find i M missing out is my ability to adjust to differing inclines…since where i ride is mostly flat … so looking for a trainer with ability to work with gps courses
jsut wish one could control SNAP resistance from my quarq not from internal; but then i will jsut learn the difference between the two inthe erg mode i guess
otherwise I was actually looking for a KICKR without the hassle of rear wheel change aka Computertrainer so I AM IN
With the Edge 520 it looks like Wahoo has their incentive to add ANT+ FE-C to the KICKRs?
Perhaps that note in the review about a major cycle computer manufacturer adding support for the protocol was intentional foreshadowing of today’s announcement?
Actually, Wahoo didn’t know till 7:00AM EST this morning about it. But I called them at 7:01AM and we had a chat and they’ve confirmed they plan to support FE-C in the KICKR & KICKR SNAP. They’re just sorting through the exact timelines for that (logical given they only found out a few hours ago).
Yeah, I had asked Wahoo to validate/verify all the information in the tables and they said it’s good. I’ll circle back and ask which number is correct.
Is the power cord the same kind as the kickr? If one wants to buy a duplicate or second one, what should you look for? Wahoo retailers want $99 for a replacement…which seems like robbery.
As a KICKR owner, there is one aspect that no-one has really picked up on here, and that is the ability to share a trainer with the rest of your family and whatever bikes they may be using. As the KICKR is a wheel off design where the cassette must match your bike setup, this can be restrictive. My wife’s and son’s bike is a 9 speed, my daughter has a MTB and wanted to do some spinning over the winter – none of these bikes are compatible with the KICKR and none of them are really up for taking a wheel off. They use a simple Cyclops mag trainer instead. The KICKR is matched up with an old (busted frame) cannondale I have, so its pretty much a dedicated “spin bike setup” just for me. Food for thought……
There is another aspect to the original KICKR which again no-one really comments on. On your road bike, assuming you do decent mileage, your chain wears in tandem with your cassette…kinda….certainly when I then moved my bike to the KICKR it was very noisy and notchety. I ended up moving over the cassette too.
Its for the above two reasons that I think a wheel-on design will suit a very large number of consumers. Wheel off is really for dedicated high mileage athletes.
Lee – good points. A couple notes. my orig KICKR supports a MTB and a Road bike. There is a little adapter that came with it to adjust to the different spacing. You are probably also aware that you don’t need to or want to shift when in ERG mode (the normal mode most people use). The wattage is automatically adjusted to match the workout profile as your cadence changes (I use TrainerRoad and Zwift). So shift to a quiet mid-cassette cog and go. That could make it more compatible with various bikes? I use a single speed setup on my KICKR – a single cog with spacers, and put my old road bike on it. No brakes, no shifters, no cables, no derailleurs. Just a bare bones bike for use on the trainer. With a QR seat post, different riders can adjust sizing and use it.
True Dave, on my wife’s bike though I couldn’t get a quiet cog, the derailleur would need re-indexing onto the kickr cassette else it was always between cogs. It also slipped somethinh rotten in certain cogs, no doubt the difference between a 10sp cassette and 9 or 8 chain.
But in essence I guess the point I was making is that the SNAP is far more attractive to being shared, other than a training skewer change which is a once-only thing, you just bolt up whatever bike you have and you’re off.
Regarding the ERG comment, I agree, 99% of the time I use this. However when doing something like a sufferfest video via trainerroad, there are times where you want to get out of the saddle and would prefer a tonne more resistance, so changing to a higher gear…..but then in ERG mode you tend to over-power, the setup reduces the resistance and its all a bit “horrible” :) And of course there are those times when trainerroad is asking you for crazy watts and you’re simply unable to deliver. You grind to a halt and just lock up if you’re in ERG mode. With a basic resistance mode you can just accept you’re not achieving what was asked and take a breather.
Let’s assume you can get a Bushido Smart for $500, is the SNAP worth $200 more than the Bushido? $300 more? (assuming also that, once released, a partial deal could be found).
I’m having trouble wavering back and forth with pulling the trigger on a Bushido Smart vs waiting.
I generally only use TrainerRoad with an iPad or iPhone. a bummer is that i always need to connect my Wahoo key since i use a Kurt Road Machine and a PowerTap for Power. I’d like to go fully accessory-less on the iPhone (sans-wahoo key) but that won’t happen with the Tacx unless they open up their BTLE.
Such a tough decision… in general I believe the additional app support for the KICKR is not so important to me, but feel, reliability and robustness is important. I just can’t tell if the SNAP has more of enough of those areas to justify both waiting and $200-$300 extra cost!
Regarding kickr and FE-C, are they going to release a firmware update or is it a piece of hardware that must be added, therefore old kickr’s will not have that option?
I called Wahoo on Monday. The snap does not currently have adapters to work with a 142mm thru axle. If disc brakes are in your future for 2016, be warned… this may not work. I also called Tacx and they don’t see any problems with 142 using the required adapters but will not work with Boost axles.
Outside of rear wheel v. no rear wheel preference, power accuracy and price this has all the functionality of the the KICKR. I’m looking for something that functions like my old CompuTrainer – you select a course and it changes the resistance as the course changes – and this appears to fit the bill. At half the price of a CompuTrainer, did I miss something (other than “lab accurate” wattage)?
If you could choose between this, the Kickr Snap, and the Tacx Vortex Smart, which would you go for? I’m torn between the two. Unfortunately the snap doesn’t come out for another month but the Tacx is available now. Is there much difference between them? Is it worth waiting for the Snap? Thanks!
Here in the UK, the Vortex Smart can be had for £285. We’re yet to see what the street price is for the KICKR Snap, currently its £650 from Wahoo. But thats a big difference. Perhaps a truer comparison is between the Bushido Smart as its a bit more heavyweight – thats £409 here, still a fair bit cheaper.
The KICKR demanded a high price as it was a solid piece of kit, one of the first (if not the first?) to market with a dual BT/ANT stack and resistance control. They did well to get in first and all of the popular apps supported their product first.
But now the rest are catching up. I think Wahoo might have to rethink their pricing. Tacx are hardly “new, unproven vendor” like perhaps BKool might be considered.
So the main advantage the KICKR SNAP has right now over the Tacx offerings is that all of the iOS (and many Android) apps support the KICKR/SNAP via Bluetooth Smart, whereas there isn’t yet a way for 3rd party apps to control the Tacx series via Bluetooth Smart (only ANT+). This isn’t a big deal for desktop apps or even many Android apps (since you can do ANT+ there), but is a big deal if you want an iOS app that doesn’t have ANT+ (if you or the app doesn’t have ANT+ support/dongle).
Thanks both. Thats useful. I’m really looking to get a setup where I can use trainerroad + Sufferfest OR Zwift and get the feedback from the device.
I’m a bit torn between the vortex and snap (possibly bushido but have seen some bad reviews).
I’m an average cyclist looking to upgrade to a smart trainer and get something a bit more fun/interactive to use indoors. I think I might go for the Vortex but I do like the look of the wahoo stuff.
Thanks again for the responses. Really appreciate it.
I am looking to upgrade/augment my trainer from the Kinetic inRide to the Wahoo unit.
Couple of questions:
Besides wheel mount and cost and mass, it seems like the snap and original have the same functionality. Any differences I am missing? I was told by a LBS that the snap does not hold wattage specified like the original kicker, is that the case?
The idea of the unit holding the wattage for me is a great improvement over the inride unit as it allows me to concentrate on cadence only. Also the ability to ride segments online anywhere in the world. Any other ‘advantages’ you see over the inride?
Thanks, Ray! You actually answered my question as well. Functionally, the original KICKR and SNAP seemed identical but I felt I was missing some “gotcha” since there was a $350 price difference.
Hi Ray, do you have any stats on width and length of the unit? The main reason I’m asking is to determine whether the unit would fit in a suitcase easily. This is for when I travel, I can pack in one case and my bike in the other. Cookie
I just purchased the Kickr SNAP and have been ‘playing’ with it a couple of times; setting up and a quick spin to try the different modes etc…
A few questions to all the Wahoo users:
(I have a Garmin 510 that I use on the road with Vector pedals for power on the road. )
I noticed that when I tried a basic spin using the Wahoo app and then with trainer road later that the cadence is not indicated. I like to train to power and cadence, is their a way to read my cadence from my Garmin 510 set up? (I noticed on Ray’s excellent video review (@6:10) that cadence was not being measured as well.) Should I just run my Garmin 510 / Vector setup in parallel with the Wahoo app or TR software?
When using Trainer Road with preselected workouts: at predetermined power intervals in Erg mode, do I just leave the gear selection alone and not change it? What about cadence? Eg. I imagine that if i am in a certain gear (e.g. 50/17) and the power is 200W and cadence is let’s say 90RPM, that when a HIIT session kicks in at 275W, that in the same gear will my cadence automatically drop as the power ramps up? I’m used to using the Kurt Kinetic and changing gears to up the power and then trying to maintain a certain cadence to hold that power. (Muscular endurance vs neuromuscular training)
Hi Vince…..I assume you get cadence from your vector pedals as well as power. The kickr does not measure cadence. You’re totally relying on how clever the software you plan on using is here…..because you need to link both the kickr and the vector in order to get kickr control as well as both sets of data. In trainerroad this is doable as the kickr is added as a specific device, then you add in “power meter” for your vector. You then change the settings to use the kickr as the authoritative device for power. This only works on TR. The wahoo app on iOS would only let me connect to either a kickr *or* a power meter (stages) but not both together, I was told it was a restriction of the bluetooth stack, however it appears trainerroad on iOS allows you to……
Ideally run in erg mode and then cadence is irrelevant. You will choose a cadence you are comfortable with. So to answer your specific case about an increase of 275W, you can either keep the cadence the same and apply more effort, or spin your legs faster, its up to you. Given you are used to maintaining the same cadence, then do the same on the kickr, obviously the muscular effort required will have to increase to compensate.
I was told by trainer road to activate the cadence & sensor tab (it will pick up my GSC-10 Garmin cadence sensor) in the device tab….but it didn’t work that one time. Maybe I need to try it again…
Otherwise I will just run the Garmin 510, side-by-side, with TR/Kickr and read the cadence off the garmin unit.
Hi,
Just starting out in cycling and looking for a trainer so I can utilise TrainerRoad and other online resources.
What’s the consensus between Wahoo Kickr Snap, TACX Vortex Smart and now Bkool (now they have announced Ant+ control)??
The Kickr Snap is a little more pricey here in Aus (and hard to source) over the TACX Vortex smart and the BKOOL models.
I have a Garmin 520 hence the Ant+ control being a big feature.
Cheers.
Hi, first and most important thanks for the reviews. I did however have a question not mention on your analysis, can either a KICKR or a SNAP smart trainer communicate with the Tacx software (version 3 hopefully) or 4 but I will have to buy it. To follow both RLV and or Strava downloaded segments or routes?
I may have missed this- so apologies if it’s already been answered…but what is it like to ride? I have a 17 year old cateye cyclosimulator that’s a joy to ride…feels better than just about all of the modern turbos I have tried. What’s the Snap like to actually spend time on? Forget the maths…what’s the feel like?
For this of you who were saying why wouldn’t you go Tacx- I had a Bushido for 4 days- worst experience ever. Spent more time configuring it than riding it. Even when it was working…a day later it decided not to work. It went back. V poor.
I am new to this site and apologize ahead of time if I am violating any protocols. I am in the market for a trainer and am torn between the Cycle Ops Power Beam and the Wahoo Kickr Snap. I’ve considered the Tacx iGenius but after reading the various reviews, have decided against it.
I’m an amateur cyclist. I ride 2-4 times per week, typically anywhere from 12 – 30 miles per ride, and I also spin at my local gym.
Sometimes stuff just sits. As for me I’d get the Snap. I have a regular Kickr and have been quite satisfied. CS at Wahoo is first rate and the unit itself has been reliable. Wahoo apps function well. I don’t know why the sand would be any different.
Tacx has had software problems in the past so I am a bit scared of them.
Question regarding variability of power measurements. On my “normal” Tracx Comp fluid trainer I get what seems like huge perceived variability with the resistance depending on exactly how tight I turn the roller adjustment knob. (using TrainerRoad’s virtual power and what I just ‘feel’). Even a quarter of a turn makes a difference. Same thing seems to apply to tire pressure, but that’s easier to keep consistent. I’ve been thinking of getting the Kickr or a power meter instead of the Kickr Snap for to eliminate these issues. Is my reasoning sound or I’m I just doing something wrong?
Your reasoning seems close, but I believe an ERG based trainer should be able to calibrate the effect of the “knob tightness” and tire pressure with a rolldown test and thus eliminate the variation by adjusting it out with the electronic brake unit.
Hopefully someone with more experience than me will chime in, but that is my understanding.
Still, of course, a direct drive trainer can clearly even further eliminate any concerns in this area… but at the cost of removing the wheel with each mounting and removal from the trainer.
Hi Ray,
Thanks as always for the great review. After much debate, I am now the proud owner of a SNAP, my first trainer.
My question, that I can’t seem to find an easy answer to, is what is the best way, either through the Wahoo app or a 3rd party to get my coach-prescribed workouts (from TP) done on the SNAP? On my first try the best I could figure out was manually changing the target in erg mode as I go. I looked at Trainer Road, but that seems to be for pre packaged workouts.
Any of the Wahoo KICKR apps will work on the KICKR Snap, so I’d start there. TrainerRoad does allow you to create workouts using a workout creator. I’m not sure if there are any that allow you to download from Training Peaks.
Thanks. This helps. I think I’ll give Trainer Road a try, didn’t realize it allows you to create workouts (didn’t find that on their site).
Yeah, I didn’t think there would be anything that would allow a download from Training Peaks, since that’s essentially just text. But if someone figures that out, I’ll pay for it!
Appreciate the apps review – thanks for all of this.
if you are lucky owner of Garmin Edge 520 you can do it without any apps/PC/tablet. Just create your workouts in Garmin Connect, upload to Edge 520, connect Snap to Edge 520 via ANT+ FE-C (‘smart trainer’) and you are ready to suffer ;)
Is there a minimum wattage that the kickr snap supports in erg mode? Depending on gearing, mine bottoms out in 80-100 range unless I shift into 34/25 which is fairly ridiculous.
I just got a KICKR with an out of balance flywheel as well. Wahoo tech support sent me a return label and will send me a new, tested, trainer. If you haven’t already, it’s worth sending them an email about the problem.
I am looking into getting the snap as my road bike is a nine speed and the changing of the cassette on the original kickr is just mindboggling to me.
So I have a ton of garmin stuff…. the 920xt heart rate speed/cadence sensors for the bike. My question Is will the snap or the apps pick up the data from my garmin accessories or will I have to get different accessories when I run training programs.
I am trying not to have a bunch of different things that I need to control….I just want to hook up the bike and go
I have just bought a Snap for the wife as she has a 9sp. And also, whilst my son has a 10sp, his indexing doesn’t line up with the cassette on my kickr and re-indexing is a bit beyond him.
The snap doesn’t “pick up sensors”. You run apps, whether its on a PC, Mac or Phone/Tablet. So then it depends on whether your sensors are ANT+, Bluetooth, or both.
OK, so having spent the last month fighting with the (numerous) issues on the Tacx Neo, I finally gave in and returned it to my LBS. I figured that for a second trainer (I have a “normal” KICKR myself), a wheel-on design would probably suit the wife and son better, even if a little noisier.
So, the KICKR Snap turned up yesterday. Unboxing is the simplest thing ever, there’s nothing to do really, just plug in and go. As I’m used to Wahoo stuff I went straight to the utility and upgraded the firmware to latest. I then stuck my bike on, did a spindown test and a quick check on ride quality and reported power.
Seriously. What is it with the bike industry right now that no-one is capable of making a product that actually works ??
After a spindown calibration I set the wahoo app to ERG mode at 150W. I then settled into a nice 90-95 cadence. My first thought was “This is NOT 150W”. So I fired up my Stages app and as suspected, I was doing around 220W.
What followed was the usual desperation of a guy trying to make the product work as advertised, checking everything over. Its the same bike as I’ve used on a number of indoor trainers – the stages PM was spot on to the Tacx Neo and about 10W-15W different up from my KICKR (which has been “blessed” with power inaccuracy from day 1). I am using a brand new rear wheel with a Continental HomeTrainer II tyre (what I use on the rollers). I checked the Conti website and had the tyre at 110psi (Wahoo just say to use the mfr recommended pressure).
No amount of spindowns and fiddling changes the fact that the power readings are miles off.
I tried using TrainerRoad. No matter whether I use the KICKR Snap for power + control, or the KICKR Snap for control and StagesPM for power, the resistance changes are painfully slow.
See below. 3 Runs
Run1 : Just using the KICKR Snap with no fancy options, StagesPM disabled, no smoothing. What you can expect if you just own a KICKR Snap. As you can see, power fluctates a fair bit on the flat line, and when power changes, the resistance goes up quickly far too much and you end up riding a brick wall. See the 3rd increase in power, the target was 195W, I actually put 260W through it before it backed down.
Run2 : Gave up on any kind of power reading from the Snap, so used the Snap to control resistance but taking power from the StagesPM. I did not apply any smoothing as this makes resistance changes slow. Marginally better, but the same problem exists – the resistance is put up too hard immediately and takes a few seconds to back down.
Run3 : I chucked the Snap into the corner and rode the damn thing on my normal KICKR. Ah, bliss :)
As per usual with any cycling technology purchase, I have now opened a support ticket with Wahoo although I suspect this Snap will be returned to Wiggle.
Interestingly I thought the Snap made the same whine noise as the KICKR – mine does not. Apart from a “normal” sound of tyre on trainer and high speed whirring from the flywheel/shaft, there’s no whine.
Subjectively, Kickr Snap much louder than regular Kickr? For those of us in the USA who already own iphone/ipads, whatcha think about Kickr Snap vs Bushido Smart?
With one ride done, it seems quieter than the original Kickr.
I also noticed a significant lag in changing the applied resistance at transitions between intervals (maybe 1-2 seconds). Never noticed this on the original Kickr. Slightly annoying when running short intervals, but not a killer. The lag is the same at each end of the interval, so you get the prescribed length of effort, just a little out of sync with what trainerroad thinks it is doing.
I’m a little confused on the Ant+ FC-E protocol. I just purchased a Snap and have a Garmin 520. My understanding is that the Garmin would recognize this as an indoor trainer with “control”. It only picks it up as another power meter and I get power data on the Garmin but I don’t see where the 520 to Snap communication and control are. Did I miss something? Also, after the initial plug in, the firmware was successfully updated.
So – there’s been updated apps and time has passed. Did some spindown tests last night and a half hour ride on Zwift – I compared what Zwift recorded from the KICKR Snap vs what my stages power meter recorded onto my Garmin. Gotta say, within 5W-10W or so which is well within my acceptable tolerance for a wheel on trainer.
Today I did a trainerroad/sufferfest video to see what speed/accuracy the resistance changes are. Well me !!! if anything, a little FASTER than my normal KICKR. A fantastically smooth and well controlled power delivery workout.
Hopefully I haven’t just stumbled on a spindown test which has resulted in stars aligning for one day only, but if this is how the trainer is from here on in, I would thoroughly recommend it. Also makes no noise other than drivetrain clatter and a little bit of trainer tyre “whoosh whoosh”.
Here’s a comparison of the workout I did on my original KICKR and then the Snap. You could almost say “Snap!” :)
Hi Lee:
Seems like I have somewhat of a similar problem. I exchanged a newly purchased Powersync for the Kickr SNAP based on Ray’s recent reviews. Power readings are way off even after multiple spindowns. At recovery, power seems within 10 watts but when I amp up the Snap is anywhere from 20-40 W lower than my Powertap Wheel. So I did a similar Traineroad workout with power readings coming from the Powertap and Traineroad controlling the Snap. Terrible…..when I was supposed to go into low cadence of about 70 I was at my target power in the lowest gear with cadence of 48. Then when I was supposed to spin at 90 I was in the 50-28 combo at 95 with no gears left to upshift into. Curious if you had a fix with the beta firmware. The unit updated immediately after I connected it at first startup.
Well, on the last 2 workouts I’ve done, it seems to be very good indeed. The differences
a) The unit has had a reasonable amount of riding done; before it was “out of the box”
b) The app has been updated and I chose to do an advanced spindown
c) My lad rode it for half an hour (got it up to temp?) and I did an advanced spindown followed by a normal spindown.
d) 2.0.28 beta firmware
The guys at Wahoo told me that once you’re onto the beta firmware and have done a unit warm up with advanced spin down, that should be it; as far as they are concerned it should now be working. The advanced spindown is something you only need do once apparently as its more to do with setting the resistance levels inside the unit ie a hard calibration. The spindown you should do every time you change the bike or once in a while (esp if temperatures are changing).
I’m going to stick my bike on it today, do a 5 minute unit warm up, then an advanced spindown, normal spindown, then do a sufferfest video. I’ll compare the trainerroad power data to my stagesPM which I’ll record on my garmin. Fingers crossed :)
This evening I jumped on the Snap, did a 5 minute spin to just warm it up (no spindown) and was pleasantly surprised to see the power figures were quite reasonable. However given I had just put a bike on it and I wanted it to be as fair a test as possible, I did an advanced spindown followed by a normal spindown. Straight away I could feel the resistance had upped without even looking at numbers.
Ouch. Snap reports 100W, the Stages powermeter (and my legs!!) reported 200W.
Another advanced spindown. Same
Final try, advanced spindown with normal spindown. Same.
I recall that on the 10th when I did the advanced spindown the trainer set the brake level to 0.8. Today it set it to 1.0 for all 3 advanced spindowns. This is clearly the difference.
So right now it would appear to be a complete bit of luck that I ended up with an advanced spindown reducing the resistance and me getting a decent workout to follow it.
After 20 minutes of faffing around I gave up on the Snap and did my workout on my normal kickr.
It simply should not be this hard ! without a separate power meter to try and “calibrate” this thing you’d never have any idea how accurate the figures were. I think I’ll return it and get a Tacx Vortex instead.
So I just pulled out 2 Garmins, paired 1 to the Powertap and the 2nd to the Snap. Assuming the Powertap is the Benchmark, the SNAP readings were 20W higher at <100W. When above that the the SNAP often lagged.
2 very serous accuracy issues. I was able to hold a 3s power on the Powertap within a 10W range after I spun up and held a steady cadence. The SNAP was fluctuating significantly. And what seems like a big accuracy issue and not so much calibration….when I stopped spinning, the 3 second power on the Powertap zeroed within about 4 seconds. The SNAP was at 15-30, actually made have rose slightly from 24 to 29 and took about 10 seconds or more to get a zero reading.
I just got an email back from Wahoo support about the advanced spindown which I will try. If that doesn't do it, its going back. Accuracy is not 5% and responsiveness of the power readings seems terrible.
Just picked up a SNAP myself and did a short warm-up, spindown and check on a stead state ~170 W or so interval. Mine also seemed to be nearly 40 W low at this value — note my PT hub (G3) was showing the 170W and the SNAP was much lower.
I’m going to work with it a bit (longer warm up, perhaps play with load tightness?), but wondering from anyone, or Ray, has your SNAP “just worked” or does it take a little finesse in getting things right? Rays youtube walkthrough looks promising — is it generally that easy for everyone else?
I’ve also reached out to Wahoo for tips and tricks to get things rolling smooth ASAP — as much as I do enjoy experimenting to learn the best practice, in this case I’d rather just hop on and ride. Maybe an Advanced Calibration will fix me (once I learn what this is)?
FWIW, running latest release FW, but haven’t checked specific tire pressure or exact number of knob turns when mounting didn’t think either mattered much with a spindown test in place for calibration).
Essentially, if you happen to “chance” upon an accurate “Advanced Spindown”, then the unit works pretty well and the reported power figures are reasonable.
However I have found it to be complete hit and miss what “brake strength” the advanced spindown results in. On my trainer a figure of 1.79 I got the other day was close, the unit was over-reading slightly. I normally get a figure of 1.0 which renders the trainer impossible to use as it takes a 200W effort to get it reporting 100W.
Wahoo’s support consists of “latest firmware, do advanced spindowns” and thats it. Pretty clear their support guys have got nothing else to offer. Whether Wahoo genuinely believe that the 2.0.28 firmware and an advanced spindown is 100% successful, or whether they know its hit and miss and currently can do nothing about it – who knows.
Yikes…had pretty much decided on the SNAP during REI’s sale, but these posts give me pause. I’m a newb to all this and wary about getting into a mess.
If I understand correctly, without a separate, known-to-be-accurate device like a power meter, you just don’t know if this device is anywhere near being accurate?
What about the big-brother Kickr? Same problem.
I was hoping to get into this piecemeal, using a smart trainer to also be my power-meter until I get a separate power meter for outdoor rides. Any other way (other than a standalone power meter) to check accuracy?
I have had a similar experience with Wahoo support. Latest firmware, advance spindown, yada, yada…. I have yet to test this out after the advance spindown but Lee leads me to believe its just luck at this point.
Very frustrating to spend 30 minutes climbing a simulated 8% hill and discover your mean power output was 140W. I exchanged a PowerSync because it required a 10 minute spindown with their software for calibration prior to every ride but the numbers were spot on. I thought this would be simpler but now I have to remount my Powertap wheel to assure correct calibration.
I did a ~35 minute ride with several spindowns and an advanced spindown last night. I didn’t change wheel tightness during any of this, but recorded my results.
-I had a simultaneous recording of my PT and the SNAP going for comparison’s sake.
-I ran the SNAP in erg mode, generally at various settings… 100, 120, 140, 160, 260, 360. Maybe I tried a few other settings in there.
-At a few settings the SNAP itself was happy being 10W under it’s setting (that’s SNAP setting to SNAP reported power) — note that at all settings mine seems roughly 30W low. Spindown didn’t seem to affect me much, but I can say it made some small differences.
My advanced spindown showed a brake power of 1.33, I think.
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I understand it’s cheaper but don’t Wahoo know that there’s price points? The customers who will pay $850 for a trainer are almost entirely the same who will pay $1100 for a trainer. I don’t see how this adds customers.
Ray, you know more of the actual numbers in sales and prices so maybe you can give a better guess but it seems to me that the price point is more likely $500-600. Once you go over that (for a trainer), you’re likely looking at the same customers.
I am not so sure.
I have a KICKR, and being cheap, I would have opted for this model over the current version. I still want the features, but cheaper is better.
Next statement. I would be trying to workout how much not having to worry about training wheel is worth when it comes to my time, or training tyres, or (and I hope this gets covered in the full review) – Continuous drift and the power differences if the tyre is not the same pressure, or screwed into the same distance as previous. At least I know with the current model that it will be the same (depending on how clean the chain is). Some repeatability is the aim, afterall.
Is that repeatability worth $250? possibly. There is a lot to choose between the two. if the difference was another hundred dollars, then the question would be even harder.
In theory, the rolldown calibration takes care of any initial differences such as tyre wear, pressure or clamping force. Where Ray is talking about there being more drift with the SNAP vs. the original KICKR is that you now have more components (namely a wheel & tyre) to drift with temperature changes over the course of a workout.
(First, a minor correct, I should have had the KICKR price at $1,200 – fixed)
That said, I agree to a degree that $850 is on the steeper side given the Tacx offerings. But I think they’re essentially pulling the ‘Garmin card’ out, in that they know they have a more widely compatible product (in this case, with 3rd party apps) – so today they can charge a premium for it.
A year from now? Probably not. The biggest challenge Tacx has there is that they (Tacx) haven’t opened up any Bluetooth Smart control of the platform to 3rd parties, and the reality is that most tablet/phone based apps are using BT Smart, not ANT+, to control them.
You’re confirming my point. You are a customer of the more expensive Kickr and would instead have chosen the cheaper model. You would lose them some money but not help them gain a new customer. This is still the same price point for a customer like you.
There’s certainly a price point above you too. You probably wouldn’t spend $3000 on a Kickr. But this $850 would not make a person considering a mid-range trainer (typically in the $500 range) spend 70 % more to get this trainer.
I was replying to “CapeHorn” above, but the comments don’t show up nested that way for some reason.
I have to agree with don. I have been lusting after a KICKR for a while, and while the SNAP has everything I want, the savings of $350 doesn’t make me want to jump on it. In fact, it pushes me away from it because when I hit that price point of $850, it becomes less about saving money & more about getting exactly what I want. In this case, I would say that if I’m already willing to pay a premium for a trainer, why get a standard roller trainer with all the negative nuances (i.e. wheel slip) when I can get a KICKR trainer for just $350 more.
Pricing the SNAP at $599 or even $649 would make me jump all over it. But at $849, I may as well keep going up to $1199 & get the top of the line.
To be quite blunt, the more expensive unit is more than I am willing to consider at this point; but I am open to considering the less expensive model, especially since it lets me leave the rear wheel in place.
Let’s just say that my wife has a few pet peeves, including high ticket capital purchase items that she does not personally see the benefit of (my wife is not a triathlete, at least not yet, though I am trying to persuade her) and clutter (the ability of this unit to fold and stow is a definite plus).
As a consequence, Don, I would suggest that it is erroneous to assume that the market for one is also the market for the other. My openness to a sub thousand price tag is drastically greater than my openness to an over a thousand price tag. Essentially, my resistance becomes exponential once it crosses that threshold.
I agree. I have had issues with tire longevity on rear-wheel friction trainers…even when I follow the manufacturer’s instructions. The solution was a second wheel with a trainer specific tire. When you add in this cost, the gap closes further. In addition to that, consistency from workout to workout is a challenge because of varying tire pressure and constant calibration.
The price point needs to be wider to make the Snap a better overall value.
Totally agree with Drew W
Priced at $599 at Performance bike as a Cyber Monday special. In store only for this price. Details below.
link to slickdeals.net
Steven Lengua, appreciate better research and less rumor before posting. If you take the time to go to the Performance Bike website and actually read the Terms & Conditions of the coupon, Wahoo Fitness is among the excluded brands.
If it looks too good to be true, then in most cases it probably will be…
Thanks for the feedback. There are no specific exclusions for Wahoo on the receipt itself and that is what the clerks go by. I wouldn’t have posted it if I hadn’t bought it earlier for myself at this price. My receipt from the store is attached. Hopefully that is enough research for you? Maybe this deal is only for folks who actually find the too good to be true deal, score it and then take the time to share for the benefit of others. I’m more than happy with my purchase at the price mentioned previously, and I hope others can get to the store in time to get it. Happy Holidays.
Yeah, Performance always lists Wahoo as excluded on coupons/deals, but it never actually is (nor has been for years, despite also saying it was for years).
The coupon is live again today, so if anyone is interested go in store to snag this trainer. I wouldn’t pay $849 for it (imho), but for $599 I considered it and got it. The coupon when printed does not list any exclusions and so the clerk didn’t even check. If they give any trouble maybe showing them my receipt would help. I’ve never had any trouble at a PB shop, they’ve always been a stand up store. Good luck fellow cyclists!
Dang, thats a good price. Wish it was an online deal!
Steven, thats a good deal for sure, nice score. I did see that deal but figured after driving to the nearest store (Pasadena which is 90 miles round trip…so gas $), and paying tax (LA County higher than SD) I would have saved not a heck of a lot :/ . No tax onWahoo site (I was told) and free shipping. Almost did it anyways but am doing more research, but leaning towards the Snap. How do you like it??
Haven’t tried it yet =). Soccer season just ended for my kids so I’ve been able to get out and ride in the mornings. Season starts up again after new years so my weekend AM will be busy again, and I ride the trainer in the afternoon. I’m hoping I can simulate California roads and or race courses on the Wahoo. Not sure though. Figure this virtual ride thing is just going to get bigger and bigger. Thought I would jump in at ground level with a decent price.
I am jumping all over now since they are offering the certified refurbished for 579,00 no tax and no shipping cost.
wrong pict..lol
Who? Where? I don’t see anything at Performance Bike site.
STP
Oh–I see. It’s at the Wahoo site.
link to wahoofitness.com
You got it.. now the correct picture
I found a brand new snap on craigslist………$450. Should i go for it?
I have a wheel on Minoura trainer and never get wheel slip. Maybe your adjustment is off.
Hey Ray, knowing it is a pre-production unit, what is your qualitative feedback on the noise level associated with the trainer?
It’s pretty much normal, sounds in line with other tire-based trainers. I’ll figure out a way to record the noise better.
Hey Ray, very cool. Any thoughts on the noise this makes compared to the KICKR and other trainers? I live in an apartment so I need to minimize noise as much as possible. I’m always concerned my CycleOps mag is too loud at around 85 dB at 3ft. Thanks.
It seems comparable. The thing is with trainers is it’s all about two factors:
1) Speed of your wheel
2) Trainer tire
If you equalize those two factors, I’ve shown in past tests that virtually all tire-based trainers operate within the same very narrow dB range.
In the video you hear the sound being pretty awful, but that’s just the microphone. I’ll have to figure out how to more accurately capture it (either in the Cave, or by just temporarily recording it elsewhere).
How about this little piece of equipment? :)
link to amazon.com
Right, know that noise level is a common question, and one that is tough to answer in relative terms. True that the tire (tyre for the euros) and speed makes a difference.
What I have noticed is differences of sound levels at given wattage levels over speed of the wheel. 250 watts is very different from 500 watts of effort given the braking force the trainer has to produce to resist the spin – in other words a watts vs. watts measure in lieu of speed.
In general terms, my electric force Tacx “growls” much louder at higher watt levels, whereas the fluid Kurt Kinetics tends to “whirrrr” more linear with increased watts. And as an odd side note, the older rim trainer stays pretty level regardless of the watts, yet of course the braking force in this case is constant.
Wahoo has long promised that their app for controlling the Kickr would be user configurable “soon.” As it stands now, controlling resistance is on a separate data page from heart rate, one of the primary metrics of most/many workouts. Hugely inconvenient. Even without letting users create a custom data page, why not have a static one with resistance control and heart rate? This seems like a no-brainer.
Yeah, the Wahoo app is definitely a let-down when it comes to configurable fields. For me, I just use the app to control the wattage, but I use a Garmin to display the power and watch that.
When can we expect the full Epix review?
Epix is SO BUGGY, that I’d postpone it for at least a month. Just returned one to the store. It’s unusable.
couldn’t agree more. Some of the bugs I dont think can get fixed, its just hardware limitation (slow processor, not enough RAM)
Not getting this one to be honest. The price differential from original kickr isn’t high enough, I think people would go Tacx smart now that Tacx have finally woken up and opened the platform up.
Ray, lot’s of comments about power meter accuracy on the Kickr as it hasn’t got temp compensation. Have Kickr addressed on this one?
Great to read about coming products and great to have neutral reviews before they go on sale. Thanks.
Interested in the accuracy question, too, as there seem to be a lot of KICKRs out there that diverge a lot more than the claimed 2%, even with spin down and taking into account that the power meters they are compared to will often have some diversion too and possible beyond manufacturers specification.
My additional, related question would be whether they support hooking up to an external power meter for more accurate (or at least consistent) resistance control as they did with their firmware update for the KICKR?
My understanding is that same functionality is supported here as well, but I’ll validate.
As for temperature compensation, it does indeed have it (one can actually see it within the screen shots).
According to the comparison tables on Wahoo’s own website, the SNAP does not have 3rd party power meter support.
Ok, that’s interesting. So in theory this should be more accurate than the original Kickr? And presumably that also means Kickr will get that update soonish…
Interesting. I first read BikeRadar’s article on this new trainer, which claimed that “Aside from providing digital wattage information, the Snap functions like a standard trainer where the rider controls the resistance by shifting gears and changing cadence.” That certainly made the MSRP seem way high, but if it has electronic resistance control like the regular KICKR it makes much more sense. Still wouldn’t trade mine for a SNAP though!
Ohh and could you please tell Wahoo to hurry up and release a magnet-less dual-band speed sensor? I really don’t get why they don’t have one on the market already, all that should be required is different firmware for the RPM and a new snap-on mount that fits around a hub. Should be a quick and simple project!
Yeah, BikeRadar is confused.
the price point doesn’t seem competitive at all compared to the Tacx trainers. You can get the bushido in the uk for around £380 and the vortex around £250 – now the Tacx units have ANT FE-C which the major apps support I can’t see the advantage of the £850 snap (not a good name either !)
It doesn’t cost that much though, but Wahoo’s pricing is admittedly a bit strange. While I cannot verify Wahoo’s US pricing (the location selector on their site is broken) it seems MSRP for the regular KICKR is $1099 USD/€1099.99 EUR/£1099.99 GBP, same numbers even though the currencies differ quite a lot with the UK clearly getting the worst deal. The KICKR SNAP however is currently priced at $849 USD/€665.03 EUR/£569.49 GBP, which means the UK price (which includes VAT) is actually lower than the US price (which doesn’t), and European price is lower still! Someone must’ve screwed up their calculations…
It looks like on the US side the KICKR is actually $1,199, not the $1,099 I had.
I had the same problem as you (it kicks be back to the EUR site), so it looks like they raised the US price some while ago.
even at those prices, what do you get over the Tacx Vortex at £250 – apart from bluetooth support (which for me is irrelevant as I’m exclusively ant+) ?
the apps I use (zwift/trainerroad etc) support FE-C so no probs there and there is no way I’m putting out 2000watts so again a non-issue
For your case with Zwift/TrainerRoad, you don’t get much extra (well, it could be argued the SNAP is built stronger, which I’d agree with – whether that really matters is debatable).
But, if you use one of the other ~20 apps that don’t support the FE-C – then the Tacx might be a show-stopper.
Wahoo’s website is showing $1099 for the KICKR (accessed from a computer in the US):
link to wahoofitness.com
$1099.99 – 10 speed
$1199.99 – 11 speed
Since most newer bikes are 11 speed these days, it makes sense to default to that price point.
Can you run a 10 speed cassette on an 11 speed trainer?
I am leapfrogging trainers and bikes and so I want to make sure the trainer is backwards compatible until I get a newer bike?
Yes, though, it’s best to be in Erg mode where you aren’t changing gears. Otherwise, you’ll get certain gearing that won’t really work, but in Erg mode you can just find whatever gearing is silent and change the power as required.
It’s what I do sometimes when testing bikes that run varying configs.
it’s also just a standard cassette, so it’s easy to buy a low-end cassette with the right count. And it’s not like the proper gearing/tooth count matters..
I want a new Kickr, same as the old one, just quieter!
I’d replace mine for just quieter version, I hope they do this with a Kickr 2.
I’ve been looking at the Wahoo Kickr for a while as a means to use Zwift – which looks pretty cool.
But I’ve been between getting a Kickr or getting a Stages power meter and a fluid trainer.
Now there is a cheaper version of the Kickr I’m confused again – I might end up with both – or just as likely, neither.
Currently in the UK the kickr is £900, I wonder how much the Kickr snap is likely to be then?
Replying to my own comment.
It’s list price is £570. Now considering the Kickr list price is £1,100 and you can get it for £900, then I would hope the snap would come in under the £500 mark.
But why would/should the Snap be less than half the price?
(Competitors aside)
Well RRP it’s already going to be about half the price. Kickr is RRP £1,100 and Snap is RRP £570, only £20 off being half price, before you take into account any discount from RRP.
List price has been changed to £650!
So this doesn’t have an actual power meter like the proper Kickr then? Although the readouts in the video seemed accurate enough.
So, basically, the only difference between the KICKR and the SNAP is just that way you put your bike on it (and what comes as consequence, as less drag, more precise power measurement)?
Or is there something else I missed from your review?
Wahoo would argue that the KICKR (original) has a better feel to it – which is indeed true. Now that said, at some point most trainers still feel like a trainer. I’d say though that the KICKR SNAP feels better than the lesser priced Tacx Smart trainers though. And feels perfectly fine to me.
They’d also argue (correctly), that the KICKR original won’t ever have any wheel slip, which is also true. But at the same time, I haven’t seen wheel slip with the SNAP either (but have seen it with numerous other lesser priced trainers). Wheel slip is when you exert significant power to the trainer (such as a steep incline or a sprint), and the wheel ‘slips’, causing a slight jump.
Well, then it look like the perfect choice: same compatibility and width of options as the KICKR, almost same feel, but 350USD less…
Can’t wait to buy it…
Unless they also come out with an improved KICKR vNext
Have you ever tried hard climbing sessions in erg mode? Such as 30-30 sessions. Wouldn’t the increased resistance on the roller + more power to the pedal cause much more tire slippag? So far that seems to be the only thing that would make me want to get the original over the Snap, but then again, its almost $700 cad more…
Technically yes, but not really appreciably for 99% of riders. I do 30/30’s often, and usually in the 500w/100w range. If you’re doing them at something like 1,200w/100w, then yes, there’s far less issues with slippage on a direct drive trainer. But otherwise, nothing of concern.
From reading this review, it looks to me like a fatal blow to Racermate/Computrainer. I have a very old Computrainer which I was considering replacing with a Kickr. However the fact that my Computrainer is still functional and compatible with Zwift made me reluctant to spend the money. The SNAP looks like it will change my mind. It will also mean that I’ll be giving away the Computrainer for pennies at best!
So it has the “erg” mode?? if so, i cannot wait….. #binthebkool
Yes, it does.
Ray, do you know what technology the device used to measure power? Do they have a small LED and a photodetector on the cylinder like the Cycleops PowerBeam Pro? Thanks!
So torn between the Vortex Smart and something more expensive (like the SNAP or Powerbeam / Sync). For me, I feel like I’d keep buying additional power meters over a smart trainer if the price is >> $500-600. As nice as direct drive sounds, I’d love to avoid wheel removal too.
So far I’ve been using a Kurt Road Machine for ~7 years with a PowerTap for most of it. I’d like to avoid swapping wheels between bikes, but also an intrigued by ERG workouts.
When I saw the post pop into my feed I went wishing this would fill my needs. Maybe if someone offers a big discount coupon or eventually some refurbs I’d re-look at it. The KICKR can be found for as low as ~$900-950 at times so maybe I have a hope.
That all being said, I’m resorting to 90% trainer rides lately so maybe the trainer investment is worth it for me.
Also somewhat bummed by the 5% accuracy spec on the SNAP — that seems pretty significant. Is that after a rolldown calibration?
I wouldn’t want to be doing Over-Under Intervals with 5% power accuracy, as that probably blurs the lines between training zones.
I would like to use my Powertap for resistance control, so I would have purchased the Snap rather than the Kickr, but I really like the Kickr’s drivetrain engagement, heavy flywheel and stability.
The Kickr is compatible with more bikes than the Snap? Any tire width restrictions on the Snap?
Not compatible with 142mm hubs? I guess a refurbished Kickr at $950.00 is a better deal right?
I assume this means that there will be no possible price drops on the original KICKR in the near future as the SNAP will be their competitor product to the rest of the trainer market & the KICKR will remain in a class by itself (thus justifying the high price).
Do you anticipate any sort of price drop on the original KICKR, lest the SNAP really cannibalize sales, or do you think Wahoo is holding firm on that front? I’d really like to replace my aging Computrainer with a KICKR, but the price has always been an issue. I was hoping for an eventual drop, not a new product, but it seems those hopes may be dashed.
Ray, have you been testing this one? It’s not on the Tacx website, not in the magazines and nowhere else. Anyone an idea about pricing, specs, availability,…?
link to pedal-pedal.co.uk
Looks like Tacx may have solved the training noise level if the NEO is the real deal.
I don’t have anything at this time there.
More info: Tacx NEO Smart turbo trainer could redefine genre – BikeRadar
…talking about the skewer…
“But the implantation”. I think you mean implementation.
Glad you got something out of this article.
Ray puts in countless, selfless man hours to conduct and type up these in depth reviews without pay. I think he deserves a bit of leeway.
Ray is a big boy and is generally appreciative of any additional proof reading. (note that he’s already corrected the typo) Pretty sure he doesn’t need you to defend his honor.
Hi Ray. Hope you are doing well. Is it fair to assume that the P1 pedals have overtaken the place of vectors on your bikes for the time being. Cheers.
It has, though merely because I can’t put both pedals on at the same time. :) And right now I’m focused on the P1.
That said, I’m loving the P1’s. I don’t foresee going back to Vector after I’m done with the P1 testing (the reason is singular: Installation is un-screw-up-able and non-finicky).
I see this as less of a competitive product to KiCKR’s original trainer and more of a direct competitor to the PowerBeam Pro (list price is $999). So the $850 price seems spot on to me.
I will be interested in your full review to see how it compares to the PowerBeam Pro. The main difference I see between those two products is that the KiCKR supports both Bluetooth and ANT+ while the Powerbeam Pro gives you and either/or option when you purchase.
One thing I have notices on the PowerBeam Pro is that it has a harder time dealing with lower watts. So, for example, if you are a big dude with an FTP over 200, you don’t notice any problems because even your “easy spin” is going to be above 100. But if you are a little peep (like me), with an FTP under 150, then your “easy spin” just doesn’t quite match up. I notice this particularly when using TrainerRoad or Zwift where the ERG mode is on. It would be great if you could review or comment on that piece of the puzzle.
Yeah, I think the biggest (and it’s huge) drawback I see is the PowerBeam Pro’s inability to do dual. It’s just hard for me to recommend it as a single-protocol option these days. With so many apps on BT Smart, yet so much of the population on Garmin head units, it puts one in an awkward spot.
I have the Kickr (now hosting the wife’s bike) and the Kickr Snap, so I can comment on this. Putting the wife on the original Kickr was a good choice for the reason you are concerned about. With the Snap, when I used the Wahoo Fitness App, I couldn’t really get much less than 100 watts on it, no matter what it was set at. In Trainerroad (erg mode where software controls the power), I had some rest intervals at 100 watts and with normal cadence I could only get down to ~110 watts. If I slowed down, then I could get it to drop to 100. After my ride, as a test, I opened another workout and reduced the level way down, and I managed to get down to about 70 Watts.
Based on my experience, I’d say the original Kickr would be a much better choice for you than the Snap.
A separate point regarding cost. If you’re a Campy user, the price difference between the Kickr and the Snap works out to something closer to $500 when you figure in the adapter and another cassette. This is pretty significant and swayed me towards the Snap for the 2nd trainer.
Finally, the Snap is very quiet – in fact seems quieter than the original Kickr to me, though I haven’t had them going simultaneously yet.
Sounds like you are over-gearing the Snap. My wife and son are able to use the snap with less than 50W if need be. You just need to use little ring and big rear cog.
Thanks for the tip – I’ll keep it in mind if the occasion arises.
My KICKR has that same inline-power-connector as the SNAP. Or I misunderstand about what’s different there.
I really like the wheel-off style. I don’t worry about overheating tires, having tire dust, worrying about slippage, etc.
So it has the flexy cable? Interesting, my KICKR just has a hole in it, that I then plug the wall-cable into.
Here’s my KICKR, turtled, to show the power connector. It’s really short, I’m unsure if I prefer this or a “hole”.
link to dropbox.com
Interesting indeed, looks like they added it at some point along the line (my KICKR is from pretty early in the product life, perhaps 3-4 months after initial release).
My KICKR is the same as yours. I’ve used zip ties to prevent anything from easily pulling on the cable connecting into the unit. Even ended up using zip ties to affix the power brick to one of the rear arms. Works great!
What would be an even greater benefit is if the unit would reverse the electric draw and put power back into the grid. If I could reduce my electric bill, that would be another incentive to get on the bike and help payback the cost of the unit.
This should give you some perspective on what you are asking for:
link to youtu.be
Figures….. lol
I just ordered a KICKR this morning. I sure hope they are not going to come out with a KICKR 2 this year.
Anyone using a v650 to get data from an KICKR? Hoping someday Polar/Wahoo will give us an option to control a trainer from the V650 headunit.
Nicholas, I also have a V650 and am thinking of buying a Kickr Snap. Have you been able to get accurate data on the V650 and Flow website?
Just been back on the KICKR for the first time this Autumn and pleased to see that it now pairs and transmits power data to the V650.
For the extra $350, “spare” your rear tire and get the Kickr. That being said, I love my Kickr.
Can you comment on any difference in “noise” volume and pitch between the two? I briefly had a kickr and while the dB seem similar to Kurt kinetic I found the pitch higher so it seemed louder. Thanks
Dear Ray!
Could you please post the link (as you said it in the youtube vid) for putting a garmin mount on a smartphone.
Big fan!
Yours
Laszlo
Sorry, here ya go: link to blog.trainerroad.com
I’ve been planning on getting a KICKR this winter for basement training (and playing in Zwift). I’ve been holding off buying one assuming that there’s a good chance that there will be a KICKR v2 released at the end of the summer. Does this mean that there definitely won’t be?
I don’t know if there’ll be a v2, the v1 is near-perfect already.
Zwift is neat but for me the killer app is TrainerRoad with Sufferfest.
Yeah, I’ve been using TrainerRoad for 2 years and I love it. Thought it might be an interesting option to mix it up with Zwift.
I’ve been using a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine 2 with Wahoo Blue SC sensors. It’s a good setup and I’m still wondering if it’s worth the money to upgrade to the KICKR. I’m most interested in the controlled resistance so that I don’t have to pay so much attention to following the line in TrainerRoad.
Ben, if you don’t like manually adjusting in Trainerroad, the kickr is for you. I ride Sufferfest workouts right at my pain threshold, and having the “automatic difficulty adjustment” is both incredibly accurate and also allows you to focus on giving everything you’ve got. The only thing it doesn’t do well is Sprint repeats, like 5 or 10 second sprints, as it takes a few seconds to adjust. I can show TR workouts showing that if you want- though email/twitter is probably easier than comments here.
This! I have KK mag trainer for indoor winter rides with trainer road. Have the machine control the resistance for power levels would be great. Just not sure it would be $600 tacx great, $850 new kickr great, or $1200 original kickr great.
Changing a single gear on my trainer has very little effect once you are going. Trying to figure out how to get from 160 watts to 200 watts to 240 watts involves me testing out ahead gear jumps and mag resistance levels.
I don’t really see the use-case for these super expensive trainers with built-in powermeters, because:
1. You need an on-bike power meter anyway for outside
2. You really want that power meter to match your indoor work at high precision
I use Zwift a lot on my dumb trainer + power meter and am 100% satisfied. I do not want the resistance to change based on the course, ESPECIALLY downhills. If I want to change resistance I just…change gears. Let’s me control my training perfectly, which is the biggest advantage of indoor training.
I can see the KICKR, since it offers a better feel and doesn’t wear tires, but not this.
Doesn’t the controlled resistance also allow it to simulate low speed, high power hill climbing? I also have a dumb trainer and the only way to get to high power is to move to a high gear and get the wheel turning fast. Maybe it’s just in my head, but that rear wheel spinning fast is never going to feel like a low speed hill climb.
Yep, it lets you put out X watts, independent of “wheel” or pedal RPM. The watt measurement is essential to make the whole thing work. It’s not just putting you at a given resistance.
I don’t understand why any trainer manufacturers don’t use a spring to push the roller against the wheel. The tension of a heavy guage spring would be constant. Screwing the roller up against the tire… just seems to leave too many variables into the equation.
Likely because in order to get the force-on pressure, the spring might be too strong for some riders to push down onto when attaching their bikes.
I have a twenty-year-old TravelTrac with a spring. A latch holds the roller back as you put the bike on trainer, easy peasy.
Whatever spring tension is ok for 150psi super skinny tires can be way too much for fatter 90psi tires. Not everyone is using standard training tires. Also normal compression spring is not really constant pressure unless it is rather long. So you either have to go for a spring that is too long or use special purpose constant force springs. Either might complicate design and make it more expensive. Just an example. There can of course be other reasons.
Just a minor point unless you are highly space constrained (e.g. New York City apartment)… The original KICKR will take up less room without a rear wheel.
I really looking forward to it … where i find i M missing out is my ability to adjust to differing inclines…since where i ride is mostly flat … so looking for a trainer with ability to work with gps courses
jsut wish one could control SNAP resistance from my quarq not from internal; but then i will jsut learn the difference between the two inthe erg mode i guess
otherwise I was actually looking for a KICKR without the hassle of rear wheel change aka Computertrainer so I AM IN
With the Edge 520 it looks like Wahoo has their incentive to add ANT+ FE-C to the KICKRs?
Perhaps that note in the review about a major cycle computer manufacturer adding support for the protocol was intentional foreshadowing of today’s announcement?
;)
Actually, Wahoo didn’t know till 7:00AM EST this morning about it. But I called them at 7:01AM and we had a chat and they’ve confirmed they plan to support FE-C in the KICKR & KICKR SNAP. They’re just sorting through the exact timelines for that (logical given they only found out a few hours ago).
Minor point, although it may make a different in the comparisons for some people…
From Wahoo’s site it looks like the original KICKR has a 3% accuracy spec.
Yeah, I had asked Wahoo to validate/verify all the information in the tables and they said it’s good. I’ll circle back and ask which number is correct.
Hi Ray,
Do you think that Wahoo will now add support for the ANT+ FE-C protocol, given that Garmin have announced that the Garmin 520 will be supporting it?
Oops. Sorry, I didn’t read the comments properly and my question has been asked and answered. Feel free to delete mine :)
Is the power cord the same kind as the kickr? If one wants to buy a duplicate or second one, what should you look for? Wahoo retailers want $99 for a replacement…which seems like robbery.
Ordered this: http://www.parts-express.com/12-vdc-5a-switching-power-supply-with-25-x-55mm-plug–120-056
Is that an edge 25 with a watch strap I see? If so, could it be a good option for both cycling and running? Thanks for the great review.
Within the video there’s an Epix hanging down in between the other Edge units. Just doing data redundant collection.
Great news that they’ll support FE-C, this is definitely the way to go.
I’d like to think that this will become a de-facto standard within a year.
We just need to see some standardisation emerge for the BTLE side now …….
do you have to have an iPhone or will an iPad work for the connectivity and software?
As a KICKR owner, there is one aspect that no-one has really picked up on here, and that is the ability to share a trainer with the rest of your family and whatever bikes they may be using. As the KICKR is a wheel off design where the cassette must match your bike setup, this can be restrictive. My wife’s and son’s bike is a 9 speed, my daughter has a MTB and wanted to do some spinning over the winter – none of these bikes are compatible with the KICKR and none of them are really up for taking a wheel off. They use a simple Cyclops mag trainer instead. The KICKR is matched up with an old (busted frame) cannondale I have, so its pretty much a dedicated “spin bike setup” just for me. Food for thought……
There is another aspect to the original KICKR which again no-one really comments on. On your road bike, assuming you do decent mileage, your chain wears in tandem with your cassette…kinda….certainly when I then moved my bike to the KICKR it was very noisy and notchety. I ended up moving over the cassette too.
Its for the above two reasons that I think a wheel-on design will suit a very large number of consumers. Wheel off is really for dedicated high mileage athletes.
Lee – good points. A couple notes. my orig KICKR supports a MTB and a Road bike. There is a little adapter that came with it to adjust to the different spacing. You are probably also aware that you don’t need to or want to shift when in ERG mode (the normal mode most people use). The wattage is automatically adjusted to match the workout profile as your cadence changes (I use TrainerRoad and Zwift). So shift to a quiet mid-cassette cog and go. That could make it more compatible with various bikes? I use a single speed setup on my KICKR – a single cog with spacers, and put my old road bike on it. No brakes, no shifters, no cables, no derailleurs. Just a bare bones bike for use on the trainer. With a QR seat post, different riders can adjust sizing and use it.
True Dave, on my wife’s bike though I couldn’t get a quiet cog, the derailleur would need re-indexing onto the kickr cassette else it was always between cogs. It also slipped somethinh rotten in certain cogs, no doubt the difference between a 10sp cassette and 9 or 8 chain.
But in essence I guess the point I was making is that the SNAP is far more attractive to being shared, other than a training skewer change which is a once-only thing, you just bolt up whatever bike you have and you’re off.
Regarding the ERG comment, I agree, 99% of the time I use this. However when doing something like a sufferfest video via trainerroad, there are times where you want to get out of the saddle and would prefer a tonne more resistance, so changing to a higher gear…..but then in ERG mode you tend to over-power, the setup reduces the resistance and its all a bit “horrible” :) And of course there are those times when trainerroad is asking you for crazy watts and you’re simply unable to deliver. You grind to a halt and just lock up if you’re in ERG mode. With a basic resistance mode you can just accept you’re not achieving what was asked and take a breather.
Let’s assume you can get a Bushido Smart for $500, is the SNAP worth $200 more than the Bushido? $300 more? (assuming also that, once released, a partial deal could be found).
I’m having trouble wavering back and forth with pulling the trigger on a Bushido Smart vs waiting.
I generally only use TrainerRoad with an iPad or iPhone. a bummer is that i always need to connect my Wahoo key since i use a Kurt Road Machine and a PowerTap for Power. I’d like to go fully accessory-less on the iPhone (sans-wahoo key) but that won’t happen with the Tacx unless they open up their BTLE.
Such a tough decision… in general I believe the additional app support for the KICKR is not so important to me, but feel, reliability and robustness is important. I just can’t tell if the SNAP has more of enough of those areas to justify both waiting and $200-$300 extra cost!
Regarding kickr and FE-C, are they going to release a firmware update or is it a piece of hardware that must be added, therefore old kickr’s will not have that option?
Thanks
I called Wahoo on Monday. The snap does not currently have adapters to work with a 142mm thru axle. If disc brakes are in your future for 2016, be warned… this may not work. I also called Tacx and they don’t see any problems with 142 using the required adapters but will not work with Boost axles.
please let us know if the old kickr will need a piece of hardware for FE-C or is this just a firmware update. thanks.
It will be just a firmware update.
Outside of rear wheel v. no rear wheel preference, power accuracy and price this has all the functionality of the the KICKR. I’m looking for something that functions like my old CompuTrainer – you select a course and it changes the resistance as the course changes – and this appears to fit the bill. At half the price of a CompuTrainer, did I miss something (other than “lab accurate” wattage)?
If you could choose between this, the Kickr Snap, and the Tacx Vortex Smart, which would you go for? I’m torn between the two. Unfortunately the snap doesn’t come out for another month but the Tacx is available now. Is there much difference between them? Is it worth waiting for the Snap? Thanks!
Here in the UK, the Vortex Smart can be had for £285. We’re yet to see what the street price is for the KICKR Snap, currently its £650 from Wahoo. But thats a big difference. Perhaps a truer comparison is between the Bushido Smart as its a bit more heavyweight – thats £409 here, still a fair bit cheaper.
The KICKR demanded a high price as it was a solid piece of kit, one of the first (if not the first?) to market with a dual BT/ANT stack and resistance control. They did well to get in first and all of the popular apps supported their product first.
But now the rest are catching up. I think Wahoo might have to rethink their pricing. Tacx are hardly “new, unproven vendor” like perhaps BKool might be considered.
So the main advantage the KICKR SNAP has right now over the Tacx offerings is that all of the iOS (and many Android) apps support the KICKR/SNAP via Bluetooth Smart, whereas there isn’t yet a way for 3rd party apps to control the Tacx series via Bluetooth Smart (only ANT+). This isn’t a big deal for desktop apps or even many Android apps (since you can do ANT+ there), but is a big deal if you want an iOS app that doesn’t have ANT+ (if you or the app doesn’t have ANT+ support/dongle).
Thanks both. Thats useful. I’m really looking to get a setup where I can use trainerroad + Sufferfest OR Zwift and get the feedback from the device.
I’m a bit torn between the vortex and snap (possibly bushido but have seen some bad reviews).
I’m an average cyclist looking to upgrade to a smart trainer and get something a bit more fun/interactive to use indoors. I think I might go for the Vortex but I do like the look of the wahoo stuff.
Thanks again for the responses. Really appreciate it.
Both Zwift and TrainerRoad support ANT+ control of both product lines. So you’re good either way.
I hope you can do a review of the tacx neo. thanks for all your work ken
Yes, it is planned.
Yes, I would also like to see a review of the Tacx neo smart. I am close to buying a Kickr but may hold out for a review of the neo
You’ll see a preview this week, followed by a real review later.
How do you adjust the trainer to accomodate for different sized wheels and for different sized hubs?
The twisty knob at the base allows for changing the height of the roller.
Hi Ray,
I am looking to upgrade/augment my trainer from the Kinetic inRide to the Wahoo unit.
Couple of questions:
Besides wheel mount and cost and mass, it seems like the snap and original have the same functionality. Any differences I am missing? I was told by a LBS that the snap does not hold wattage specified like the original kicker, is that the case?
The idea of the unit holding the wattage for me is a great improvement over the inride unit as it allows me to concentrate on cadence only. Also the ability to ride segments online anywhere in the world. Any other ‘advantages’ you see over the inride?
Thanks Ray and keep up the great work!!!
Vince
Simply put, your LBS is confused – the SNAP holds wattage exactly like the KICKR. Otherwise, you’ve outlined the only differences.
Cheers.
Thanks, Ray! You actually answered my question as well. Functionally, the original KICKR and SNAP seemed identical but I felt I was missing some “gotcha” since there was a $350 price difference.
Thanks again Ray.
Hi Ray, do you have any stats on width and length of the unit? The main reason I’m asking is to determine whether the unit would fit in a suitcase easily. This is for when I travel, I can pack in one case and my bike in the other. Cookie
I just purchased the Kickr SNAP and have been ‘playing’ with it a couple of times; setting up and a quick spin to try the different modes etc…
A few questions to all the Wahoo users:
(I have a Garmin 510 that I use on the road with Vector pedals for power on the road. )
I noticed that when I tried a basic spin using the Wahoo app and then with trainer road later that the cadence is not indicated. I like to train to power and cadence, is their a way to read my cadence from my Garmin 510 set up? (I noticed on Ray’s excellent video review (@6:10) that cadence was not being measured as well.) Should I just run my Garmin 510 / Vector setup in parallel with the Wahoo app or TR software?
When using Trainer Road with preselected workouts: at predetermined power intervals in Erg mode, do I just leave the gear selection alone and not change it? What about cadence? Eg. I imagine that if i am in a certain gear (e.g. 50/17) and the power is 200W and cadence is let’s say 90RPM, that when a HIIT session kicks in at 275W, that in the same gear will my cadence automatically drop as the power ramps up? I’m used to using the Kurt Kinetic and changing gears to up the power and then trying to maintain a certain cadence to hold that power. (Muscular endurance vs neuromuscular training)
Thanks!
Hi Vince…..I assume you get cadence from your vector pedals as well as power. The kickr does not measure cadence. You’re totally relying on how clever the software you plan on using is here…..because you need to link both the kickr and the vector in order to get kickr control as well as both sets of data. In trainerroad this is doable as the kickr is added as a specific device, then you add in “power meter” for your vector. You then change the settings to use the kickr as the authoritative device for power. This only works on TR. The wahoo app on iOS would only let me connect to either a kickr *or* a power meter (stages) but not both together, I was told it was a restriction of the bluetooth stack, however it appears trainerroad on iOS allows you to……
Ideally run in erg mode and then cadence is irrelevant. You will choose a cadence you are comfortable with. So to answer your specific case about an increase of 275W, you can either keep the cadence the same and apply more effort, or spin your legs faster, its up to you. Given you are used to maintaining the same cadence, then do the same on the kickr, obviously the muscular effort required will have to increase to compensate.
Hi Lee,
Thanks for the reply!
I was told by trainer road to activate the cadence & sensor tab (it will pick up my GSC-10 Garmin cadence sensor) in the device tab….but it didn’t work that one time. Maybe I need to try it again…
Otherwise I will just run the Garmin 510, side-by-side, with TR/Kickr and read the cadence off the garmin unit.
Cheers!
Hi,
Just starting out in cycling and looking for a trainer so I can utilise TrainerRoad and other online resources.
What’s the consensus between Wahoo Kickr Snap, TACX Vortex Smart and now Bkool (now they have announced Ant+ control)??
The Kickr Snap is a little more pricey here in Aus (and hard to source) over the TACX Vortex smart and the BKOOL models.
I have a Garmin 520 hence the Ant+ control being a big feature.
Cheers.
Hi, first and most important thanks for the reviews. I did however have a question not mention on your analysis, can either a KICKR or a SNAP smart trainer communicate with the Tacx software (version 3 hopefully) or 4 but I will have to buy it. To follow both RLV and or Strava downloaded segments or routes?
Thanks,
Camilo
I may have missed this- so apologies if it’s already been answered…but what is it like to ride? I have a 17 year old cateye cyclosimulator that’s a joy to ride…feels better than just about all of the modern turbos I have tried. What’s the Snap like to actually spend time on? Forget the maths…what’s the feel like?
For this of you who were saying why wouldn’t you go Tacx- I had a Bushido for 4 days- worst experience ever. Spent more time configuring it than riding it. Even when it was working…a day later it decided not to work. It went back. V poor.
I am new to this site and apologize ahead of time if I am violating any protocols. I am in the market for a trainer and am torn between the Cycle Ops Power Beam and the Wahoo Kickr Snap. I’ve considered the Tacx iGenius but after reading the various reviews, have decided against it.
I’m an amateur cyclist. I ride 2-4 times per week, typically anywhere from 12 – 30 miles per ride, and I also spin at my local gym.
Any and all guidance appreciated.
Sometimes stuff just sits. As for me I’d get the Snap. I have a regular Kickr and have been quite satisfied. CS at Wahoo is first rate and the unit itself has been reliable. Wahoo apps function well. I don’t know why the sand would be any different.
Tacx has had software problems in the past so I am a bit scared of them.
Of course my opinion is just that and not fact.
Hello,
Question regarding variability of power measurements. On my “normal” Tracx Comp fluid trainer I get what seems like huge perceived variability with the resistance depending on exactly how tight I turn the roller adjustment knob. (using TrainerRoad’s virtual power and what I just ‘feel’). Even a quarter of a turn makes a difference. Same thing seems to apply to tire pressure, but that’s easier to keep consistent. I’ve been thinking of getting the Kickr or a power meter instead of the Kickr Snap for to eliminate these issues. Is my reasoning sound or I’m I just doing something wrong?
Your reasoning seems close, but I believe an ERG based trainer should be able to calibrate the effect of the “knob tightness” and tire pressure with a rolldown test and thus eliminate the variation by adjusting it out with the electronic brake unit.
Hopefully someone with more experience than me will chime in, but that is my understanding.
Still, of course, a direct drive trainer can clearly even further eliminate any concerns in this area… but at the cost of removing the wheel with each mounting and removal from the trainer.
Hi Ray,
Thanks as always for the great review. After much debate, I am now the proud owner of a SNAP, my first trainer.
My question, that I can’t seem to find an easy answer to, is what is the best way, either through the Wahoo app or a 3rd party to get my coach-prescribed workouts (from TP) done on the SNAP? On my first try the best I could figure out was manually changing the target in erg mode as I go. I looked at Trainer Road, but that seems to be for pre packaged workouts.
Would welcome any/all experienced riders input.
Thanks
Any of the Wahoo KICKR apps will work on the KICKR Snap, so I’d start there. TrainerRoad does allow you to create workouts using a workout creator. I’m not sure if there are any that allow you to download from Training Peaks.
You may want to try poking through some on the list here: link to dcrainmaker.com
Thanks. This helps. I think I’ll give Trainer Road a try, didn’t realize it allows you to create workouts (didn’t find that on their site).
Yeah, I didn’t think there would be anything that would allow a download from Training Peaks, since that’s essentially just text. But if someone figures that out, I’ll pay for it!
Appreciate the apps review – thanks for all of this.
if you are lucky owner of Garmin Edge 520 you can do it without any apps/PC/tablet. Just create your workouts in Garmin Connect, upload to Edge 520, connect Snap to Edge 520 via ANT+ FE-C (‘smart trainer’) and you are ready to suffer ;)
Ray….looks like your max wattage numbers are off for the Snap.
link to wahoofitness.com
according to Wahoo’s site, the max wattage is 1100 watts.
Unless I am reading this wrong…check it out.
Hi Ray,
Is there still an in-depth review on its way for this trainer?
Is there a minimum wattage that the kickr snap supports in erg mode? Depending on gearing, mine bottoms out in 80-100 range unless I shift into 34/25 which is fairly ridiculous.
I have found the same thing – not a great choice if your workouts frequently run in the sub-100 watt range. The original Kickr is better.
Have the same. I can only keep the ERG mode working when using a very small gear. Above 100W everything seems to work properly.
Have there been any vibration issues with these? Mine appears to have an out of balance flywheel.
I just got a KICKR with an out of balance flywheel as well. Wahoo tech support sent me a return label and will send me a new, tested, trainer. If you haven’t already, it’s worth sending them an email about the problem.
I have just received a firmware update (2.0.27). Is there any way to find out what it is for?
I am looking into getting the snap as my road bike is a nine speed and the changing of the cassette on the original kickr is just mindboggling to me.
So I have a ton of garmin stuff…. the 920xt heart rate speed/cadence sensors for the bike. My question Is will the snap or the apps pick up the data from my garmin accessories or will I have to get different accessories when I run training programs.
I am trying not to have a bunch of different things that I need to control….I just want to hook up the bike and go
I have just bought a Snap for the wife as she has a 9sp. And also, whilst my son has a 10sp, his indexing doesn’t line up with the cassette on my kickr and re-indexing is a bit beyond him.
The snap doesn’t “pick up sensors”. You run apps, whether its on a PC, Mac or Phone/Tablet. So then it depends on whether your sensors are ANT+, Bluetooth, or both.
OK, so having spent the last month fighting with the (numerous) issues on the Tacx Neo, I finally gave in and returned it to my LBS. I figured that for a second trainer (I have a “normal” KICKR myself), a wheel-on design would probably suit the wife and son better, even if a little noisier.
So, the KICKR Snap turned up yesterday. Unboxing is the simplest thing ever, there’s nothing to do really, just plug in and go. As I’m used to Wahoo stuff I went straight to the utility and upgraded the firmware to latest. I then stuck my bike on, did a spindown test and a quick check on ride quality and reported power.
Seriously. What is it with the bike industry right now that no-one is capable of making a product that actually works ??
After a spindown calibration I set the wahoo app to ERG mode at 150W. I then settled into a nice 90-95 cadence. My first thought was “This is NOT 150W”. So I fired up my Stages app and as suspected, I was doing around 220W.
What followed was the usual desperation of a guy trying to make the product work as advertised, checking everything over. Its the same bike as I’ve used on a number of indoor trainers – the stages PM was spot on to the Tacx Neo and about 10W-15W different up from my KICKR (which has been “blessed” with power inaccuracy from day 1). I am using a brand new rear wheel with a Continental HomeTrainer II tyre (what I use on the rollers). I checked the Conti website and had the tyre at 110psi (Wahoo just say to use the mfr recommended pressure).
No amount of spindowns and fiddling changes the fact that the power readings are miles off.
I tried using TrainerRoad. No matter whether I use the KICKR Snap for power + control, or the KICKR Snap for control and StagesPM for power, the resistance changes are painfully slow.
See below. 3 Runs
Run1 : Just using the KICKR Snap with no fancy options, StagesPM disabled, no smoothing. What you can expect if you just own a KICKR Snap. As you can see, power fluctates a fair bit on the flat line, and when power changes, the resistance goes up quickly far too much and you end up riding a brick wall. See the 3rd increase in power, the target was 195W, I actually put 260W through it before it backed down.
Run2 : Gave up on any kind of power reading from the Snap, so used the Snap to control resistance but taking power from the StagesPM. I did not apply any smoothing as this makes resistance changes slow. Marginally better, but the same problem exists – the resistance is put up too hard immediately and takes a few seconds to back down.
Run3 : I chucked the Snap into the corner and rode the damn thing on my normal KICKR. Ah, bliss :)
As per usual with any cycling technology purchase, I have now opened a support ticket with Wahoo although I suspect this Snap will be returned to Wiggle.
Interestingly I thought the Snap made the same whine noise as the KICKR – mine does not. Apart from a “normal” sound of tyre on trainer and high speed whirring from the flywheel/shaft, there’s no whine.
As an existing wahoo user, I know about the secret swipe so figured I’d check for beta firmware.
The GA release is 2.0.23. I updated to latest beta 2.0.28.
Certainly a TONNE better. Probably this is what Wahoo Support will advise anyway.
Just a casual general reminder – beta software is beta. It’s not finished. It may be fine, or it may inadvertently kill your pet goldfish.
True, but I hate that Goldfish.
Anyhow, the GA firmware simply does not work, period. So its Beta or bust.
Subjectively, Kickr Snap much louder than regular Kickr? For those of us in the USA who already own iphone/ipads, whatcha think about Kickr Snap vs Bushido Smart?
Thanks!
KICKR Snap near-silent. At least mine is.
With one ride done, it seems quieter than the original Kickr.
I also noticed a significant lag in changing the applied resistance at transitions between intervals (maybe 1-2 seconds). Never noticed this on the original Kickr. Slightly annoying when running short intervals, but not a killer. The lag is the same at each end of the interval, so you get the prescribed length of effort, just a little out of sync with what trainerroad thinks it is doing.
You on the 2.0.28 firmware ? I found the speed of change (ANT+ / PC / TrainerRoad) to be very fast indeed, faster perhaps than a regular KICKR.
I was running it with an iPad, so via Bluetooth. I’ll try it out with my Macbook and see if that isn’t better.
I don’t know which firmware it has, but it did update before the first use (in the last few days).
I’m a little confused on the Ant+ FC-E protocol. I just purchased a Snap and have a Garmin 520. My understanding is that the Garmin would recognize this as an indoor trainer with “control”. It only picks it up as another power meter and I get power data on the Garmin but I don’t see where the 520 to Snap communication and control are. Did I miss something? Also, after the initial plug in, the firmware was successfully updated.
So – there’s been updated apps and time has passed. Did some spindown tests last night and a half hour ride on Zwift – I compared what Zwift recorded from the KICKR Snap vs what my stages power meter recorded onto my Garmin. Gotta say, within 5W-10W or so which is well within my acceptable tolerance for a wheel on trainer.
Today I did a trainerroad/sufferfest video to see what speed/accuracy the resistance changes are. Well me !!! if anything, a little FASTER than my normal KICKR. A fantastically smooth and well controlled power delivery workout.
Hopefully I haven’t just stumbled on a spindown test which has resulted in stars aligning for one day only, but if this is how the trainer is from here on in, I would thoroughly recommend it. Also makes no noise other than drivetrain clatter and a little bit of trainer tyre “whoosh whoosh”.
Here’s a comparison of the workout I did on my original KICKR and then the Snap. You could almost say “Snap!” :)
Hi Lee:
Seems like I have somewhat of a similar problem. I exchanged a newly purchased Powersync for the Kickr SNAP based on Ray’s recent reviews. Power readings are way off even after multiple spindowns. At recovery, power seems within 10 watts but when I amp up the Snap is anywhere from 20-40 W lower than my Powertap Wheel. So I did a similar Traineroad workout with power readings coming from the Powertap and Traineroad controlling the Snap. Terrible…..when I was supposed to go into low cadence of about 70 I was at my target power in the lowest gear with cadence of 48. Then when I was supposed to spin at 90 I was in the 50-28 combo at 95 with no gears left to upshift into. Curious if you had a fix with the beta firmware. The unit updated immediately after I connected it at first startup.
Well, on the last 2 workouts I’ve done, it seems to be very good indeed. The differences
a) The unit has had a reasonable amount of riding done; before it was “out of the box”
b) The app has been updated and I chose to do an advanced spindown
c) My lad rode it for half an hour (got it up to temp?) and I did an advanced spindown followed by a normal spindown.
d) 2.0.28 beta firmware
The guys at Wahoo told me that once you’re onto the beta firmware and have done a unit warm up with advanced spin down, that should be it; as far as they are concerned it should now be working. The advanced spindown is something you only need do once apparently as its more to do with setting the resistance levels inside the unit ie a hard calibration. The spindown you should do every time you change the bike or once in a while (esp if temperatures are changing).
I’m going to stick my bike on it today, do a 5 minute unit warm up, then an advanced spindown, normal spindown, then do a sufferfest video. I’ll compare the trainerroad power data to my stagesPM which I’ll record on my garmin. Fingers crossed :)
Not good news.
This evening I jumped on the Snap, did a 5 minute spin to just warm it up (no spindown) and was pleasantly surprised to see the power figures were quite reasonable. However given I had just put a bike on it and I wanted it to be as fair a test as possible, I did an advanced spindown followed by a normal spindown. Straight away I could feel the resistance had upped without even looking at numbers.
Ouch. Snap reports 100W, the Stages powermeter (and my legs!!) reported 200W.
Another advanced spindown. Same
Final try, advanced spindown with normal spindown. Same.
I recall that on the 10th when I did the advanced spindown the trainer set the brake level to 0.8. Today it set it to 1.0 for all 3 advanced spindowns. This is clearly the difference.
So right now it would appear to be a complete bit of luck that I ended up with an advanced spindown reducing the resistance and me getting a decent workout to follow it.
After 20 minutes of faffing around I gave up on the Snap and did my workout on my normal kickr.
It simply should not be this hard ! without a separate power meter to try and “calibrate” this thing you’d never have any idea how accurate the figures were. I think I’ll return it and get a Tacx Vortex instead.
So I just pulled out 2 Garmins, paired 1 to the Powertap and the 2nd to the Snap. Assuming the Powertap is the Benchmark, the SNAP readings were 20W higher at <100W. When above that the the SNAP often lagged.
2 very serous accuracy issues. I was able to hold a 3s power on the Powertap within a 10W range after I spun up and held a steady cadence. The SNAP was fluctuating significantly. And what seems like a big accuracy issue and not so much calibration….when I stopped spinning, the 3 second power on the Powertap zeroed within about 4 seconds. The SNAP was at 15-30, actually made have rose slightly from 24 to 29 and took about 10 seconds or more to get a zero reading.
I just got an email back from Wahoo support about the advanced spindown which I will try. If that doesn't do it, its going back. Accuracy is not 5% and responsiveness of the power readings seems terrible.
Just picked up a SNAP myself and did a short warm-up, spindown and check on a stead state ~170 W or so interval. Mine also seemed to be nearly 40 W low at this value — note my PT hub (G3) was showing the 170W and the SNAP was much lower.
I’m going to work with it a bit (longer warm up, perhaps play with load tightness?), but wondering from anyone, or Ray, has your SNAP “just worked” or does it take a little finesse in getting things right? Rays youtube walkthrough looks promising — is it generally that easy for everyone else?
I’ve also reached out to Wahoo for tips and tricks to get things rolling smooth ASAP — as much as I do enjoy experimenting to learn the best practice, in this case I’d rather just hop on and ride. Maybe an Advanced Calibration will fix me (once I learn what this is)?
FWIW, running latest release FW, but haven’t checked specific tire pressure or exact number of knob turns when mounting didn’t think either mattered much with a spindown test in place for calibration).
To be continued…
Essentially, if you happen to “chance” upon an accurate “Advanced Spindown”, then the unit works pretty well and the reported power figures are reasonable.
However I have found it to be complete hit and miss what “brake strength” the advanced spindown results in. On my trainer a figure of 1.79 I got the other day was close, the unit was over-reading slightly. I normally get a figure of 1.0 which renders the trainer impossible to use as it takes a 200W effort to get it reporting 100W.
Wahoo’s support consists of “latest firmware, do advanced spindowns” and thats it. Pretty clear their support guys have got nothing else to offer. Whether Wahoo genuinely believe that the 2.0.28 firmware and an advanced spindown is 100% successful, or whether they know its hit and miss and currently can do nothing about it – who knows.
Yikes…had pretty much decided on the SNAP during REI’s sale, but these posts give me pause. I’m a newb to all this and wary about getting into a mess.
If I understand correctly, without a separate, known-to-be-accurate device like a power meter, you just don’t know if this device is anywhere near being accurate?
What about the big-brother Kickr? Same problem.
I was hoping to get into this piecemeal, using a smart trainer to also be my power-meter until I get a separate power meter for outdoor rides. Any other way (other than a standalone power meter) to check accuracy?
TIA.
STP
I have had a similar experience with Wahoo support. Latest firmware, advance spindown, yada, yada…. I have yet to test this out after the advance spindown but Lee leads me to believe its just luck at this point.
Very frustrating to spend 30 minutes climbing a simulated 8% hill and discover your mean power output was 140W. I exchanged a PowerSync because it required a 10 minute spindown with their software for calibration prior to every ride but the numbers were spot on. I thought this would be simpler but now I have to remount my Powertap wheel to assure correct calibration.
Further info…
I did a ~35 minute ride with several spindowns and an advanced spindown last night. I didn’t change wheel tightness during any of this, but recorded my results.
-I had a simultaneous recording of my PT and the SNAP going for comparison’s sake.
-I ran the SNAP in erg mode, generally at various settings… 100, 120, 140, 160, 260, 360. Maybe I tried a few other settings in there.
-At a few settings the SNAP itself was happy being 10W under it’s setting (that’s SNAP setting to SNAP reported power) — note that at all settings mine seems roughly 30W low. Spindown didn’t seem to affect me much, but I can say it made some small differences.
My advanced spindown showed a brake power of 1.33, I think.
What is this “advanced spin down” you speak of? I can find no information about it – just the normal spin down calibration.
In the Wahoo fitness app, go to sensors and click on your Snap, then…..
Thank you.