Huge Fall Sale: 20% off All Trainers & Most Power Meters, $100 off Fenix 5, GoPro Hero6 deal!

It’s that time of year again! The now annual 20% off sale.  Now technically, it’s semi-annual since it happens now and in the spring.  But I don’t think anyone’s complaining about the chance to buy a brand new just released trainer for 20% off.

No matter what you call it, there are some amaze-balls deals in here.  And while my title says all trainers and almost all power meters, the reality is that this applies to boatloads more devices/products too. More about your imagination than anything in finding solid deals.

To briefly back up: Historically speaking we see the biggest sports tech sales clustered in two timeframes: November (up to/around Black Friday), and May. It’s now November, and last weekend we saw companies start to announce sales.  Plus we’ve seen some Black Friday ads start to appear (nothing earth-shattering yet in the sports tech world).

In general, sales fall into two buckets:

A) Retailer driven sales
B) Manufacturer driven sales (specified by the manufacturer, but then sold through retailers)

Within the US, manufacturers have to approve virtually all sales, to stay compliant with MAP policies (Minimum Advertised Price).  Said MAP concept doesn’t exist elsewhere.  So in the case of the Garmin sales below, those fall into bucket ‘B’ above.  Whereas everything else in this post falls into bucket ‘A’ above. Make sense?  Good.

Garmin Fenix 5 & Edge 820 Sale:

So we’ve got one major sale here being driven by Clever Training for 20% off, though we’ve actually got a secondary Garmin sideshow sale going on, which I’ll briefly cover first – because it’s pretty solid!  The Clever Training 20% deal starts TODAY (right now), but the Garmin deals start TOMORROW/FRIDAY, November 10th, and essentially run through Christmas.  These do NOT require any VIP deal, but are straight up discounts available starting tomorrow:

Garmin Fenix 5S – $100 off (Amazon/Clever Training)
Garmin Fenix 5 – $100 off (Amazon/Clever Training)
Garmin Fenix 5X – $100 off (Amazon/Clever Training)
Garmin Edge 820 Cycling Computer (the mapping one) – $100 off, down to $299 for base! (Amazon/Clever Training)

I’m going to let Captain Obvious point out that this is the first time we’ve seen the Garmin Fenix 5 on sale, and Garmin didn’t disappoint here.  Even more is that deal on the Edge 820 actually, which is also incredibly solid – that’s a mere $50 more than the non-mapping Edge 520.  This is pretty much Garmin giving Wahoo the middle finger (after Wahoo did that courtesy to Garmin all summer).  I wouldn’t expect an Edge 820 replacement anytime soon (it’s only been out just over a year).  And while Garmin has historically announced Fenix series refreshes each January (alternating major or minor, with major happening this year), I’m not as convinced that we’ll see that happen this upcoming year per historical norms.

Plus, these two that already started last weekend:

Garmin FR735 Multisport Watch – $50 price reduction (Amazon/Clever Training)
Garmin FR235 Running Watch – $30 price reduction (Amazon/Clever Training)

Note that this being the start of the holiday sales period, things will obviously come into play over the next three weeks.  However, I can say incredibly confidently that you won’t see any deals greater than 20% off for the eligible items listed below in the VIP sale.  You’ll likely see individual watches/bike computers go on sale, maybe maxing out around 30% or so, but since none of those are eligible for this sale, it doesn’t much matter in this context.

GoPro Hero6 Black & Hero5 Black Deals:

Clever Training is running two GoPro deals, both of which are solid, but the Hero6 one is unheard of for a camera that just started shipping 38 days ago!

GoPro Hero 6 Black + 32GB MicroSD Card + $75 CT Points credit: $499
GoPro Hero6 Black In-Depth Review here!

In this case you could use that $75 CT points credit to buy a pile of extra batteries, something like the 3-Way pole, the shorty stick, or any number of other GoPro accessories.  Or socks.  Your choice.

GoPro Hero 5 Black + 32GB MicroSD Card + $50 CT Points credit: $399
GoPro Hero5 Black In-Depth Review here!

Really important for both of these: You MUST choose the bundle from the drop-down list (so you get both the SD card and the credits back)!

Neither of these GoPro deals require the VIP program, anyone can get them!

Clever Training 20% VIP SALE:

In this sale, each Clever Training (CT) VIP member is given a coupon code (BFVIP) that’s good for 20% off a single non-sale item including all trainers and almost all power meters.  It doesn’t matter if that item is the PowerTap P1 pedals, or just gel packets.  Your choice, but it’s only available to CT VIP members.

There are a handful of limitations, most notably that it’s not valid on Garmin stuff, GoPro, Fitbit, and one or two others I list down below in the restrictions.

With that in mind, there are some incredible deals to be had for trainers and power meters here – or other high-value items.  Especially new trainers and newly released power meters, even more so going into trainer season.  Here’s some quick guidance on both categories:

Power Meters: You’ve seen all there is to see on new power meter announcements for now, as well as well into next spring (or beyond). The next time we’ll see meaningful power meter announcements is usually in April, clustered around Sea Otter (usually for shipping months later).  So basically – if you want a power meter for this year and want to save 20%, it won’t get better than this anytime soon.  If you’re looking at a pedal based power meter, check out my recent post on it.  And if you’re looking for any power meter at all, be sure to check out my 2017 Power Meter Guide here.

Trainers: This is super simple – everything is out, and don’t expect anything new till at least next summer (likely July).  And even better is that everything is also available these days, or with only minor backorder queues.  Unlike past Fall seasons where new trainers took many months to materialize (like last year), companies are largely on top of it this year.  Wahoo has had their new trainers available since Day 1, and Elite also has had their new stuff shipping since late July (albeit, heavily sold out, so some minor delays exist).  Either way, definitely check out my full 2017-2018 trainer guide here!

The sale is members only, but it’s simple to get started:

  1. Sign-up as a Clever Training VIP Member here. Complete that first.
  2. Then come back and pick your item of choice out (see below list as starter point).
  3. Add members-only coupon code (BFVIP) upon checkout to save 20%.
  4. Enjoy gadget.

Update: For Black Friday, everything is the same except the timing is 8AM till 4PM on Friday November 24th only, US Eastern Time.

There are too many deals to list, because obviously that’d be tens of thousands of items that Clever Training carries, even running shoes and other sports gear.  But you can find all trainers Clever Training carries here on the trainer landing page (it’s basically everyone).  ALL trainers listed qualify for the sale!  Yes, all of them!


You can find all power meters Clever Training carries here on their power meter landing page.


The only power meter excluded from this sale is Garmin Vector 3.  Also, in case you’re wondering, the Wahoo KICKR CLIMB isn’t available for pre-order by anyone (including Wahoo), hence why it’s not available to buy. [Update: And for Black Friday, all Wahoo gear is excluded.]

I’m going to call out the most notable ones in the table below:

DCR Favorites - Fall 2017

ItemYear Announced Regular Price Review/Related Post
4iiii Power Meters2015-2017$399 DCR Post Here
Favero Assioma Power Meters (aka BePro Gen2)2017$799 DCR Post Here
Coros Linx Smart Helmet (what I use)Late 2016$199 DCR Post Here
Elite Drivo Trainer Late 2016$1,299 DCR Post Here
Elite Direto TrainerSummer 2017$899 DCR Post Here
Elite RampaLate 2016$649 DCR Post Here
CycleOps HammerLate 2016$1,199 DCR Post Here
CycleOps MagnusLate 2016$599 DCR Post Here
Lezyne Super GPS Bike ComputerMid-2016$149 DCR Post Here
Pioneer Power Meters2015-2017$499 DCR Post Here
Polar M460 GPS Bike ComputerApril 2017$329 DCR Post Here
Polar M600 GPS Android Wear WatchLate 2016$329 DCR Post Here
PowerTap C1 Power Meter2015$699 DCR Post Here
PowerTap P1 Power Meter Pedals2015$999 DCR Post Here
Suunto Sparies Series (Ultra/Sport/Wrist HR)2016-2017$329 DCR Post Here
Suunto Spartan Trainer Wrist HR2017$277 DCR Post Here
Stages Power Meters2015-2017From $529 DCR Post Here
Stages LR Dual Power MetersLate 2017From $999 DCR Post Here
Stages Dash Bike GPS2017$299 DCR Post Here
Tacx Flux SmartLate 2017$899 DCR Post Here
Tacx NEO Smart 2017 EditionLate 2016$1,599 DCR Post Here
Tacx Bushido Smart2014$799 DCR Post Here
Tacx Vortex Smart2014$549 DCR Post Here
Velocomp PowerPod Dual ANT+/BLEFall 2017$299-$325 DCR Post Here
WatTeam PowerBeat Gen2 DualFall 2017$399 DCR Post Here

So you’re probably wondering about that VIP requirement?  That’s basically akin to what REI does with their twice-yearly members-only sale.  Except in this case the Clever Training VIP membership only costs $4.99.  And the proceeds of that go to ‘Girls On The Run’, a running focused charity.  So it’s basically a win-win.  You get a massive savings, and an awesome charity gets supported.

And of course, your gadgetry purchase helps support the site here (as all Clever Training purchases do).

Frequently Asked Questions:

Here’s what I expect to be a few frequently asked questions:

How many items can I get a discount for?

One item. Just one, and only one.

Is this per household?

No, it’s one item per member (per human).  Thus, if you have multiple unique VIP members in a household, then you can have multiple people.  You can sign-up to be a Clever Training VIP member here.  I explain more of the details here.

Which brands doesn’t it work on?

At this time, it’s not valid on Garmin (including Vector), GoPro, and Fitbit.  Also, the Wahoo bike computers (ELEMNT/BOLT/MINI) and Wahoo Desk are excluded.

In the cart it says it doesn’t work?

Validate that you only have one item in the cart, and that it’s not one of the above listed items.  Also, validate that you’re a VIP member first.

Do I get VIP points on top of this?

No, since it’s a large sale item. No double-dipping here.

Are there some fancy details I can read somewhere?

Yes, right here (middle of page, some text).

When does this end?

Black Friday Update: Everything is the same except the timing is 8AM till 4PM on Friday November 24th only, US Eastern Time.

November 18th, 2017 at 11:59PM US Eastern Time.  However, I’d really stress to get orders in now. You’re a million times better off getting your order in and canceling if you change your mind, than waiting.  This isn’t so much a sales pitch, but just word to the wise (be it inventory, etc…).  Clever has done a good job stocking up (containers worth!) based on what demand looked like last year for this sale, but it’s always hard to know.

What happens when it ends?

It’s over. End of the road.  Time to eat turkey for Thanksgiving.  Don’t do Thanksgiving? Fake it – eat Ben and Jerry’s Ice Cream.

What about Europeans and CT Europe?

In this case, it’s a Clever Training USA-specific sale, though per the next item some things can be shipped internationally.  In the case of Clever Training UK/Europe, you get 10% off all year round on everything, whereas the US folks get caught up on the whole MAP thing I mentioned earlier on.  Still, they’re trying to work through some Europe specific sales for the holidays.

Is shipping free?

Yes, US shipping is free as long as your order is over $49.  For items that can be shipped internationally, it’s $29 flat rate.  Generally speaking, trainers can’t be shipped internationally.

Is this the end of the FAQ section?


Phew – there ya have it! Go forth and enjoy.  And feel free to drop any questions you have down below on recommendations, etc… I’d be happy to try and help ya out.  Thanks for the support!


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  1. AM

    Boom! Tax Neo on the way, awesome deal! Now if someone would just buy my computrainer ; )

    Thanks Ray.

  2. Sylvester Jakubowski

    Elite Direto incoming, thanks Ray & CT.

  3. Erik

    Thanks Ray!

    For the 20% VIP discount, you mentioned that Garmin is not eligible. Do you think that Clever Training will allow the VIP discount on Garmin later? Or do you anticipate FR935 getting any discount at all?

    • No, the VIP 20% discount isn’t applicable to Garmin this time. You can still get the 10% back though via points with it, which does work with Garmin.

      I do not anticipate any FR935 sales this year.

    • Andrew M

      Well, there’s a implicit recognition by Garmin of the F5’s sensor connectivity issues.

    • I wouldn’t really consider that an implicit recognition. First off, they’ve explicitly stated they’re aware of the issues, and that in a nutshell there’s nothing they can do with the current hardware.

      Also, one has to remember the Fenix 5 was announced 4 months earlier. Also, the sale is actually likely more of a widespread play than a sports focused one. One has to remember that the vast majority of Fenix sales these days aren’t endurance sports athletes that care (or even know) about the FR935. They’re mostly regular people that like the look of the watch and the features, along with the longer battery life. By going with a Fenix sale over a FR935 sale, they can likely get more mainstream/big box publications/retailers/etc… to pick it up.

    • Michael Coyne

      Wait, does it not give you 20% points back if you try to buy a Garmin/Wahoo device using the code? I could’e sworn that’s how it worked in the spring…

    • Nah, exact same logic as spring. For those Wahoo items that worked (trainers mainly), you got 20% off the item. For all other Garmin/Wahoo items you got/get the 10% back in points still, but not the bump.

  4. Thomas

    Hi Ray,

    What about the European readers. Will this VIP code work as well for the UK website of Clever Training?
    Do I have to buy the DCR membership on the US webside because I could not find a VIP item on the UK website.
    How will that work? Thanks

    • David Wilson

      Yes, keen for an answer on this too. I’ve been holding out for the November sales for a Fenix 5, will the $100 (£100?) discount appear on the Clever Training UK site?

    • I talk about it a bit in the FAQ section. I don’t expect (but could certainly be surprised) to see a UK discount here. The challenge is that pricing is determined within a country/region, and there’s zero cross-over/coordination between regions on pricing (i.e. Garmin US and Garmin EMEA). :(

    • David Wilson

      Thanks. I wasn’t sure whether that FAQ was trainer specific. The 10% does make the Fenix 5 the best deal at the moment that I’m aware of. I’ll weigh up the buzz of buying new tech against playing the cyber Monday discount announcement waiting game.

    • Yeah, with the Fenix 5 deal, Garmin is nicely running that through Dec 24th, so you have a bit of time there. I don’t expect them to one-up themselves, because then their retailers will kick Garmin in the balls over returns/re-processing/etc…

  5. Thomas

    Ok, got it… was too fast with scrolling down… sorry ;-)

  6. Tosin M. Akinmusuru

    Assioma!!! Soon it will be mine.

  7. gingerneil

    Ignore the email – hasn’t seen this post!
    Are we likely to see any gopro hero 5 discounts?

    • Yes, it looks like a number of retailers are running GoPro Hero5 Black for $50 off + a gift card type scenario, for Black Friday. I suspect CT would follow that since it looks like it’s a system-wide type sale.

  8. HR

    So if you aren’t VIP you should first buy VIP, log in with that and then the code will work?

    • Yes. Get the VIP first and save 5 bucks on your next order (making VIP free). You also get free expedited shipping as well, but if you’ll get it if you combine it with thre rest of your order as well.

    • HR

      I’m in Australia so still have to pay shipping… But I now have a WattTeam PowerBeat Dual on the way :)

    • Yup, at Zlatko says, you’ll need to add VIP to your cart and get that all settled. Normally you can do VIP + purchase in one shot, but I’m not sure off-hand if that works to do VIP + Purchase + Coupon in one shot (I’ll check here in a few hours with the CT US folks wake up).

      But either way, the whole process only takes a few moments. And then from here on out you’ll get 10% back in points on everything, even Garmin/GoPro/etc stuff.

  9. Nayan Mehta

    Hi Ray, thanks for this post…

    can we expect discounts on Garmin forerunner 935 ?

    • I would not expect any FR935 discounts this year. You can still use the DCR/CT VIP program to get 10% back in points though. So basically if you did that you’d then have almost enough points for something like the Garmin RD Pod for running power coming up shortly. Plus, supports the site and all that.


    • Stuart

      Hang on. Wait. They’re bringing out power for running?


      (I… _may_ be a gadget freak…)

      Bit of a shame that the Vector 3 isn’t included in the sale, but I can’t say I’m surprised. Maybe in the autumn sale. (No, this one’s the spring sale. You northern hemisphere types have your seasons backwards. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it. ;) )

    • Nayan Mehta

      Hi Ray,

      Congratulations for the baby.

      I’ve bought FR935 through CT VIP membership. looking forward to use it.



    • Thanks! And thanks for the support too!

  10. Welp, I feel like a fool. I ordered Wahoo Kicker Snap earlier today (after the great comparison piece, and the review article) and missed out on quite a bit of savings. Hopefully, Clever Training can mend my order.

    • Seeing as it likely hasn’t even shipped yet, I’m sure they’ll be able to help ya out.

    • I called Clever Training this morning. Their support person was friendly and got me taken care of. In five minutes I had my refund and everything else set to ship this evening. One thing to note is that shipping times for big items takes a bit longer than 2-3 days due to their weight and size.

  11. Deepak Rao

    Thanks. Just ordered the pedals.

    Wonder if the crank length issue and Wahoo has been sorted out yet?


    thank you… I’m buying the Assioma, on your recommendation… looking forward to use it!!!

    • Enjoy, and thanks for the support!

    • Andrew M

      Yep, just ordered the Assioma’s myself (especially with Ray’s reinforced recommendation into today’s Power Meter Buyers Guide) – I’d been hanging out for the 20% discount.

      My budget only runs to single side at the moment, but hopefully I can upgrade to L/R next year.

      Now I’ve just gotta wait for the backorder.

  13. Andrew

    Think we’ll see a response from Wahoo for the Bolt? Kinda bummed that’s excluded. I’m pretty turned off the 820 from what I’ve read about the touch screen.

    • Hard to say. I wouldn’t be surprised to see something minor (i.e. like $25 off), but I’m not sure. I think the main ELEMNT obviously looks awkwardly priced right now at $329.

    • Andrew

      Thanks. Not sure if this says more about Wahoo or Garmin but do you think the 820 is worth $40 more than the Bolt as of tomorrow? From what i’ve read Garmin can still be buggy with Nav and touch. Nav is technically more in-depth since you don’t need a phone to redirect/pick a point. But if its a pain in the neck to use then is it really worth it?

    • I think the touch is a million times better than it was 18 months ago for most people. Also, it’s given them 18 months to sort out manufacturing consistency issues (which is basically what caused much of the touch issues that weren’t resolved via firmware).

      I use one all the time, and sure, I can navigate the Edge 520 faster with physical buttons, but I suspect most people can’t. I’d put the Edge 820’s current touch screen in the state of: “Mostly good, but occasionally you just lightly shake your head for a few seconds and move on to whatever it was you were doing.”, if that makes sense.

      If I compare the two (Edge 820 @ $299 vs Wahoo BOLT), I’d think Wahoo would have to counter to $199 with the BOLT to get me to shift a recommendation there. Else, with the units being so competitive, the $50 extra for the Garmin gets you a bunch more features (especially full turn by turn re-routing, plus other things) that make it worthwhile. Whereas if there was magically a $100 difference, then that’s a head turner too.

    • Andrew

      Grrr. I figured you’d say that. Garmin’s bank account thanks you.

    • Jeff K

      But the wahoo bolt is 200 with the 20% discount and the 820 doesn’t get the discount, so it really is 300 vs 200. Am I missing something?

    • Jeff K

      Just answered my own question: the sale doesn’t apply to the bolt. : (

  14. Geoffrey

    Please 20% of the Direto for European customers…..pretty please!!

  15. Kevin Klasman

    I see 2 VIP memberships on the CT site…CT VIP and DCR VIP. Both with the same starting price, with the DCR VIP having the better sale. The link in this post lands on the DCR VIP membership page, so I presume that’s the one to choose, right?

    • Yup, indeed, the link* costs $5 versus $20. It’s the exact same membership, but just a better deal for DCR readers.


  16. Josh

    Ray, Due to my version of the DCR cave, I need a trainer that is SILENT and just works. It’s clear based on your review that the Neo is the winner. CT having it for 1599 less the 20% sounds terrific. However I do not know enough about biking (distance runner using biking and swimming as cross training) to know what cassette to order. Any chance you have a link to something from CT that would be compatible for my 2017 Specialized Roubaix 11 speed?

    • I pretty much buy the same cassettes over and over again for all my trainers. Amazon shows I’ve bought a disturbing number of the Ultegra 12-25T cassettes over the years.

      Specifically, this exact one: link to amzn.to

      I’ll probably start buying the new R8000 ones since it’s only a few bucks more, but really, it doesn’t much matter: link to amzn.to

      The 6800 is what’s on my NEO right now.

    • Josh

      Cool thank you. I’ve tried a couple trainers in the past which just had too much noise and therefore I ended up selling them. Hoping that the NEO resolves that noise and ease of use issue!! Thank you again.

    • Stuart

      Speaking of silent trainers, I notice that Clever Training appears to no longer carry the STAC Zero. All the pages linked from a Google search return a “Page Not Found”.

      Bit of a moot point, since I don’t really need to upgrade my Kickr; I’m just a little surprised.

    • We’ll likely see it return once they get a clearer picture of inventory/availability, perhaps in December, but it’s hard to tell.

  17. Todd

    Magnus vs Snap Trainer. What’s your recommendation?

  18. Steve

    Ah, pity the 20% off is US only – momentarily had visions of being able to get the WATTeam Powerbeat for a simdge over £200, which would have been ludicrously cheap.

  19. Peter N

    Clever training VIP is not so Useful for europeans right? We should get membership at the .co.uk site instead (separate?) i was trigger happy, thought they were ‘connected’ in the back and tried to order a neo. Bummer – didn’t ship.

    Is there separate DC VIP for European site? They have different account databases…

    • Correct, for CT UK folks you can get 10% off year round, whereas US folks can’t on some brands due to MAP policies.

      There isn’t a separate VIP sale for UK at this time, though some things are in the works for Black Friday timeframe.

  20. Andre

    What’s the likely hood of a Fenix 6 being announced in January? Its so closer in time and this is a great deal but I would kick myself if an update is announced after I buy. The past 4 years they have done yearly updates which makes me hesitant.

  21. Joe

    Ray: what makes you think there won’t be a new fenix at CES? I was counting on one, even a small iteration as you say.
    Thanks very much for the discounting info.

  22. Carter Terry

    P1 ordered and on the way, should arrive just in time for my next scheduled FTP test. Thank you Ray and thank you Clever Training! Fantastic Deal!

  23. Austin

    Is this the best deal we will find on trainers especially smart this holiday season? I’m in the market and was waiting to see if any brands did holiday discounts

  24. Jeff

    “In the case of Clever Training UK/Europe, you get 10% off all year round on everything”

    This does not appear to be the case I had tried to apply the discount code DCR10BTF to a wahoo kickr snap but it did not work on the UK site. Perhaps I am using the wrong code?

  25. Armando Serafini

    Do you think an additional factor with the Garmin sales is the rumor of upcoming releases of a Fenix 5 Plus and Forerunner 245 & 645 replacements?

  26. Alessio

    Hi Ray – I am keen to join the VIP and get the 20% discount, but using the UK website. Is this even possible?

    • The UK website isn’t doing the 20% off, though you can at least get the 10% off on virtually everything (save Wahoo right now for weird reasons). And of course, you can ship flat-rate to the UK for some items for $29USD, so depending on the item, it may work out (also gotta factor in any customs duties).

  27. Eli

    Too bad you can’t preorder the wahoo climb :(

  28. Marie

    Ray, what do you think are the chances that we see better discounts on those Suunto watches later this month?

    • I’d say low. Historically speaking Suunto hasn’t really gotten into the game much for Black Friday (a mistake, I believe). However, you can kinda use what they did last May as a potential guide. I save all historical deals here (which actually includes anything prior to today): link to dcrainmaker.com

      It looks like there was a 25% off deal for Suunto stuff last may, so a touch bit higher than the 20%. But again, hard to be 100% certain we’ll see that here.

  29. alexei

    i dont see the suunto spartan Baro in here … isnt this one included on sale?? it doesnt even appear on clever training at all

  30. Michael Coyne

    Any word yet on whether the CLIMB has smoothing yet with things like Zwift?

    I’m still quite torn between the new KICKR (because the CLIMB seems really cool) amd the TacX Neo or Elite Drivo (because the KICKR noise does seem annoying, and not having to worry about calibration seems nice).

    Unfortunately where I live the only trainer I’ve gotten to try (or will likely get to try before the 18th) is a Kurt Kinetic Rock & Roll. I found it WAY more comfortable than the stationary bike at my gym (which feels like biking on an anvil), but don’t know if I would find the smart trainers uncomfortable too since they don’t “Rock & Roll.” Although I think the Neo is supposed to have some sway or something?

    I also wish the sale went through Black Friday in case there were some Black Friday deals. Obviously the KICKR 2017 won’t have any, but are the Tacx Neo or Elite Drivo old enough yet?

    • Unknown yet. It sounds like the first small production run attempt is happening next week.

    • Michael Coyne

      I hope they get one soon. It definitely looks fun. Also as somebody who used to live at the beach and would have to train for hills as best I can – it definitely seems like a trainer which doesn’t change angles would just be training you at biking into the wind. As somebody who only had biking into the wind as an option IRL, I can definitely say that it definitely doesn’t translate fully into hill-climbing ability when I moved. So I feel like there probably is a real training argument beyond the fun, just a question of the price-tag.

      Also, do you think/know whether the smoothing will only apply to Zwift? I don’t know what exactly you can do with Zwift/other software, but if I wanted to simulate a course not built-in to Zwift (say, various Ironman bike courses to choose which to do as my first), it’d be nice if it was smooth there too, and not just on Zwift’s built-in courses. I’m definitely looking forward to your trainer software update to get some insight on the best way to simulate any course created on a map (so I can try any tri course I fancy).

      Thanks again for the help with the purchases!

  31. MAGNUS

    I just recently picked up the Kickr17, to eventually get my paws on the climb, so I thought maybe I should try to complete the wahoo setup and go the for desk…. Of course it’s not eligible.

    Maybe I’ll just go for a box of goos.

  32. Grant

    Hey Ray, is this just the US site or the UK Clever Training site (Apologies if I missed if you said it), been waiting for a 20% off a Kickr Snap

  33. Bob

    I have the Garmin 935 and would like to add a heart rate strap as I don’t trust wrist based. Any sales on the horizon? Everything I read says to get a Garmin. However, I like the idea oh the Wahoo kicker with memory. I will be using it only for running.

    • I would expect no FR935 deals this year.

    • morey

      Well, that means that the 935 and the Fenix 5 are now the same price.

      I know- you mentioned above, that they are different markets. But still…

      My only reason for potentially upgrading my F3HR right now, would be to try and find a watch where the optical HR works more reliably. I’ve thought that the 935, due to its lower weight, might be better. $100 off of the 935 would close the deal for me.

    • Zach S


      Got my HRM-Run from heartratemonitorsusa (link to heartratemonitorsusa.com) for $59.99 (bulk packaging). Most comfortable HR strap I’ve ever worn, and with running power coming from Garmin soon it is a smart buy if you ask me.

  34. Jeff Byrnes

    Tacx Neo ordered! Finally time to retire my 20+ year old Blackburn mag trainer.

  35. ChipC

    I see Clever Training does not currently offer the new Shimano Dura Ace FC-R9100-P Power Meter. Do we expect this to change in the near future? I’m considering it for one of my bikes. I see the Shimano PM is slowly trickling out to other sellers. Thanks!

    • They were asking about whether to carry it or not….and your comment reminded me I hadn’t answered an e-mail from September on it. Answered. ;)

      They’ve carried Shimano gear before, so it shouldn’t be a big lift. Of course, availability is a whole different ball game!

  36. Peter

    So with the Garmin Fenix 5 sale, the price is same as the 935. Which one would you get? (I’m an active triathlete that lives with (and loves) my 920xt – wearing it both for work outs and as every day watch, but looking for an upgrade).

    • That’s really tough. Personally, I prefer the FR935 over the Fenix 5, mainly because I like a lighter watch than the Fenix 5. Additionally, the FR935 doesn’t have any of the 3rd party ANT+ connectivity issues that some people see (mainly on Stryd running pod, but occasionally other things).

    • gingerneil

      I’m following the runscribe community forum closely, and they too are having a nightmare getting good performance on the fenix 5. There have been some breakthroughs due to some impressive dev work on optimising the runscribe radio interfaces, but it’s very clear this is a Garmin issue and not stryd specific. I’d avoid the fenix 5 entirely due to this.
      (I went 935, and love it!)

    • Yeah, it’s definitely an issue. I think we’re seeing it more of an issue with Stryd/RunScribe, because it’s honestly the furthest point on your body you can get – so that hurts a bit.

      With power meters, your leg is bent (reducing distance) and your arms are pretty static, so that tends to put it a bit closer. The PowerTap hub of course is further back, but that’s got a blowtorch of an antenna in there, so I can pick that up in the next county over.

      Garmin knows they screwed up here, but there simply isn’t any non-hardware fix for it they can make at this point from what they’re saying. I’m surprised they didn’t do an inline fix for it by this point (say this past summer), but it sounds like it may be more of a challenge to address without having a bigger domino effect on components.

    • Tim Grose

      Quite a few people on the Garmin 935 forum said they had switched from a Fenix 5 and were pleased to have done so largely for the reasons already mentioned.

    • Shane

      How is the Fenix 5 with the Polar H10 on weight workouts? Anyone know if there is connectivity problems with HR strap on Fenix 5 with all weight workouts? I don’t run (knees) but bike, heavy gym/weight workouts, surf…and want all day activity tracking. But connecting to HR strap is essential for my weight workouts. I know about Stryd issues, but weight lifting issues would make it a no go. Ray, anyone know?

    • Shane

      To above post, doesn’t have to be Polar H10. Can be Ant + or BLE HR straps.

  37. Lisa

    Hi Ray-
    Thanks for posting. Does this mean that Garmin is not replacing the 235 forerunner with an upgrade?! Been waiting.


  38. Larry

    Elite Direto coming to replace a generation 1 KICKR. Any idea of used value of older KICKR?

    • Post it on craigslist at a high price. If no one bites (and you get a dozen of lowballs), relist it at a lower price. Repeat until you get someone sensible to buy it. Try Nextdoor at the same time, and reserve it for eBay last.

    • I’d guess about $500-$600? They’ve got Gen2 units floating around from time to time sub-$1000. But you figure the Gen1 KICKR is a lot louder than something like a Direto, and also probably not as accurate. It does have better road feel.

      Either way, I’d be surprised if you can get more than $600 for it, but then again – I haven’t looked at eBay/Craigslist either.

    • Jimmy

      The 2016 KICKR is available on Wahoo’s site right now for $900 (new, not refurb), so I’d suspect the Gen1 would be worth a little less.

  39. Dave

    Hi Ray, thanks for the great review and the sale! Any chance of ordering the Stages dual sided PM with the discount?

  40. Anneke

    Thank you! A trainer was my “big” triathlon purchase this year – I’ve been waiting for a sale and the 20% off is great.

  41. Scott Stinson

    Ray thanks for the discount assistance! In for one Neo!!! Your noise level testing sold me on it!

  42. Eli

    For those who are wondering performance bike won’t price match. (Though you’d still pay more as you’d probably need to pay sales tax that clever training doesn’t charge)

  43. Michal

    Good stuff, been waiting for this deal since I’m in the market for a new trainer. However I have a concern that I can’t seem to find an answer to online. My pain cave is my garage, and I live in hot TX. During the summers, it can get 110+ F. I plan to leave the trainer in there year round so curious if there are there any temp restrictions with these trainers and their electronic parts whether cold or hot? Leaning towards the Elite Direto since it seems to be the best value but curious in general as well. I’d hate for something to melt or malfunction due to heat

    • I haven’t heard of any heat-specific issues with trainers (cold or hot) in terms of just temp issues.

      The main issues you get with any trainers are temp shifts as part of calibration. Higher end trainers are getting better and better at this, and mid-range trainers if you just ride 10-15 minutes and then do a calibration (basically, your warm-up), there isn’t too much of an issue.

      The only thing to be concerned about for you is just any sort of corrosion if there’s major humidity issues. No different than any other part, but since you’d be sweating all over it, you’d probably want to leave the fan running facing it after a hard workout, just to ensure things dry out and don’t corrode long-term. Most trainers are well protected for this, but still, I even do it on my trainers indoors (and have for over a decade).

    • chris

      I am in Texas (Austin) also with a Snap I and see the temp swings. I like riding in the garage until the heat is brutal. My wife rides it indoors (I minimize indoors because the dog hates the noise). You might see calibration shifts so spindowns are important. Although the last firmware update seems to have minimized the differences.

    • Michal

      Ok super! Appreciate the additional info, I do sweat like a pig or even worse (no offense to pig lovers) and have always used a towel to help circumvent some of it. Leaving the fan on for longer is a great idea and not sure why I never thought of it…

  44. Richard R.

    4iiii Precision heading my way,.. was hoping they had the Viiiiva also but didn’t see it.. Thanks for all the reviews !

  45. Scott

    Thank you for the update on the sale and glad I waited until now to by the PowerBeat I’ve been looking at for a month. It was nice getting ~$80 off the dual setup.

  46. Hey Folks!

    Just as a heads up on two fronts:

    A) Clever Training just added an amazing GoPro Hero 6 (yes, Six) deal to the mix, along with a Hero5 deal. The Hero6 deal is kinda unheard of, especially barely over a month from release. Both are listed here: link to dcrainmaker.com

    B) And don’t forget the Fenix 5 and Edge 820 deals kick off today! The Fenix 5 deal runs through Christmas Eve, but it sounds like the Edge 820 deal only runs through Nov 20th, so heads up there.

    Thanks for the support!

  47. Sam

    Hi Ray,

    I am based in the UK and I can currently get a Tacx Neo for £1000. Any idea whether there might be a better deal coming over the next few weeks?



    • No, I wouldn’t expect anything beyond that (assuming you’re factoring in the 10% already, or some other deal). Tacx has done a bit behind the scenes over the last 12-14 months to try and ‘minimize’ some of the super-cheap online retailers in Europe from selling the Neo below-cost. Thus, you’ve seen some of the pricing rise a little bit compared to what it used to be.

    • Sam

      Thanks Ray: Currently have a light sleeping 8 month old so didn’t want to delay the sound of silence more than necessary!

    • Tim Grose

      I got a price match to £1049 the other week so if £1000 exactly that seems very good. My LBS said they do not make a lot on them anyway but the advantage for buying from them for me is that they put on a cassette for me for free (I supplied the cassette) and made sure it worked on two of my bikes before leaving.

  48. mike burton

    Jumped on the 820 sale this morning on clever training but it’s not up yet. The 1000 and 520 are currently sale priced. If this actually happens it is too good to pass up.

  49. Tom

    Hi Ray and readers,
    You may already be aware (and I apologize if already posted), but TomTom Spark 3 cardio/music/headphones is listed on Amazon as “deal of the day” for $ 150.

    Tempting for me (currently have Vivoactive “classic”), but I know TT is getting out of the personal wear business and I assume future support will be limited.

  50. marklemcd

    I’m trying to figure out if a Quarq powermeter is compatible with my bike but I’m either a dunce or incredibly novice and can’t figure it out.

    My bike is completely ultegra, including an SM-BBR60 bottom bracket. Does anyone know if there is a Quarq that I can use? Their website is less than helpful.

    Thanks in advance!

    • Yeah, bottom bracket stuff can be messy. I can say that if you ring up Quarq (phone number), you’ll get a human instantly and they’re incredibly friendly/helpful on this specific question (whereas I’m incredibly confused by dealing with bottom brackets…and mostly just hope/pray it works out).

    • marklemcd

      Thanks Ray, I did indeed contact them and they were responsive. Too bad with 6800 I’d have to do the expensive DFour and swap out the bottom bracket. Too expensive and too much of a pain considering the other options out there.

      Looks like if I do anything it’s the Assiomas instead.

  51. Scott

    I have a Computrainer and am thinking about an upgrade. The CT works fine but some apps I cant use as they dont support it. The Kickr Snap with the discount seems like a screaming deal with 20% off. I could sell the CT and recoup a good bit of it. I do see some mixed reviews including your own about issues. Is it solid now? I dont want a downgrade. The other option is bite the bullet and go for full Kickr or the new Dorito or whatever its called. Thoughts?

    • chris

      I have the original Snap and it is mostly stable…particularly since a recent update. That said it can be flaky now and then. I am trying to talk my wife into a Direto so if you have a choice, that is probably a better way to go.

    • I agree with Chris.

      I’m still having trouble getting mine to be accurate (Snap). Granted, I’m only poking at it once a month or so, but when I do decide to poke at it, I spent like 2-3 hours poking at it trying to make it accurate. Perhaps some of it is me, perhaps I’ve got a bum unit, or perhaps the entire calibration/roll-down process is short-sighted on SNAP. I don’t know (well, I do). Either way…I agree, for a bit more, I’d easily go Direto.

  52. David

    Boom – a CycleOps Magnus is on its way to my home. Thank you Clever Training!

  53. Ryan

    This deal is awesome, I’m ordering why Wahoo Kickr today!

    I have a question about the Garmin 820. I have a Hammerhead Karoo on pre-order. Now that they are the same price, I’m having second thoughts. I know you only had a limited test on a pre-production Karoo, but which do you think you’d go with at the same price point? I mostly road bike, but mountain bike a decent amount as well and the Karoo seemed like it might work a little better in terms of downloading and displaying maps from apps like Trailforks. I know the Garmin can do that as well, but don’t have any idea how the two would compare. Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.

    • To me, that’s an easy choice – Edge 820.

      I poked at one about a month ago at the ANT+ Symposium. As I said then, they’re doing really cool stuff with navigation – really cool. But the rest of the picture is a bit fuzzy still.

      I think if we fast forward a year from release (be it in December or January or whenever), they’ll be a really competitive option. But I think the first year people will largely be disappointed if they’re buying at a high price point. A lot of people that haven’t touched one believe it’s the next Garmin Edge killer, but it’s not yet.

      Can they get there? Absolutely, just like Wahoo did with their BOLT vs Edge 520, but that took another year on from the initial ELEMNT release. And more importantly, Wahoo had 3+ years of bike computer experience before that dealing with all the 1% type issues that kill companies in the bike computer biz.

      If you think of it like a game, Hammerhead still has to ‘unlock’ the Wahoo ‘achievement’, and then they can go onto ‘unclocking’ the ‘Garmin’ achievement. Still, I’m looking forward to it!

    • Ryan

      Thanks for the advice. Just ordered the 820. I can’t wait!

  54. Sam

    Aussie here and in the market for a smart trainer.
    Anyone know if there are any good deals at the moment or coming up in the next few weeks timeframe?

  55. Boki

    Hey Ray,
    I’m looking to buy the Neo. I have a designated indoor trainer bike Cervelo P3SL (old aluminum). I just can’t figure out if the P3SL will fit on the Neo. I know that some kind of “fit template” is floating around but all the links are dead. Thoughts on the P3SL/Neo compatibility?


    • Hmm, I don’t have the template either. I don’t remember hearing too many issues after the August 2016 case update for Neo in terms of compatibility. That seemed to resolve most of them. :(

      Might be worth dropping a comment on the existing new post I did prior, as someone might either have the template to share/re-upload, or be able to confirm P3SL compatibility.

  56. amp323

    I was on my way to buying a VA3 when I received the leaked Black Friday ad for Best Buy. They have the Fenix 3 HR reduced to 299, so now IDK which one I should get. What’s your opinion?

  57. Zach

    Just picked up a Magnus, thank you sir! Feels good to make an educated purchase AND get the best price on the internets.

  58. Troy


    Just left performance bike. Bolt is at $249.
    Now the garmin 820 at $299?
    Decisions decisions

  59. CQ

    Even with the $100 off the amazon price for the Fenix 5s is $50 still more than the local store in my town and $100 more than Clever Training. In fact that price is pretty much the list price not sale price so am I seeing something wrong here?

  60. Eli

    20% off is still cheaper than scratch and dent:
    link to cycleops.com

  61. Shane

    Sorry for repetition, but how is the Fenix 5 with Bluetooth or Ant+ HR straps on weight workouts? Anyone know if there is connectivity problems with HR strap on Fenix 5 with all weight workouts? I don’t run (knees) but bike, heavy gym/weight workouts, surf…and want all day activity tracking. But connecting to HR strap is essential for my weight workouts. I know about Stryd issues, but weight lifting issues would make it a no go. Ray, anyone know?

    • Andrew M

      The distance from chest to watch is less than foot to watch or power meter to watch, so you don’t see many people reporting problems. Certainly I have had no problems with an HRM-Run and an F5.

      But why risk it – get the Forerunner 935 – it is lighter, and doesn’t have the connectivity issues of the F5.

    • Nick K

      Sadly, I did have issues with both Garmin own ANT+ strap (HRM-Run) and Wahoo TICKR connected via ANT+ when weight training. The problem isn’t very pronounced: maybe 1-2 dropouts per 30-40 minute workout, and mostly if you take the watch off your hand as you’d be forced to do for, say, kettlebell swings. However, if you do something really kinetic, like martial arts, the dropouts get pretty bad. Will be retesting tonight with the latest firmware on Fenix 5, but my hopes aren’t high. Holding out for Mk1 dive computer that has all the 5 bits baked in…

  62. Roy

    Hi Ray,

    Thanks for all the work and time you put into your reviews. I got me a CT VIP and ordered a pair of Assioma Duo! Cheers.

  63. Eric

    Tacx Neo on the way! Solid hook up Rainmaker! I’m done with that dumb trainer! I’m goin’ Smart!

  64. Olivier

    I just ordered the Assioma. Hopefully they will be under the christmas tree. Thanks Ray for the heads up on the discounts!

  65. Geoffrey

    I guess the GoPro Hero 6 deal isn’t for Europe?

  66. Jeremy Thornton

    I literally had gotten the approval from the boss to purchase a trainer, went to do another 100 hours of research I’ve already done three times previously, was fully prepared to plop down $899 for the new Direto and BAM, you’ve got a headline and link to a one item discount. What timing!. Direto purchased and at some point will be on its way once in stock. Thanks Ray & CT!

  67. Michal

    I was about to pull the trigger on the Edge 820, however decided to see what the 520 was. Looks like it’s $50 less (I must have missed the price drop…) than the 820 however in the cart it shows that the 520 is eligible for VIP points but the 820 is not. I was surprised by this since I thought any garmin products on sale are not eligible for points? I reached out to CT support but figured I’d post here as well to double check if the 520 pts is an error? Thanks!!

  68. Richard

    Hi Ray

    I was thinking buying a Quarq dfour in clever training with the vip discount but at the end they charge 65 USd in taxes. If I buy the vector 3 in Amazon it will cost me less than in clever for the Quarq. Do you know why clever charge more taxes than amazon? My shipping address is in Florida.

    • Michal

      Since you live in FL, I believe by law CT is required to charge you sales tax since they are based in FL. I don’t live in FL, hence CT isn’t required and doesn’t charge me sales tax. Come tax time however, you’re supposed to disclose how much internet merchandise you bought without being charged sales tax, so in theory it’s not really a savings. Although most people probably do see it as savings if they circumvent this part for their taxes, but that would be tax evasion.

      I believe it works the same with Amazon, if they have a distribution center in your state then they charge sales tax otherwise not. However, if memory serves me well, when this sales tax hoopla was a big issue on the news I think Amazon decided to charge sales tax to everyone regardless but I could be wrong on that front. Either way, it may be moot point, with as big as they are these days, they probably have a distribution center in most states today.

    • Michal is correct on pretty much everything. Clever Training is based in Tampa, FL – so hence the in-state tax aspect.

      I would have thought Amazon should be showing taxes as well. I say that because I ordered something to my sister-in-law who also lives in Florida on Amazon on Saturday, and it shows taxes collected.

      That said – if both are the same price on Amazon for taxes, I’d actually be really curious what numbers you’re seeing and see if there’s something that can be done there.

    • Actually, one more minor thing: I’d be also curious where you see Garmin Vector 3 on Amazon. My Google-fu skills can’t find it (and as far as I know, Garmin actually isn’t permitting it be sold there either). All I see are Vector 1/2 items.

    • Ricardo

      Hi Ray, thanks for your answer. I’m just stating that once the vector 3 will available on Amazon will cost me almost the same. With that in mind, I will prefer the V3. Thanks for your explanation and thanks to michal

  69. Anthony James

    So my dilemma is the following:

    Do I get the Elite Direto or the Tacx Flux?

    If you were to choose which would it be Ray?

    I use my road, cx and mtn bike on my CT right now and would prefer to move to something more current for smart trainer.


    • That’s tough. Normally I’d recommend Direto, but with availability getting slimmer and slimmer, I’d consider flipping over to the Flux if you don’t like the timelines. If however, you live in Florida where the weather is still mostly quite reasonable – then that probably changes things a bit.

      But since you’ve got a CT, I suspect you’re not super hard-pressed to get a trainer now, and could afford to wait 3-4 weeks for the Direto…thus, I’d probably still lean that way if in your shoes.

    • Geoffrey

      Hey DC..again congratulations on P2 :) Do you think that Tacx and Wahoo will respond with a price cut this year on their trainers in response to the Direto (which seems to be sold out everywhere)?

    • Thanks!

      No, I don’t expect either Tacx or Wahoo to respond this year. With Direto being harder to get, it only gives more reason for Wahoo/Tacx to hold course with pricing.

    • Anthony James


      Thanks for the input. I am in no hurry. And I was just offered a brand new hammer for $850 which is a steal from my LBS. I guess the one thing I see that the Hammer has over the others and only this is I can put my mtn bike with 148 spacing on the Hammer. I see the others I can’t do that. Am I reading that correct from all of your reviews?

      Thanks much

    • Yeah, the Direto tops out below 148 for thru axle, so that would definitely be a driving factor.

  70. Kostiantyn Savostin

    Direto backordered late december at CT website :( :( :(

    • Indeed, for new orders. CT is trying to work to get a shipment in quicker that might resolve that.

    • Kostiantyn Savostin

      Thanks, going to order Direto , even it will be shipped late December.

    • Jeremy Thornton

      Yep, I can confirm this as well. I got an email from CT last night indicating that they anticipate fulfilling my Direto order the last week of December. While it certainly is a bummer, I also understand I guess. I just hope the delay isn’t further past that. On the flip side, I appreciated the proactive email from CT. Many companies wouldn’t bother to do that so I give top marks for proactive communication from them.

  71. Alex

    The Kickr has arrived today after a week of wait. I couldn’t wait to test it out. I was intially worried about the noise but happy to find out it was doing good at 17 mph. The built is solid and wahoo fitness app is ease-of-use. The experience has been amazing so far.

    Clevertraining did a great job in responding quickly to a technical problem of my second order (TICKR) not earning reward points.

    Thank you Ray and Clevertraining!

  72. Ondrej Vranka

    Hello there.
    I’d like to ask one question concerning the garmin 5x maps usability.

    I need glasses for reading already. Well, yes, time adds always, still no way back…

    I certainly won’t wear the glasses while sneaking in the woods or on a running trail.

    So the question is: does it make sense going for the 5x or just the 5? the only big plus of the 5x over the 5 are the maps right? everything else is the same in the 5 and some points like weight, battery life are even better? Money is not the issue.

    Thank you for any advice.


    • The 5X is actually bigger than the 5, and thus you’ll get a bit more screen real estate. The 5X of course has maps and such.

      I don’t think you’ll see appreciable difference in screen clarity/visibility between the 5 and 5X, but you will get maps, so I think it really comes down to deciding if that’s worth it to ya.

    • Ondrej Vranka

      Thank you very much for the soon answer.

      Well the question is: can I read the maps without glasses? Well you might say – it depends how blind I am. As said, i just need the for reading newspapers and such…

      So still seeing something :D even in the dark. I’m somewhere at +1,5 – +1,7 dioptre.

    • I honestly don’t know. My guess is that if you need it to read smaller headlines (like, 3rd and 4th page mini-section headlines), you’d probably need it for the Fenix (or most watches).

      Sorry, just not sure! I’d suggest posting this very same message with your specs onto the Fenix 5 in-depth review, as my guess is someone there would be able to confirm with similar eyesight.

    • Ondrej Vranka

      Well all right. Thank you very much!

  73. John Halak

    Just ordered an Elite Direto based on your recommendation Ray…riding Zwift with a dumb trainer and power meter currently so looking forward to getting “smart”.

    I previously purchased both the 4iiii PM and a Felix 5 based on your recommendations and reviews and couldn’t be happier. Thanks!

  74. Rory

    Thanks Ray – You and Shane got me over the line on the Direto. Sad I missed the flash $649 sale on the v2 Kickr the other day though…

  75. Rue

    Finally! Wife agreed to get my Xmas,Valentines, Birthday, Anniversary gift. Can’t wait to see you Direto.

    Thanks Ray!

  76. Chip C

    Really bummed I misread the text in this post as the Clever Training 20% VIP sale running through Christmas :( I went to buy a Kickr this morning, and it’s too late :( I guess Santa will not bring me a Kickr this year :(

  77. Chris

    Was the discounted 820 price short term? It’s nowhere to be found now.

  78. Stephanie

    The VIP code is not valid for clever trainer

  79. Todd Hayden

    CleverTraining code is BFVIP.

  80. Phil Lekavich

    Is the 20% currently up and running again? For the Neo specifically? Purchased the VIP membership and then went to checkout again for the Neo with the coupon and its saying Coupon ‘THANKYOUVIP’ is invalid. Please email sales@clevertraining.com if you feel you have reached this message in error.

    Cart is giving an automatic 10% discount but I’d really like the 20% =)

  81. SteelTownRunner

    Clever Training (CT) VIP coupon code (BFVIP) will **not** apply to the Wahoo KICKR 2017,

  82. Murphy

    Any update on Garmin 245/645s?

  83. Ben

    Are you anticipating the same sale this year? I can probably wait until November 9th (ish).