A look at the new (and crazy silent) Elite Turbo Muin trainer with power output

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Over the last week many of you asked me to look into Elite’s new Turbo Muin trainer, which was just announced by the Italian cycling company.  So I did just that, thus, let’s dive right into things.

The 17kg (37.4lbs) fluid trainer contains a 5.9kg (13lbs) flywheel that contains a known power curve up to 2,200w if pumping along at a blistering 60KPH.  The unit includes a foldable frame to slightly decrease the overall real-estate for storage post-ride.

Unlike some trainers where the flywheel often acts as the internal fan and/or cooling unit, the Turbo Muin contains a secondary fan for cooling, which you can see below to the lower left.

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It’s in part due to this design and a chambered approach that makes the unit so astoundingly quiet.  I was hoping to get a good audio clip of it, but every time I was in the area the convention center was crazy loud – so while you’d never hear it, it would have been kinda pointless to take a clip of not hearing it because folks would have assumed it was just due to the other loud sounds.

From listening to it multiple times over two days the only thing I heard was the sounds of the bikes drivetrain and chain going through the cassette/chainring.  It’s possibly going to be slightly more noticeable in a quiet living room, but without question by far the quietest trainer I’ve seen to date.  It’s like comparing the roar of a lion (normal trainer) to that of a house cat with duct tape on it (Turbo Muin).

It’s compatible with 130mm and 135mm road and mountain bike hubs that have a 5mm diameter quick release on the rear wheel.  And on cassette compatibility it’s available with Shimano 9/10/11 speed cassettes and you can also purchase a free hub with Campagnolo 9/10/11 speed cassette compatibility.

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In order to determine power and speed, a speed-sensor is placed hanging off the chain stay near the flywheel.  This reads a magnet inside the flywheel enclosure.  Based on the magnet the unit can determine speed.  Because fluid as a resistance medium is very stable, the power curve is quite predictable.  That means that at X speed, the power will always be Y.  For example, at 15MPH, the power might always be 326 watts.  They said on average it takes about 2-3 minutes for the fluid within the unit to reach stability from a wattage power curve standpoint.

This speed is then broadcast via ANT to the iPad app I’ll discuss in a moment.  The only trickiness with the below implementation as one can pretty plainly see is that you’ll need to rotate the sensor in/out of where the rear wheel would normally be each time you attach the unit to the trainer.

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The secondary challenge here is that the unit isn’t actually broadcasting your speed and/or power via ANT+.  Instead, the app has to convert the speed using the known power curve to display power to you in the app.  It’s really too bad that the unit couldn’t simply do that straight forward calculation internal to the sensor and then broadcast speed/power as true ANT+ to any head unit.  That way you could simply connect a unit like a Garmin Edge or other bike computer to get more information straight into that device.

Looking at the app side, the unit includes an iPad app that will chart and display your speed/cadence/distance/power.  The iPad app requires the use of the ANT+ iPhone adapter, seen below attached to the iPad.

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Above you have a workout/interval mode, and below you’ve got more of a generic display mode.

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Now, in the case of the Turbo Muin, it won’t actually control the resistance – rather, it will simply report your current power.  That means that for the workout creator (seen above), it’s really more about giving you visual queues to adjust your speed to in turn adjust resistance.  Remember there isn’t a resistance control lever/knob – resistance is simply controlled by speed.

In addition to a workout creator mode, you can also create and ‘ride’ pre-created routes over maps.

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In this mode you’ll see the distance/cadence/HR/power and speed, as well as an indication of the slope of that area of the map.  Like the workout mode, again it won’t control the resistance to the corresponding slope.  Instead you’ll just need to adjust your work-effort to match the increased slope (such as by changing gearing).

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Once you’ve completed a course you can share it onto Twitter/Google+/Facebook:

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In addition to sharing with your friends, you can also transmit a .CSV file via e-mail to whomever you prefer…like, yourself.

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The Turbo Muin trainer costs $719US/580€.  The app costs $12US/10€ per year.  There’s also a 10-minute free trial of the app permitted as well.  This pricing puts it slightly on the high end of non-resistance controlled trainers, a touch bit more than the LeMond Revolution (ironically pitting this as the quietest trainer on the market with what is the loudest trainer on the market).  If Elite had provided in-box ANT+ power meter broadcasting I feel the unit would be much better positioned in the market.

The trainers are built in Italy, and delivery is expected in late October for Europe.  US will follow in early December – or simply the length of time it takes for the boat to float from Italy to the US.

While I will be testing one out, it’s unlikely a unit will arrive in time to include in my trainer roundup and recommendations post in two weeks.

Welcome to Interbike week! This week during Interbike 2013 I’ll be tweeting from the exhibition show floor quite a bit, as well as posting frequently. Here’s a quick and handy link to all Interbike-related posts.

92 Comments

  1. derpuma

    I agree, without Ant+ not worth a buy...

    Reply
  2. Doug

    Hi Ray, many thanks for this post, when I initially saw this product I tried to find out how it worked to see if my 910xt could pick up the power, if it could it was definitely going on my 'want' list. I couldn't find out much detail and now with your post the veil has lifted. I've no iPad, no plans to get one and it's not how i'd want to organise my indoor training (through their app).

    I agree, if this was changed to broadcast ANT+ rather than run it through the app then I think they'd really be on to something.

    Reply
  3. Matteo

    An head to head with the Kickr seems unavoidable

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Not as much in this case. Price wise KICKR is $300 more, and has resistance control - this doesn't not. The KICKR spits out native ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart Power/Speed numbers, this does not.

      Which doesn't take away from the Muin, but simply clarifies it. As I noted above, it's in a tricky spot price-wise compared to other trainers.

      Reply
  4. Lou

    If the pickup is sensing a magnet on the flywheel, why does the pickup need to go on the chainstay? Why not stick it to the flywheel housing?

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      It's funny, as I was writing this post, I was actually thinking the same thing. I'll find out.

      Reply
  5. Alex

    Further to Lou's question about the position of the pickup - If there is a magnet on the fly wheel, what is to stop you from using a standard ant+ speed sensor and using it with something like TrainerRoad?

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      You could definitely do that. I've got to believe that TrainerRoad will work to add it into their existing power curves, since they support tons of other Elite units (List here, bottom of page with dropdowns: link to trainerroad.com)

      Reply
  6. Tom

    Would be interesting to see a software-based solution for simulating hill topology on a product like this. Naturally, it can't make it harder directly with a fluid resistance unit, but they could modify the reported on-screen speed/distance and create an indirect feedback loop. That is, the flywheel speed (what it is measuring) isn't directly useful information, but as it can be converted into power you can then generate a virtual speed by taking into account calculated power as well as the simulated weight/grade/wind/etc. which would be far more instructive AND could be used to convince you to increase resistance when climbing (ie if your speed drops to 3km/h, you're likely going to pick it up). Naturally, the gearing would be very different so it's not the same as a motor-brake based unit, but anyone used to riding on a fluid trainer is already used to adjusting speed in different manners than they do on the road.

    Reply
    • Art Hare replied

      Tour de Giro will do exactly that for ANT+ powermeters (including multiplayer racing and the upload of custom maps), although it seems we won't be able to use this trainer's private ANT+ protocol. I initially worked with an ANT+ powertap, and the mental effect of virtually climbing or descending hills is pretty pronounced - Even though my trainer at the time wouldn't change resistance, I'd still rest going down hills and increase power going up them.

      -Art
      Tour de Giro dev

      Reply
    • Pete replied

      We also have very high quality software that will do what Elite offer here for free, looks like any Ant+ speed sensor will work on this trainer. Inside our software settings you will be able to map the flyweel speed to power & share this. When we have this mapped we can display a virtual speed thats based on the power curve as well as power.

      Reply
    • Ilja Booij replied

      I've built a software program which does just that. I have a KK Rock&Roll trainer, and Power2Max power meter. The power is used, together with gradient and rider weight, to play a video in the right speed. It can be used to play videos with control files meant for the older Tacx software (the old Fortius software).

      I'm developing on (Ubuntu) Linux, so it will probably not work in Windows and Mac right now, but it shouldn't be very hard to port. It's also pretty bare-bones, but works quite well. I do most of my indoor training with this software, apart from the more intensive sessions, for which I use Sufferfest videos. A short, low resolution, video of the software is here: link to youtube.com, and the source is here: link to bitbucket.org

      Reply
  7. Tom A.

    I don't think I'd make the assumption that fluid based load generators are necessarily stable. I know my Cyclops Fluid2 is not...and I'm not alone in that observation: link to forum.slowtwitch.com

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Interesting stuff, especially on your notes on tire speed as well contributing. And unlike a resistance controlled trainer where you could keep gearing identical and thus speed identical, tire speed is actually an integral part fluid trainers as speed = resistance.

      Reply
  8. Jamie

    No Ant+ no dice. Amazing any company wouldn't realize this. And the whole "you can ride a course by simulating hill power by pedaling faster thing" just seems like an after thought and not very practical. Love the silent aspect though, looking forward to version 2.0 next year...

    Reply
    • Carl replied

      With all these fluid trainers you can match cadence to power requirements by changing gears. It works and it works very well. If this baby measured torque at a high frequency, I'd want one (sprint coach, not so interested in steady state ... ). the ultimate ergo is still the SRM ergo ...

      Reply
  9. Tom A.

    Also...flywheel mass alone doesn't tell the whole story on pedaling inertia.

    What matters is how that mass is distributed on the flywheel and how fast it is being spun. As I said more than once this past week "It's not the mass, but what you DO with it that counts" ;-)

    Reply
  10. Really interested to know road-like feel compared to lemond rev and kickr.

    Reply
    • David Näsvik replied

      I can answer myself... Yes it's silent. BUT, road-like feel is not there at all! Feels like biking on sand, hopeless as trainer. If you want roadlike feel go for kurt kenetics with the extra weight, not as silent though...

      Reply
  11. It's a pretty trivial affair to build a speed sensor that does that calculation and broadcasts power for a trainer. There are obvious limitations to this (inaccuracies caused by temp, air pressure, etc), but since they'll output a CSV file then the numbers needed for Trainerroad can easily be regressed to the original calculation. The same numbers could be put into microcontroller and In a single afternoon put together the necessary electronics to do what everyone wants and broadcast ANT+ power direct from a sensor attached to the trainer!

    One more thing Total hardware cost to do this for me right now using nordic semi's nRF51422 is < $10 + 4 - 6 hours work.

    Reply
    • Donal Bailey replied

      If I was a tech whiz like that and could fashion a similar ANT+ gadget I would definitely buy one of these. The prospect of being able to do sneaky silent 5am or 10pm training sessions? Forget about it! Sold!

      Reply
  12. Bonny

    Patiently waiting for your trainer review! Need one now! Thanks!

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Yeah, that'll depend a fair bit on when the unit is in my hands - likely not till the end of October, and then time for use after that.

      Sorry!

      Reply
  13. Steve G

    Seems to be a fantastic product idea that has fallen a bit short on implementation; I would think that anyone looking for something like this would pay the extra $300 for a KICKR.
    The KICKR seems really, really hard to beat at the moment. Even if it is more expensive for us Aussies
    ;)

    Reply
  14. Kostya

    If you talk crazy silent this is the one:

    link to photo.exsotron.com

    Reply
  15. tak87

    What I would like to know:
    How does it compare with the CycleOps Silencer which is probably the direct competitor to the Turbo Muin, regarding
    - noise
    - ride feel
    - maximum resistance
    - build?

    Although slightly off-topic: the manual of the silencer downloadable from CycleOps says "No-Swing Version". Anyone who knows what that is supposed to mean?

    Reply
    • avlh replied

      I suspect CycleOps Silencer and D2R Shadow (you can goggles it) made by same OEM factory from Taiwan. D2R Shadow direct drive and the flywheel resistance unit look identical to Silencer. Except that D2R has a swing-able base like KK Rock&Roll. That should explain the mystery of "no swing version" and some Chinese character in the Silencer manual.

      Reply
  16. James Short

    Hi Ray,
    Just a question on base stability? I noticed that all eurobike pictures saw the trainer "bolted" to the floor. Any ideas how stable it will be on the real world?

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      I got it all setup today, and did a brief test ride. No problems with base stability. At Interbike the unit wasn't bolted to the floor. Those massive bolts actually go into the base supports. You put it together yourself (as I did today).

      Reply
  17. Chris

    is the app file compatible with strava. i doubt it though

    Reply
  18. Chris

    from reading the manuals from the elite website, it seems there are nothing electronic/sensors on the trainer itself. The only sensor needed is a 3rd party ANT+ speed sensor to transmit to the ipad/iphone with the My E-Training apps. Correct me if i am wrong. Thanks

    Reply
  19. Wouter

    I have ordered the trainer. I "rode" it at the bikemotion expo, felt great, very silent (I live in an appartment and can only train late in the evening) and costs "only" 431 euro (at bikeinn in spain), price has since risen a bit again. It is being shipped at the moment so I have no experiences yet with the software options but it seems from this preview that an elite (exclusive?) ANT+ pickup is included. On trainerroad they do not have a profile yet for this machine and offcourse it does not have electronic braking so closed loop feedback is never possible but I have also ordered the wahoo ANT dongle for my ipad(3) and the VIIIVA heartrate sensor (which can pick up any ANT+ signal neighboring it and convert it to Bluetooth) so I am eagerly awaiting DC rainmakers in depth review on the "3rd" party integration (tweaking) functionality of this machine as well.

    Reply
  20. Jon

    Not sure I'm getting the whole picture here. Do I care if it's Ant+ if I'm using a Quark powermeter?

    Reply
  21. Rob

    The iphone ANT adapter - presumably it plugs into the 'power in' slot of the iPhone? Hard to see where else it could go...

    Reply
  22. Damerval

    Est ce que dans la course map la résistance de l'homme trainer augmente ou est ce que c'est normal ( comme sur le plat ) ?
    Merci

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Bonsoir Damerval-

      No, the unit doesn't increase resistance in a controlled way, rather, only when you change gearing or cadence (and thus speed). Speed controls resistance, ultimately.

      Bonne nuit.

      Reply
  23. Grant B

    A quick question: what domi need to get ANT dongle onto new iPhone/iPad Mini with small Apple connector?
    Any suggestions appreciated?
    Thanks
    G

    Reply
    • Phil replied

      Hi Grant,
      what you need is an Apple Lightning to 30 pin adapter. The small Apple connector you mention is called Lightning and the Ant+ dongle uses the older 30 pin connection that iPhone/iPads used to use. There are two types, one is about the same size as the Ant+ dongle, the other has a bit of a cable on the Lightning connection side. Both types would do the job fine.

      Reply
  24. Grant B

    I have power cranks, a Garmin 500.
    Do i NEED the ANzt donlge and Elite power/cadence bits and bobs!

    I want to use the Elite app

    Reply
  25. Wouter

    Well, I have the machine for a couple of weeks now, it is not as silent as expected, but still glad I got this on from a sound point of view, I couldn't imagine having an even noisier machine in an appartment. No complaints from the neighbours so far! I would get the matching elite rubber mat, looks great, works much better then a soaking wet beachtowel for protecting your floor.

    I've got seperate speed and cadence sensors (by minoura) as i have no need for a speed sensor when training outdoor, but this doesn't work :-( i tested it with the wahoo dongle app, i get either speed or cadance but not combined, the elite app can't recognize them, not even when combined into Bluetooth via the 4iiii viiiiva heartrate strap (which is a mighty fine product in itself) the 4i app works great, but no power measuring for me. Bummer.

    Reply
  26. Sebastian

    Hi,

    which Speed Sensor is working best with the Turbo Muin, is there a special one that fits best? Can I use any ANT+Dongle for the My E-training app on the Iphone?

    I also thinking of buying a Wahoo Kickr but in Germany the Kickr is about 700€ more, is it worth it?

    thank you

    Reply
  27. Wouter

    Just any combined sensor will work, i now bought the wahoo one but i need to modify it as the cable is not long enough to fit both sensors in the required poisition. Take note to buy one with at least 15cm of cable between the two sensors. I will now need to cut and solder to lengthen the cable.

    Get the wahoo ant+ dongle! the cheaper garmin one only works with garmin hard/software and is thus not usefull (at all).

    The kicker is worth the extra 700 i feel, but it is also much louder, if you live in an appertment I feel the kicker is not an option.

    Reply
  28. Wouter

    Well, there doesn't seem to be any combined sensor with a wire longer then 10cm available at all.

    So factory default it seems it is just impossible to use elites own app, there just isn't any sensor that Will work. Grrrrrrrr.

    The current wahoo one has a very thick shielded cable with two very thin inner wires (no seperate shielding) i have sofar been unable to lengthen them and get both sensors to work without fault. Grrrrrrrrr times two.

    This is just stupid.

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Yeah, I just barely got it to work, and by just barely, I mean it's about as tight as possible, going to the same drive-side where I put the cadence sensor there. It's a bit odd, non-desirable, but it works. I'd agree, I'd like to see them support multiple sensors - one for cadence, and one for speed.

      Reply
  29. Justin

    I have had this unit for 2 weeks now. Combination of Wahoo Ant+ Dongle, Elite wired speed and cadence sensor, and the Elite iPad App (on DC Rainmakers DIY iPad stand) - yes I'm a fan.

    I struggled to get the speed sensor to pickup data, but in the end that's now working. I have taped it to the body of the muin and will remove the cadence pickup from the bike each time I need to use it on rollers or outdoors (it's going to be a pain, but that's only one issue I have).

    I don't believe the data that's being produced in the Elite app. I can't produce more than 120watt output, and I know when using a Wattbike I can comfortably hold 230-250watt. Now how do you troubleshoot that one? The only way I can think of to actually prove it would be to put a bike with crank meter or pedal meter to compare - which I don't have. I have opened a case with Elite via e-mail and will wait for their response.

    Reply
  30. Justin looks like you & I have the same issues:

    1. The recommended speed/cadence sensor is not fit for purpose with the Turbo Muin & the Elite My Training App. It is not possible (at least in my case) to affix the cadence magent to the drive side crank due to chain clearance issues & the sensor wire isn't long enough to stretch to the non-drive side. This means that you cannot simultaneously record speed & cadence. This is a deal breaker since so much stationary trainer work is around cadence.

    2. Elite power estimation is massively under called. I just did the sufferfest rubber glove FTP test. My threshold HR is 172BPM & my wattage is 119 (meaning my threshold would actually be X 0.95=113). Pretty disappointing wattage for a 34 83kg, 187cm rider!

    I have emailed Elite about these 2 issues however have yet to receive a response. I think the guys at Elite have been arriving at work a little late, leaving a little early, & been having too long a lunch in between on this one.

    I have ordered the Sunnto USB Ant + & plan to give trainer road a go. As I understand it can deal with inputs from multiple ant transmitters unlike this dumb Elite app. If this is the case I can get cadence from the Garmin GSC10 already on my bike & I hope that their virtual power is more accurate than the Elite App.

    One question I have is if trainer road works with multiple ant inputs can I move to another alternative for the speed sensor? I read elsewhere someone taking about sticking directly to the trainer a bontrager speed trap sensor. Will this work? If so I'd rather do that & get this stupid "elite sensor" off my bike.

    I think Elite owes me a refund on the app subscription, the speed/cadence sensor which doesn't work with the Muin, the wahoo dongle I had to buy & the Apple lightening adaptor I needed to make that work with my iPad 4.

    peter

    Reply
    • Fabrice replied

      @Peter: I just had the same power measurement under-estimated issue

      I have different sensor (from Wahoo) and I can tell you the sensor is not the problem.

      you may have noticed that in the settings of my e-training app there is under the selection of the trainer (Turbo muin) a value that appears to be defaulted to 2070. This value seems to be the circumference of the internal flywheel or so. My opinion is that it is simply wrong, because I have chosen another fluid trainer in the settings and the value was unchanged.

      When I set it to something around 3000 I got more realistic watt measurement.

      The key would be to be able to get the right value from Elite support, because otherwise this app settings defaults are just crap and make it totally useless...

      Reply
  31. Sebastian

    ok,

    thanks for your feedback. Has anyone tested if the cycelops dual Sensor will work, i can't find anything how long it cable is link to cycleops.com
    Maybe i will buy one and test it by my self, how exactly i have to install it on the Turbo muin?

    Thank you

    Reply
  32. The connecting wire looks about the same length. I don't think it will be long enough & you will run in to same issue as the rest of us.

    Reply
  33. I have been in communication now with Elite & I must say they have been really helpful. We still haven't resolved the cadence sensor placement constraints but Elite are going to post me a small magnet to place on the drive side crank arm. Hopefully that will clear the chain & still trigger the cadence sensor.

    Now on to the power wattage. In order to initially match the Turbo Muin with the Elite training app it is essential that you input the unique serial of your trainer (a sticker on the leg). However, what has now happened is that rather than my output being pathetically low I know am capable of Chris Froome efforts & am considering sending my data to Team Sky for evaluation. Maybe I can still make the tour team. Something isn't right.

    Reply
  34. Wouter

    Peter,

    where you able to make elite's own app work/start with only a working speed sensor picking up data? I thought that as I am not connecting a dual (speed and cadence) sensor (as I can't get mine to work due to my crappy diy skills (I have more or less destroyed one wahoo combined speed/cadence sensor already by cutting the wire and not being able to succesfully lengthen them) the app will just not work at all, it seems not to get through the set-up phase as I am not inputting both speed and cadence.

    Also elite is not replying on my e-mail at all. I already send one out while I was still in the orienting phase (for buying a trainer) and just recently another informing them of my "adventures". Nothing, just total silence.

    Reply
  35. Peter Bartley

    Hi Wouter,

    Actually yes it works as long as you are pedalling and the sensors have switched themselves on. I have managed to get mine working by putting some serious stretch into the cable so that reaches over the to the non drive chain stay & it picks up my Garmin cadence magnet. I need to keep adjusting it as the wire pulls the cadence sensor back out or of position over time.

    When setting up you need to input your trainers serial number printed on the sticker on the leg. Then search for sensors and select the one positioned on the muin (this is as important for me as the app is also picking up the signal from my Garmin gsc10).
    So mine is now working but the power data estimates from the Elite app are flattery to say the least. The estimated wattage is huge!

    I reckon you've just broken the wahoo sensor in your attempts to DIY it.

    Reply
  36. Abe Glazer

    Based on my experience with the Lemond, they should have mounted the flywheel speed sensor on the housing like Lemond did. Once you have an Ant+ speed signal, there are plenty of apps (such as Performance Pro) that will pick up the Ant signal and convert it to power. Then you run decent traing software such as the Sufferfest etc and have all of your data real time. I know folks bash the Lemond for its hoise but the ride feel of it is quite nice. There is no limit to how much power you need to put on it. The idea of direct drive trainer needing to add resistance is just plain stupid because if you want more resistance you either pedal faster or put the bike in a higher gear. Just like the real world.

    Abe
    Westmont, IL

    Reply
  37. Fredrik A

    I had my first workout on my new muin in trainerroad yesterday. I'm using the wahoo blue sc sensor mounted on the seat stay and a small magnet on my heel under a bit of tape. I got credible watts numbers but they kept jumping up and down for as much as 30 watts per second even if I focused on smooth pedaling. It got a lot better with the power smoothing option but isn't that a bit much? My second problem was when I downloaded the workout and uploaded it to strava, they converted my ~300 watts to ~25km/h. Anyone experiencing they same things or have a clue how to solve them?

    Thanks in advance

    Reply
  38. PETER

    The power output using the Elite app or trainerroad (they use the elite curve) is massively overstated. However for me it is at least quite stable & not jumping around.

    I don't even bother to look at speed as it's not useful for turbo training and it's completely inaccurate.

    Reply
  39. Fabrice

    just saw on wiggle main description (link to wiggle.co.uk) that the flywheel has a diameter of 197mm, that would give a circumference of 309,4 mm.

    It appears that the circumference of 2070 mm given by the app for the Muin is simply not possible, it would give a diameter of 659 mm which is clearly something that would not fit in the flywheel container.

    So at the moment my conclusion is that the unit for the circumference is not mm (seems to be 1mm/10), and that the right value to give the app is 3094.

    Reply
    • Justin replied

      I sent through a screenshot of the iPad Elite Trainer app setup as part of my ongoing troubleshoot with Elite technical support.

      Response: "we have found a bug on the app, it will be solved on the next app version.

      To solve the problem now, please insert the value 10100 on the serial number"

      I'm mot sure that this is an accurate fix. But probably changes the flywheel size to more accurately match up with the Muin.

      Reply
    • Fabrice replied

      I was wrong in my calculation, 197.5mm of diameter gives 620.5mm of circumference, and so a realistic value for the app diameter of 6205 (or 620 if the unit is really mm). I will test it soon.

      Reply
    • Fabrice replied

      Thanks a lot Justin, I will test this setting.
      Hope the next app version will not come with new stupid bugs.

      Reply
    • Fabrice replied

      Just tested in the app the fix suggested by Elite, the point is that changing the S/N of the trainer does not change the flywheel size value.

      I think that this value was just hardcoded in the app whatever the selected trainer is and that obviously it will be wrong whatever the trainer you choose.

      Reply
  40. Fabrice

    Justin, for me it solved the problem, I put 10100 as S/N and put back 2070 as circumference (although it is really a strange value) and wattage is now more realistic.

    Reply
  41. I think DC needs to come with the review & feedback to Elite!! I am sure they will listen.

    DC--any idea when this will be?

    Reply
  42. Hi All-

    Just a quick heads up on a few items as I just heard from the Elite folks.

    1) An app release went out that's live as of today on the store. It includes a bunch of changes, but the two biggest ones are:

    A) The serial number issue has been resolved, correct calibration values should now be there
    B) You can now export in .TCX format - perfect for upload to anything on this planet

    2) They've got some new speed/cadence sensors they're working on with a modified cable length that will be applied to new units going forward. Peter above got one of those new sensors.

    Have a good weekend!

    Reply
  43. Wouter

    Thanks DC, good news!

    but does this mean that when you from now on buy a turbomuin it will include a combined speed/cadence sensor (with elongated cable between the two) as previously it was just the turbo muin in the box and no speed/cadence sensor at all.
    Can people who already own the turbomuin (like me) also ask for this at elite? (I already purchased 2 different sensors (one with too short (the industry standard it seems) a cable and 1 with seperate sensors (which is not supported in app) and I don't feel like spending another 50 euro on a "turbomuin" speed/cadence sensor (with longer interconnecting wire). I haven't send any e-mails to Elite about this but they failed to reply to my two previous e-mails (which I feel where very fair and valid to put forward to them).

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      My understanding is going forward that's the plan. As for ringing up Elite, you could, that's what Peter did above.

      Reply
  44. sadgit

    Is the Muin
    1 - The quietest trainer available
    2 - A nice trainer to ride
    3 - Recommended for apartment dwellers

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      #1: Yes, I believe so based on all the trainers I've played with
      #2: It's good, but this is subjective. To each their own.
      #3: As an apartment dweller, the people downstairs haven't yelled yet. But then again, they never yell. Again, a bit subjective.

      Reply
  45. Frank

    the Muin or the Kickr what should I buy?

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      It's sorta like asking if you should buy a Toyota Prius or a Tesla S Model ....it's kinda about how big your wallet is.

      Reply
  46. Wouter

    By the way, Elite is actually VERY quick to react on any mails you send them, just don't use your hotmail account (I suspect it runs into a spam folder) as these will not be answered at all.

    They've send me a MS Word document showing how to install a standard combined speed/cadence sensor, just put the entire thing on the "drive side". So put the speed sensor directly next to the aluminium housing of the flywheel (which has the magnet attached to it) and then simply route the wire forward on your drive side and stick the cadance sensor to the outside of your frame (facing the pedal arm), put the cadance magnet on the chain side pedal arm (inside) and it should work.

    Haven't been able to try it myself yet as my sensor is still in pieces (I cut it up trying to lengthen it) but I think this should work perfectly fine.

    They also informed me that yes, seperate (speed and cadence) sensors are not supported in app and they made no promises if this will be done in the future (so don't expect this to happen).

    Reply
  47. george

    Hi,

    There's a lot I don't completely understand above, especially, regarding power.

    I'm interested in the trainer b/c I live in an apartment and want something very quiet. I currently have a cycle ops fluid 2 and Garmin 910 w/HR monitor and train according to HR zones, not power. I also have a speed sensor on the right side (drive train). I upload my results from Garmin Connect to Training Peaks for my coach to review.

    I understand that I have to use Elite's sensor to record data on their app because that sensor (proprietary ANT+) will not register with my Garmin.

    So, can I have two sensor's on my chain stay, one for the Garmin and one for the Elite App? Or is there not enough room for two. Otherwise, (I think):

    (i) when I disconnect the bike form the trainer (i.e., ride outside) I won't be able to capture certain data.
    (ii) I won't be able to upload speed data to GC and TP

    Is there a wheel sensor provided by Elite that registers with my iPhone?

    Without seeing this first hand, it's a bit tricky for me to fully grasp.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'd hate to spend the $750+ just for quiet, though I may have to do that.

    Thank you!

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Actually, it'll register with your Garmin - there's no issues doing that (I've done exactly that).

      Reply
  48. Michael

    So the Muin Trainer now comes with a speed / cadence sensor?

    Reply
  49. Martin

    I have been contemplating buying a turbo trainer ie computrainer, wahoo kickr, elite muin. However all I read really is that none of the providers seam to be able to provide a relatively simple bug free machine. Really I want to be able to set my bike up quickly, switch on from a simple menu and train quietly and then analyse my workout. I am not a mechanic or an electrical engineer or tech geek. I want power analysis and video to keep myself amused to stay on the bike. Why is this all so hard. I am prepared to pay for the right outcome.

    Reply
  50. Tim Whitehouse

    Hi, have just purchased the muin direct drive turbo trainer and I could do with a bit of advice on a couple of things....
    I currently use my garmin GC10 to record my cadence/speed/HR when out cycling. When I use the muin will my GC10 pick my data up as when out on the road ? If not what sensor should I purchase to get the data ?? I currently use Garmin connect to download all my sessions onto my laptop. I do not have an ipad/ipod and I do not wish to purchase one just to use the elite hardware. If anyone can help with all my enquiries I would very much appreciate it....new to this cycling thing since having both knees operated on.

    Reply
  51. Rogier

    Hi All!

    I’m interested in the Turbo Muin, but the lack of native ANT+ bothers me too. I could use the Elite sensor with TrainerRoad (right?), but I’d rather have speed being transmitted directly to my Edge 800, along with heart rate and cadence (like many people around here). I’ve been reading about sticking a separate ANT+ speed sensor to the flywheel housing, reading speed and transmitting it to the Edge. But what I can’t find, is a definitive answer to the question which wheel circumference to use. I’m reading 2070, 3000 and even 6205.

    So, my question is: would it be possible to stick, for instance, a bontrager speedtrap to the flywheel housing to transmit speed data directly to the Edge? And if so, what should the wheel circumference be?

    If there’s no definitive answer to the latter, would it be possible to test it by using both the Elite speed sensor and an ANT+ speed sensor, then comparing speed in the app and on the Edge, then adjusting the circumference until they show the same speed?

    Reply
    • Mateusz replied

      "So, my question is: would it be possible to stick, for instance, a bontrager speedtrap to the flywheel housing to transmit speed data directly to the Edge? And if so, what should the wheel circumference be?

      If there’s no definitive answer to the latter, would it be possible to test it by using both the Elite speed sensor and an ANT+ speed sensor, then comparing speed in the app and on the Edge, then adjusting the circumference until they show the same speed?"

      I would love to hear answer to this question

      Reply
    • Mathijs replied

      What I did was also stick a bontrager speed/cadence ant+ sensor to the flywheel casing. The speed is then transmitted to my Suunto Ambit2. Cadence is not working of course. I'm using the settings from the wheel as if it were directly connected to my wheel, so one rotation of my wheel equals one rotation of my flywheel. I think this should be correct.
      Also the Suunto Ambit2 can have a speed to wattage app, so I can have some power information. Maybe not all 100% correct, but it gives me some good insights.

      Reply
    • Mathijs replied

      My speed sensor settings are: 2126 mm

      Reply
    • Mateusz replied

      Perfect.
      Thanks a lot!
      I'm planning to use my Garmin speed/cadence sensor (which I normaly use outdoors), to get cadence data, and seperatly Bonetrager speed sensor, to get speed. I hope my fenix2 will manage to do that...
      I'll inform if thats work.

      Reply
  52. Lukman

    I think all these issues with the sensors can be solved by just getting a power meter.

    I have stages power meter and I can just do my intervals with this trainer with power values recorded by Stages.

    Problem solved! Right, Ray?

    Reply
  53. Waldi

    Ray,
    What about new one Real Turbomuin? Will you be able to test it?

    Reply
  54. Richard

    Hi all,

    Anyone tried out this small modification (extension of GSC-10 swing arm cable):

    link to turtleaws3.blogspot.nl

    Could save me buying a new speed/cadence sensor!

    However, not a fan of opening GSC-10, adding/removing cables, closing back and sealing off the GSC-10 every change of season. Maybe a spiral cord would work, but don't know if the cord would then act as some sort of coil and of course it will be hard to fit the whole corde inside a closed GSC-10.

    Reply
  55. Mathijs

    Question about Ant+, can I use my Bontrager Ant+ speed/cadence sensor with this trainer to transmit speed data to my Suunto Ambit2?

    Reply
    • Mathijs replied

      I found out: yes this works! And the Suunto Ambit2 has an app for that.

      Reply
  56. gary smith

    Major mistake not having ant+ making there market very narrow indedd

    Reply
  57. What do you think about Real Turbo Muin ? Will you write a review about it anytime soon?

    Reply
    • DC Rainmaker replied

      Yes, you'll see my comments on it this week (though, I've written up posts at Eurobike/Interbike on it).

      Reply

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