JUMP TO:

Garmin’s Biggest Competitor Is Their Own Software Instability

DSC_1323

To the casual observer, one might assume Garmin’s biggest competitors are Apple, Fitbit, and in certain cycling circles – Wahoo. But in reality, I’d disagree. Garmin’s biggest competitor is themselves. Or more specifically, their lack of focus on solving bugs that ultimately drive consumers to their competitors. In effect, my bet is the vast majority of time a person chooses a non-Garmin product over a Garmin one is not because Garmin lost the features or price battle. It’s because that person has been bit one too many times by buggy Garmin products.

And sure – that intro paragraph might seem unfair, after all I do record the vast majority of my own workouts on Garmin products without issue. But the reality is that the ‘Garmin bugginess’ is also true, and everyone knows it. The sole reason Wahoo has slowly gained market share in cycling GPS computers isn’t because they have a technologically more feature laden or better priced product (they don’t). It’s because they have a product that seemingly has less bugs (and also as everyone points out, because you can configure your data pages via phone app).

The reason someone chooses a Suunto watch over a Garmin Fenix series watch isn’t because Suunto has more outdoors features or even better accuracy these days (they don’t). It’s because Suunto spends the time to ensure the vast majority of bugs are never seen by customers. Be it hardware or software related issues, the products are just more dependable.

Which isn’t to say these other companies are perfect. Far from it. But this isn’t a post about whataboutism. It’s not about some random bug that Apple, Wahoo, or Polar hasn’t yet fixed. Or Suunto’s site. It’s about the a cultural problem Garmin seems to have around software stability and bugs, that appears to be ‘features first, stability later’.

Understanding the Scale:

DSC_0167

Before we talk bugs though, we do need to talk scale to put things into perspective. Any conversation that skips this isn’t really truthful.  Said differently, when I evaluate the steady stream of issues that land at my virtual doorstep via comments, e-mails, tweets, and carrier pigeons, I try and question a few things (no matter the brand):

A) Was someone just confused?
B) Was this already fixed in a firmware update?
C) If this is a legit issue, then is it widespread, or a very limited edge case?

Whether or not people want to hear it, the vast majority of items do tend to fall into buckets A & B above. That doesn’t mean the company (Garmin or otherwise) is not at fault. Perhaps the product user interface was poorly designed, or perhaps the experience was otherwise ripe for failure. But if ultimately the user (even on a technicality) did something ‘wrong’, then that roughly falls into those first two buckets.

It’s that last bucket (C) I’m more focused on. There, methodology goes like so:

A) When was the last time I saw/heard of this issue?
B) What’s the rough frequency of how often I hear of this issue?
C) Is this a super rare combination of factors/environments, or something that should always just work?
D) What’s the rough ratio of units shipped to problematic units

The first three are pretty easy. I’m trying to figure out if this is a one-off, which may never be seen again, or is this something that’s happening super frequently to a lot of people.

The last question though, the ratio, is trickier. But essentially I’m mentally doing a numbers game. For example, I know that while I might see 5-8 cases of a given problem on a Garmin Edge 520 compared to 1-2 instances of a problem on an Wahoo BOLT, I know that unit sales wise, in that scenario the Garmin actually trends better. That’s because if we look at the numbers, Garmin absolutely dominates the marketplace in wearables for sporting events (obviously, Apple dominates overall sales, but we’re setting that aside from this sport/fitness focused site).

For example, here’s two major running races recently on two different continents showing Garmin wearables market share:

image

This is especially true the further up the endurance ladder you get. In a 5KM event you’ll see higher Apple Watch market share than in a 10KM event, and even less Apple Watches from a marathon. Garmin typically has 10:1 adoption rates compared to Apple in 10KM and above events. And compared to Suunto? It ranges between 25:1 upwards to 50:1. Polar often half of that again.

From a competitive side, no matter which continent I look at the numbers from – the other brands aren’t even close. Again, we’re just talking people using these for sport. Obviously, if we look at total Apple Watch global sales numbers, they easily beat Garmin. But the vast majority of those watches are going on people’s wrists who aren’t running a mile.

On the cycling side, things are shifting however. In some cases pretty drastically in the last year. Previously Garmin dominated at about 90% of GPS head units on people’s bikes. But in certain events this past fall and spring, Wahoo is coming in at between 15-30%. Way higher than events a year ago. A bit of that tends to be semi-environmental and race-specific. Meaning, in other regions we see them at about 10%, especially when you move towards non grand fondo events (just picking various smaller races or stretches along the side of the road).

image

So what’s the point?

Well, simply put: With more units in the wild you’re going to see more issues. I’m going to see on average 20x more comments about a Garmin issue than a Suunto or Polar issue. And on average about 4x-10x more comments on a Garmin cycling issue than a Wahoo cycling issue.

Same goes for forums. Garmin actually has their own forums (kudos), where people can post troubleshooting issues. And just like Apple’s forums, they’re packed with troubles. But that’s just like going to a hospital, that’s where you go to find sick people (and hopefully ways to get better). I’ve never understood the logic of saying ‘Their Garmin forums are packed with people with problems’.  Of course they are: That’s the point of them. Problems happen, the point is to resolve those problems. Something that Suunto, Polar, and even Wahoo all lack (Wahoo technically does monitor a Google Group you’ll never find though). Yet similarly, nobody says ‘The Apple forums are packed with people with problems.’

So, with that bit of data-backed caveating, let’s get to the meat of the issue.

Perennial Problems:

DSC_1326

Garmin LiveTrack.

See, you just giggled a bit.

Not because LiveTrack is funny, but because you know – just like I and everyone else – that Garmin LiveTrack is horrifically unreliable. It’s actually almost impressive how unreliable it is. I certainly don’t bother to use it. I know better. Almost every time I do use it, my wife gets more upset than if I hadn’t used it. She wants to follow me, not assume I got hit by a car every time the connection drops permanently.

And it’s been this way for years, and yet has somehow gotten worse in recent years. And it’s easy to pick on LiveTrack. But I can do this all day with other bits.

Garmin Edge Bluetooth to phone connectivity.

See, you just giggled again.

Because you know that’s a pain in the butt. You know that getting it paired can often be cumbersome, and when things go wrong, there’s more steps to the dance than the Macarena. And sure, there’s lots of reasons for some. Some technical, some just ‘because it’s the way it’s been’. None matter to most people though – it’s just architecturally broken.

But let’s go back to LiveTrack for a second. One only has to look at my Facebook post or my recent Garmin Live Event Sharing post to see that the vast majority of comments are on people’s semi-unrelated LiveTrack failures.

And I get it, as a technically minded person, I really do: LiveTrack is actually more complex than people realize.

You’ve got basically two levels of things that go can wrong: Edge connectivity to your phone (interference/dropouts such as being in your back pocket), and phone to cellular tower connectivity. At present, if the Edge to phone aspect breaks, the whole thing crumbles, usually permanently. Whereas it really shouldn’t. There’s no reason the phone can’t take over GPS position responsibilities until connectivity can be re-established to the Edge. Companies like Fitbit do a variation of this within their ‘Connected GPS’ functionality for certain devices. I asked Garmin why it doesn’t simply use the phone’s position instead, and here’s what they said:

“The phone does not perform any ‘backup” GPS position transmission if the Edge device connectivity fails.  From our experience, this is typically not the cause of dropped points.  Cellular network availability is believed to be the main cause of dropped LiveTrack points.”

I don’t have the underlying data that can refute that directly. However, I have never-ending data points from people. Even one comment barely 12 hours old posted to the Edge 830 review.

“Hi everyone. I have purchased successive Garmin edges…the latest being the 830. What is going on with the LiveTracking feature? Garmin heavily promotes it but Live Track has not been working for over a year!! I’ve downloaded, deleted the app numerous times, paired, unpaired the phone hundreds of times. NOTHING!!!!! It won’t even send out the Strava Beacon…let alone Auto Start The message I keep getting is “Cannot send invites at this time. Try again later.” This should be the EASIEST function for Garmin to get right being in the GPS business and all. Can someone finally get to the bottom of this. New 830, new IPhone….same old problem. Second, the sync function works only half the time….why does the Edge 830 have two different Bluetooth connections?”

Of course, I have no idea if this comment is fake. Or if the user is somehow at fault. I suspect neither though. Given our (The Royal Our) collective experience with LiveTrack, I suspect it’s an accurate and real issue. As it always has been. And in this case, they wouldn’t show up on Garmin’s ‘cellular connectivity is the issue’ bucket, because frankly they can’t even get to that point.

Now ironically, I’ve actually had pretty good luck lately with it, even while testing the new Live Event Sharing. And in talking with Garmin they aren’t seeing any meaningful numbers of failures – outside of period a few weeks ago where they had backend server issues. The challenge is reconciling that with the torrent of people saying a variant of: ‘It’s hopeless’. Heck, even trying to take the photo above (this morning) would crash my Garmin Connect app each time I opened Live Track. I’m serious.

DSC_1340

But let’s shift to something else near and dear to my heart: Openwater swim tracking.

This past weekend I did a triathlon (race). Nothing complex, just a simple sprint triathlon where it had to track my openwater swim for a mere 750 meters. I was wrapping up my testing of the Garmin MARQ Athlete watch, which is Garmin’s top of the line $1,500 GPS multisport watch.

Yet the watch lasted a mere 34 yards in the water before it forgot how to track my swim. The next time it started tracking GPS was when I exited the water.

image

Now in the world of endurance sports, openwater swim tracking is among the hardest things to do. Half of the time your watch is under the water without signal, the other half it has about 1 second to gain signal and determine a location before being plunged back in the water. So yes, it’s hard. But it’s also something Garmin and others have been doing for almost 10 years. Yet somehow in the last year or so, Garmin has gotten really bad at it. An issue their competitors mostly haven’t had. In fact, Apple has laid down some of the most astonishing openwater swim GPS tracks I’ve ever seen (yet, they somehow can’t track a casual neighborhood run properly, sigh).

But my issue here isn’t my lost 750m sprint swim. It’s that I called out this issue a year ago in my Fenix 5 Plus review. Then again in an openwater swim video comparison video in July 2018. Again in the fall of 2018 in another openwater swim compilation piece. And more times privately and publicly since then. Yet it’s still not fixed.  And now it gets worse, this same issue is impacting the Garmin Forerunner 945 too – where some users are reporting 4 out of 5 swims are producing data that stops tracking after a few dozen meters.

Let’s be frank: The entire point of a multisport watch is triathlon (multisport is the politically correct term to not offend duathletes, but really it’s a triathlon). And yet it fails less than 60 seconds into the main event.

In discussing this issue with Garmin this past week they believe they have a fix in that may resolve the issue. Here’s what Joe Schrick, Vice President over Fitness said this Saturday when I asked what that timing looked like for both the new slate of products as well as existing ones suffering under this:

“We are working on releasing a public beta for the GPS software sometime next week for 945 and MARQ.  Pending positive feedback from beta testers and additional internal testing, we are targeting a formal release at the end of June.  We are also targeting a formal release for GPS software for F5+ and 935 at the end of June.”

However, last summer they said they had fixes in for it too. I refuse to believe people actually tested this functionality prior to this past week. If they had tested it, even just swam a handful of times, they’d have seen the issues that so many others see. In noting though, Garmin says they do work with a large number of people to trial units:

“Our test pool is significant in size and consists of internal and external testers all over the world in both hemispheres (to smooth out seasonal variations).  We obviously have more runners and cyclists in the test group compared to swimmers, but we are continuing to add swimmers to help provide better real-world test coverage.  We are continuously refining our testing procedures to provide the most comprehensive test coverage possible before public release.”

And while I don’t doubt any of that (and I know it to be true), it’s clear that population either isn’t large enough, or isn’t given enough direct guidance on what to test specifically. It may be that population is told to just use the device like normal. Whereas when I worked at one of the largest software companies in the world, for test devices or software that I ‘brought home’ to test, we were given weekly focus areas within the device to push hard on. And almost always with incentives for the people that filed the most bugs in that section.

My Proposal:

DSC_1332

My proposal is simple, at least on paper. In fact, it mirrors one of the most famous tech company driven initiatives to date: Bill Gates’ ‘Trustworthy Computing’ letter of 2002, sent to all employees. It was at that point that Microsoft made a significant mindset shift around security bugs/issues. Not everything was a bug per se, but rather, just a lack of focus on security. Whether or not you like Microsoft is besides the point, anyone in the IT industry will tell you the long term impact of this initiative was huge on/for the company. You can read the famed letter here.

But in particular, there are two small paragraphs that I think should resonate the most for Garmin:

“In the past, we’ve made our software and services more compelling for users by adding new features and functionality, and by making our platform richly extensible. We’ve done a terrific job at that, but all those great features won’t matter unless customers trust our software.

 

So now, when we face a choice between adding features and resolving security issues, we need to choose security. Our products should emphasize security right out of the box, and we must constantly refine and improve that security as threats evolve.” – Bill Gates, Jan 15th, 2002

In many ways, Garmin could replace the word ‘security’ with ‘stability’ (or bugs), and then press send.

But it goes beyond sending a pretty letter. I think Garmin needs three things to occur:

1) A CEO driven leadership letter that organizationally prioritizes stability over new features
2) A customer-facing bug reporting site that allows people to quickly and easily send Garmin issues
3) A team within Garmin that’s specifically (and solely) tasked with proactively finding bug/issue trends and getting them resolved

Since I’ve already talked about the letter, let’s talk next about the bug reporting site.

Today when a customer has an issue, they’re required to open a support ticket. In some countries/regions that’s as easy as an online chat session, whereas in others it requires a phone call or e-mail be opened, and in yet further countries the support is mostly just a digital shrug. One reader last Wednesday reported a pile of issues to their local country support desk and wasn’t assisted on any bugs or given a replacement unit due to lack of stock in that country. While other country support desks (such as the US and UK) are really good about handling customers.

Either way, the current support system doesn’t really focus on known bugs. Mostly because the vast majority of customers actually don’t encounter bugs, they encounter general issues. So funneling them through bug triage wouldn’t help if they just had a normal support problem. But ultimately, that current support system doesn’t appear to adequately compile the frequency of bugs seen by customers – often instead just applying a short-term band-aid to get the customer going again. I know from talking with these support groups that they do consolidate the most frequent issues back to engineering teams, but it’s clear that’s hardly global and even in those well-established support centers, many times the goal seems to be to close the customer case, rather than to close the underlying bug.

If Garmin had a simple customer facing webform that allowed people to describe their bug and include relevant files/etc, I suspect that might make it clear to engineering teams where the bugs actually are, versus depending on support desks that people either don’t want to call or get lackluster results from.

Next, and perhaps most importantly is a team that has ship-blocking authority within Garmin. Meaning, right now the decision for whether or not a product (or firmware version) ships is within the product team itself. And in most software development realms, that’s a logical place for it. But Garmin has consistently proven – product after product, year after year – that those software development teams are incapable of judging that bug bar. Now don’t get me wrong: Bug-free software at the complexity level of devices Garmin is making is a virtual impossibility. No different than Apple or Samsung, Microsoft or Facebook. But, the goal threshold needs to be moved up. Right now that acceptance gate is either too low, or too short in duration to be catching the issues people are seeing.

That team needs autonomy from product group organizational charts to act as a bit of a backstop for customers, and also support. They should be leveraging support division expertise, forum posts (in Gamin’s own forums), and the sifting the internet at large to ferret out issues and hold the product development groups accountable to fix those issues in the next firmware version before more features are added or new products are released.

And I know that this sounds easy on paper and is hard to execute in practice. But it’s also not. It simply starts with organizational direction from the top of the company. Once that ball starts rolling, a cultural shift can occur. It won’t be overnight, nor will it be painless. But it can happen. It took Microsoft years for that organization shift to occur around security (albeit in a vastly larger and more complex company), but the fundamental building blocks are not terribly different than what is outlined above.

Going Forward:

DSC_9843

It’d be easy for Garmin to dismiss this post as just a knee jerk reaction to a bad week or two of issues. After all, their Fitness and Outdoor divisions financially speaking are doing better than ever. The company is selling more units than ever before. But it’s also true they’re losing sales of more units than ever before to their competitors. Be it the obvious ones like Apple (which has arguably carved out new market areas), but also to Wahoo in the cycling realm.

It’d also be easy for Garmin executives to dismiss this post as an attempt to get clicks or views. But realistically, the views from a piece like this are inconsequential for this site in the scheme of a month’s worth of posts. Just like they could argue that James’ tweet (a very well respected cycling reviewer and journalist) would naturally become an echo-chamber of 518+ replies. But we’d all know that’s not true. We’d all know that what those 518 replies represent is paying customers’ frustrations with products they’d otherwise love. After all, Garmin’s social media team actually tried to respond to two people in that storm, before they realized they were driving their vehicle the wrong way during a hurricane evacuation.

Just like my tweet a week ago with swimming frustrations would be easy Twitter fodder, but it shows that some 59,000 people saw it, and more importantly: 13,374 people were interested in it enough to actually look at the images.

image

Finally, some might ask whether I’d continue to recommend (or use) specific Garmin products. And the reality is that every product is different – and more importantly, so are the alternatives. The reality is that for my specific requirements, Garmin generally ticks all the boxes better than most other products. Further, it can be challenging to fit in a larger organizational/cultural arc (like software instability) into a given product review unless that specific product was impacted by it. Or unless I actually saw that specific issue during my review time-frame (such as the case with the upcoming MARQ review).

What I hope Garmin takes away from this is that consumers want the company to do better. They aren’t asking for them to reduce their ever-growing prices, or give things away for free. They aren’t asking for more features or swankier watchstrap materials. They are just asking for the things they want to buy or have bought to work consistently from Day 1.

It seems like a simple request.

With that, thanks for reading.

Tags: ,

Post a Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked.
If you would like a profile picture, simply register at Gravatar, which works here on DCR and across the web.

You can click here to Subscribe without commenting

Add a picture

*

770 Comments

  1. Joe

    Finally the update 7.60 that I was waiting for fixing the WiFi sync issue for my F5x+. The watch doesn’t synk like before the update, ridiculous… 🙁

  2. Glenn

    Owned the 310XT and was impressed with the software over the years. Have owned a 935 for almost 2 years and it worked great until v13.0 of the SW, and hasn’t worked right since. Suddenly it has battery issues. V13.30 fixed some of them but I am stuck in the camp that the watch doesn’t last but about a day.

    Garmin clearly pushed out the v13 of SW without any real testing. Watches crashed connecting to Garmin speed/cadence sensors! The lack of response from Garmin on these fronts is what is truly damaging them in my eyes.

    Without some fixes from Garmin real soon, I will be looking for another vendor to spend my $ on fitness watches. One would think for a $500 watch that we would get some reasonable service…

  3. spidercrab

    I am now on my 3rd Fenix 5 in 4 weeks after send the other 2 back for software issues. All 3 have connection issues where the iPhone sat next to the watch or in my pocket has frequent and inconvenient “no connection”. This issue of course means that I can’t upload activities reliably without using a computer running Garmin Express. However, that then resets my Widgets to the default order – old reported unfixed bug. Luckily that means that I won’t be able to see the Stairs widget and see how many stairs I have apparently climbed. It seems odd that when I tend to climb the stairs about 12 times every day (which I count), that I usually see 2 Garmin stairs climbed and about 37 Garmin stairs descended – Garmin seem to think I am burrowing down through the earth every day.

    My strategy is to keep sending these units back until I find a working as advertised one and thank goodness for understanding vendors with buyer friendly return policies. There is a hell of a good product lurking in the Fenix 5 that meets my requirements, but it is utterly frustrating that I cannot use it to do what it says on the tin.

    It is almost as if each time a decision is made (not often) to release a new FW version, that the job is passed to the a new intern with the message “well you see if you can do any better”. Owning a Garmin product is a litany of unfixed software problems that may or may not get fixed and new bugs being introduced with each update.

  4. R

    Amen! I got so frustrated with Garmin software and customer service I gave up and switched to Wahoo. This after unreliable connectivity and the 3rd Garmin 820 warranty replacement. They just kept shipping me units with the same buggy software.

  5. gosselindustin49

    You can say that Garmin software are prone to errors but it is also quite known that they can be resolved easily. Garmin has a upper hand in smartwatches and GPS devices due to its impeccable customer service which makes sure that all the customer queries gets resolved easily. Even though software issues like Garmin Watch face not working, Garmin device crashing and Garmin Express issues are quite common, you can easily resolve them by following the Garmin Troubleshoot guide or Garmin reset methods.

    • Franz Dengler

      Surely not. The Standard AI Agent says erbot :-).
      Bad OWS with Fenix that worked in a prevous Version is bullshit that cannot be resolved by reboot. Bad ANT connectivity to HRM Tri not, too.

      My swim from yesterday

      link to connect.garmin.com

    • Jens

      Whoa Franz, your lake is warmer than the pool I do pool swim in!! Lucky you!! On Monday I swam in the sea at 14C!! That was cold even with a wetsuit.

      I agree OWS does work. I’ve tested FR935, F5S with 13.30 fw as well as F5X+ with 7.10 and they all worked. I used GPS+Glonass. However, I used a Polar Vantage V on the other wrist and to me the map looks like it has more points saved for Polar, i .e it looks better, more realistic IMO, but I’m not sure. I use 1s recording on the Garmins btw.
      What GPS settings did you use ? I will experiment with GPS only and Galileo this summer to see if it makes a difference. Also try F5X+ with 7.60.

    • Franz Dengler

      Yes my lake is really warm. No wonder we have 36 degressivere centigrade Celsius. I will try out Glonass the next days. A friend recommendd that. I used my 910xt before on the other hand. And that worked perfect.

    • Franz Dengler

      With Glonass enabled. 1 s Tracking enabled.
      Change from really Bad to Bad. An improvement 😭
      link to connect.garmin.com

  6. DT

    I have a Vivoactive 3. Have been happy for a year. Just when the warranty expired, I started to encounter a VERY frustrating backlight problem: the backlight always remain on, but around something like 5% light intensity. So it generates light and annoyance at night. I’ve tried everything (reset, settings such as DND on/off, auto-lock, etc.) but it remains. Anyone with the same pb?

  7. David Coyte

    My 1030 edge has been a pain since the day I purchased it. Sync’d to headlight and rear light/ radar, it works about 30% of the time.
    So annoyed I gave it back to Mt Eden Cycles (NZ) to sort out. They have been in discussion with Garmin for a month and still no success.
    Bloody hopeless support.

  8. john

    Anybody know how to delete old maps from Garmin Edge 1000? Without screwing up the device or bricking it of course.

    I have:

    Garmin DEM Map EU 2017,20
    Garmin Cycle Map EU, North East, 2019.10
    Garmin Geocode Map EU 2019.10
    Garmin Cycle Map EU, South West, 2019.10
    all activated

    plus
    INTL Standard Basemap, NR
    deactivated

    I heard that the more maps there are on the device the slower it will be.

    Sooner or later a new map will come and then slowly even a 32Gb SD-card will be full.

  9. Dan Cremar

    The action is simple … STOP BUYING GARMIN PRODUCTS!!! … until they fix stuff … and they’ll understand the message if NOBODY would purchase a garmin device for few months

  10. Kurt Stammberger

    Hear, hear. It’s 2019. Garmin’s software quality is shameful – and negligent.

    But honestly it is SHOCKING how many bugs they can pack into this tiny Garmin 45 and the Garmin Connect software. So, so so bad. Every day with it reveals another problem, another crash, another really lazy-ass-no-quality-control-at-all bug. Support lines always jammed. Chat drones make you pay with hours of your life to report issues they swear “no one else is reporting”, and then won’t file a bug report for you without demanding dumps. This will be the last Garmin watch I ever buy. I will also make it my mission to make sure no one else buys Garmin either.

  11. spidercrab

    I just had an online chat with Garmin UK support to discuss the over aggressive Elevation Gain (Ascent) calculation in the Fenix 5 Ride activities where the first 3 to 5m of every hill climbed, is discarded. Typically I lose about 150m of Ascent on every ride which is a show stopper for using a Fenix 5 to track my rides. My Edge 500 tracks Total Ascent perfectly and accurately.

    I really don’t feel that my issue was understood and twice during the conversation I was pointed to the same general barometer troubleshooting page, that did not address the issue I was reporting, and I explained that the link was not applicable to the issue, the first time. The online chat was brought to a swift end, when it was pointed out that +/-100ft Altitude accuracy in the Fenix 5, was producing the expected results I was seeing and these were well within Garmin’s “accepted” variation. I was sent a Garmin link to make an improvement suggestion.

    Rule number 1 in any support situation is to show an understanding of an issue being reported. If you don’t understand an issue then how can you hope to provide the right support to address the issue.

    PS I don’t recall the part of the Garmin Fenix 5 web page that stated that the barometer based altitude sensor is accurate (or rather NOT accurate) to +/-100 feet.

    • Paul S

      That sounds like a typical GPS number. Barometric altimeters should have a few feet of precision. Whether they’re accurate or not depends on whether they’re calibrated.

    • spidercrab

      Agreed. The altimeter in this Fenix 5 is every bit as accurate as the one in the Edge 500 when the altitude is manually set at the start of a ride. The Edge 500 does it from pre loaded altitudes and when you ride from home it is a brilliant system, now introduced in the Fenix 5 Plus as an improvement. Garmin asked for a pair activities (Edge 500 and Fenix 5 on the same ride) that showed the issue, and when they compared them, said they were effectively identical. When I pointed out that it was pointless to use GPS data to compare altitudes, I was guided to look at the same barometer troubleshooter link (again).

    • Tod

      Wahoo support is just as bad if not worse for understanding the issue. At least with garmin you get a chance to escalate (you have to do it through email and it takes a while) so you have a chance of your issue getting addressed. Eventually Wahoo will just say that it’s someone elses fault, or no one else is seeing the problem, or that’s the intended behaviour and do nothing.

    • Paul S.

      As it happens, about a month ago I did a ride with both my new Fenix 5+ and my new Edge 830, since the day before the 830 froze and lost the last two miles of a ride. They’re both connected to exactly the same sensors, so the only independence they have is their altimeters and GPS tracks (not speed/distance, since they’re both using the same speed sensor). The 830 gets calibrated from a POI at home, while I was unaware that the 5+ can do the same, although I think I calibrated it manually not long before the ride. Anyway, the elevation looks very close, although 5 meters difference is a little more than I’d like to see. The total elevation gain is within about a meter, so whatever the 5 is doing the 5+ doesn’t seem to be. (The Edge is the dated file.)

      Other than that I’ve used the 5+ only for two hikes, and for both I calibrated from the DEM at the beginning. One of them gained about 50 ft over a 40 minute loop with about 100 ft of actual elevation gain, which I wasn’t too pleased with. The other gained about 500 ft and was within 10 feet at the start/end. Both had auto cal on.

  12. Jelantik

    I really do think in order to make this culture shift, the CEO and CTO of Garmin should all be fired. They only concern about the bottom line. With Garmin dominates the market share, they still think buggy devices still make the sale. They could have been made even more sales if they fix their bug. The changes have to happen from the top management. And I think those C levels guy in Garmin has been living rich for too long

  13. Paul

    Garmin also gimps international versions of it’s own already buggy firmware by further limiting region specific firmware. Eg A US 1030 is on 7.5 while a APAC version is on 7.0. Maybe you should research and add that to your article.

    • I’ve discussed it (and my annoyance with APAC firmware delays) numerous times, but ultimately, like i noted at the start of the article, if I tried to cover every possible thing that annoyed me, then nobody would listen. And if I tried to focus on things that other regions didn’t understand/grasp, then it’d get overlooked. Cheers!

  14. Kai Hinger

    Man, I thought this was overblown, or maybe people were doing things wrong a lot, or maybe that the new 530 would be great.

    Finally left my Powertap LYC behind and moved to the future (present?) with an Edge 530. So far I’ve done three rides, one of them without incident.

    The second two both had my phone disconnect. One of them it reconnected at some point, but the second it didn’t reconnect at all until I got to my office and did it manually.

    Bluetooth really isn’t rocket science, especially with two devices that are large and only a few feet from each other.

    This morning when I tried to commute, I couldn’t get the Strava app to open. First, the Garmin kept saying it wasn’t connected to the phone, even though the phone says it was. So I forced that and it connected, but then I got the Strava database error when I opened the app. Luckily I knew the route, but it still prevented me from getting my ETA listed. This is all with 3.5 firmware. I like all the features and the power, but man, it’s really unstable sometimes, which is super frustrating when you’re riding and don’t have time to screw around with your computer.

  15. Hugh Morrenzi

    I would like to say that it appears Garmin have attempted to shine above competitors by adding lots of features, but features that are buggy and don’t work cause distrust with their brand.

    I spent $650 on a Garmin 935 when it first came out for sale. It’s amongst the worst device I’ve owned, but I know from using other Garmins that it’s build is still among the hardware build process is among the top Garmin have ever produced. It’s buggy, the optical heart rate sensor housing cracks eventually and the altimeter and temperature fails if you swim too often with it. For this price it is unacceptable but not a surprise from Garmin.

    But: the bugs, oh the bugs. Every software version has introduced catastrophic crashing bugs, recording activity bugs in which the unit just crashes at random. I’m on my fourth via warranty but treat my hardware very well, because I’m not rich and was taught to care for expensive items as a child.

    Fastforward to today:
    Can an old device, let’s say the Garmin vivoactive original, be used for most of my activities (even in a float for open water swimming), provide a map, use elevation correction once on GoldenCheetah/Strava/whatever website? Yes, it can.

    Do I *need* numbers that show my VO2 max via suspect optical heartrate OHR implementations? No, junk in, junk out! Don’t trust a watch screen or app to show how well you have slept, listen to your own body.

    Overall Garmin have messed up big style by packing watches with features, having a large range of almost identical watches (Fenix/935/945 lines) and still maintaining rubbish software.

    For recording runs I don’t even use a footpod anymore. I just use a Garmin Vivoactive original for $25 bucks. The elevation is off due to no barometer, but it corrects this in GoldenCheetah just fine. The GPS times, distances and such are almost identical to the 935 and so it seems we haven’t moved so much in terms of the basics. Adding GLONAS/Galileo hasn’t improved GPS accuracy.
    The lack of bugs in this means it’s more reliable for me. If I need a bike computer of similar or even a watch in future I’ll look to Suunto or Wahoo with less features, because it’s likely those features will actually work. For exact fitness measurements we need reliability, not the ability to initiate an emergency call from a watch… gimmicks are ridiculous, no mountaineer is going to use such a nonsense features, let’s be honest here.

    For me brand loyalty has been destroyed with Garmin and I’m glad competitors offer more stable environments. Compare Ultratrac to Suunto’s new offering; Ultratrac is a joke and Suunto’s is actually really accurate. Says it all – Garmin don’t care.

  16. Hugh Morrezi

    People need to understand that if they pay by creditcard they are covered if the product wasn’t suitable and up to function since purchase.

    In your case it would be easier to just contact your creditcard company who will send you a form to sign and will then refund you whilst disputing with the shop and Garmin. It’s not the shop’s fault and they won’t be out of pocket, so don’t worry about them.

    I’ve just did this with my 935 and received a full refund after 2.2 years with four 935s due to the altimeters failing, optical heart rate sensor cracking and everything else wrong with them. They’re rubbish. My 70 year old rolex is still going strong and is an example of premium solid build. Garmin’s most expensive offerings fall apart even with light use. Don’t believe me? Well my last 935 sat in the box unopened for 6 months. I open it, leave it face down on a table for a week and the OHR sensor went from uncracked to cracked above one LED. Garmin’s design and build quality is shockingly bad. The fact it has improved from a decade ago doesn’t mean it’s of suitable standard now.

  17. Bill Shirer

    I used many Garmin products over the years, Watches, Pedals, Scales, and various Edge/Head Units. The watches have been reasonably reliable, but I didn’t really use them for much. The other products have all been quirky, and some have had some real problems. Because of this, I started using competitor products and won’t buy anything Garmin. I use Stages for a power meter, and it has been flawless for years. I use a Wahoo Element for a bike computer, and it too has been perfect.

    Garmin’s product support has always been easy to reach and has been helpful, but at the end of the day, I just got tired of always having to call them with multiple ssues on every product of theirs that I’ve used.

    I just won’t buy anything Garmin again.

    Bill Shirer

  18. Graham Jones

    Great article.. As a long time Garmin product owner and fan (currently the 935, 1030 and 130, but many before it!) …a masters in systems engineering.. and also work in mission critical applications support – I had almost no problems with any of the current devices – HOWEVER the article resonates massively!

    I think you nailed it with the support portal/ticketing back-end systems which must exist within garmin – it’s a global company but a global support/ticketing system costs millions and can be like oil tankers to change out and can take years.. it wouldn’t surprise me if a project to change some >10years old ticketing system might be underway already (That could certainly be interesting question to ask them if they’re doing something there?!!)

    Garmin Edge Bluetooth to phone connectivity – yes I giggled – and for some of the comments too.
    I’ve tested loads of android mobiles with various bluetooth devices over the years and it’s harsh to say there’s only a problem with Garmin.
    What is quite hard to figure though is that both the edge device software updates and garmin connect app updates (which come actually to Garmins credit quite frequently) as well as general phone (android/ios) OS updates can all potentially trigger Bluetooth connectivity issues for the edge bluetooth sync architecture – which I think means requiring to go through full re-pair process way more often than Garmin makes out.
    I think Garmin falls a bit short here on explaining this all to the layman – it could only take some clever and more diplomatic wording on their numerous pages about troubleshooting bluetooth issues to win over those unaware about the potential technological reasoning behind having to occasionally repair.

    Open water swimming – I don’t do that! Stay well away! Haha BUT a masters dissertation in underwater wireless comms still doesn’t prepare an engineer brain to understand even a small pittance of what goes on underwater with RF- it blows the minds the biggest physics brains still researching the latest developments into it – so it’s honestly small wonder if new watch hardware designs / firmware can ruin the RF performance of predecessors without a good understanding of underwater RF propagation/interference.

    For me you really nailed it but didn’t mention with the ‘UNDERSTANDING THE SCALE’ picture; there are 9, NINE watches in that picture.
    Each quite possibly with different hardware internals with elements designed/built by different teams/manufacturing locations and/or with different hardware components.
    I imagine like you I’d love a Garmin product group owner to explain some reasons why they’re developing for ~NINE different watches in their product range all at the same time.
    Same goes for the edge computers – I lost count how many edge devices they’re supporting and still sending updates for now (?!) – and I get that each serves some slightly different purpose/price point, but why not re-use the same hardware but reduce device cost by limiting the software features in the lower cost point devices.
    For me the old hardware I’ve had (had the edge 8100, 510, 1000) seemed to always die long before Garmin has stopped developing firmware updates for them…
    I stick with Garmin for same reasons as you mentioned.. and because I know full well that consumer grade electronics will degrade and after >4years heavy use it can’t be expected that the manufacturer still supports such old hardware – it will die same as all the other consumer grade device manufacturers hardware will die after that time period too.

    Fully agreed your suggestions – change for a modern global ticketing system (that will be HUGE cost so it could go up possibly to CEO level to sign that off), but reduce the range of devices and support lifecycle for those devices too.

    • Kevin in Brighton

      I’m going to suggest something to you. I think there are two Garmin camps: those who know there are issues with, for example, the Forerunner 935 and those who don’t yet know and haven’t really checked.

      If you use a 935 look on the back at the OHR sensor. You may see internal cracks, weird looking marks or something may seem off. If it doesn’t happen now then let’s say you go for a hike abroad in a cooler or warmer country whilst on holiday. It WILL happen eventually if you use your watch in this way for the multi-sport function.

      If you spend most of your time in an office and only use the watch for the odd run the optical heart rate sensor may never crack – but I can assure you that in time it will break, generally within the first of ownership and doing a couple of the supported sports.

      We need to educate the new high end watch users to look out for hardware issues, because there is clearly an inherent design flaw with the 935, 945 and Fenix5 series.

      We also need to face that *if* you use the watch for it’s designed function and treat it nicely the OHR sensor will STILL break eventually. It’s a product design fault and it frustrates me that many people claim their 935 is great and not broken when it’s simply the case that they aren’t in a specific geographic location or/and aren’t swimming, hiking, mountaineering with it.

      When I seen my 945 break the OHR after a few weeks I realised Garmin simply don’t care. They just to sell units with stupid features – PulseOX is total crap and is a gimmick, it’s nowhere near a medical device status and therefore is a pointless gimmick that is not worth adapting your training regimen to. My gut feeling is men (including me) were and are seduced by this marketing and we seriously need to stop, because otherwise Garmin will keep releasing rubbish watches every year that don’t live up even slightly to their supposed marketing. $700 for a watch that is guaranteed to break and need warranty replacement twice a year? No thanks!

  19. Jeremy Berger

    You’re so accurate on so many points – My Fenix 5 – Works great with Bluetooth 100% of the time… NOT! The Garmin Vector 3’s are the biggest pieces of garbage I have ever owned – And they are the newest version – I’ve had them for 3 months and they have been replaced 3 times – I can’t believe I wasted $1000 on them. Garmin should never have released them. The software updates are horrible. The people I’ve spoken to in support have all been great about replacing products but all I want is something that works. Should have gone with a Wahoo computer and a Stages powermeter..

    • Franz Dengler

      My Fenix 5 has troubles with HRM Tri. Now have two thathave troubles thanks to Garmin support. I would like to have one that works. Problem seems to be watch. For that reason Imdid not buy Vector. I took Favero Assioma instead. Worked with no problems from beginning. Now for almost two years. I have a few metrics less than with Vector. But it is reliable. For running I have Stryd and it works great, too.

  20. Andrew Kennard

    They launch a new super dooper connected GPS 66 for the modern tablet world and the only way to get a GPX onto it is to use Basecamp on a PC or Mac ! Face palm !

  21. Michael Herman

    There are 3 of us in our running group using the 235. All 3 of us have started having charging issues in the last month. Too much of a coincidence. Especially so soon after the introduction of new models. Coincidence or Apple like conspiracy??

  22. Alex

    Yes. I hope Garmin listens too you. Can you please keep reviewing alternatives. Love your work.

  23. MERYN

    brilliant post. spot on. bravo.

  24. PurdueMatt

    I’ve been a loyal Garmin user over the last 7 years in buying 2 forerunner watches for running and 2 Edge computers for cycling. I can feel the pull of the Wahoo cycling computers and it will probably be my next purchase. They seem more clean and intuitive.

  25. BartMan

    The sheer number of comments shows how big issue it is for Garmin customers. I’m one of them, loyal for pretty long time, starting with early eTrex handheld GPS, through newer models, watches, bike computers, not mentioning accessories, sensors, and even Index scale!
    But the issues that are plaguing me as owner of most expensive device I purchase to date – Fenix 5 Plus – and Garmin inability to resolve it – are causing me to truly think to drop this whole Garmin ecosystem lock-in I’m in. Seriously I’m thinking of selling all of it and choose alternatives. Current smartwatches are starting to provide decent level of fitness and sport-tracking (which might be not as good as Garmin is when it is working, but good-enough) and BY FAR better smartwatch experience (when it comes to this part Garmin is far-far behind Apple, WearOS, Samsung watches).

  26. Andrew

    Forerunner 220, edge 520 plus, Vivomove hr, experience no issues, use Vivomove hr with edge 520 plus with ant.

    Is it the more expensive products that have issues?

    Is

    • Jens

      Hi Andrew and BartMan among others,

      I have FR110, FR225, FR735XT, Fenix 5S, FR935, Vivosmart HR+ and now also Fenix 5X Plus. With FR225 I had problems with GPS twice or perhaps a few more times, in my road running the GPS claimed I had taken a detour out in the sea. FR110 is slow at finding satellites but that’s just how it works. Never problems with 735, F5S, FR935 nor Vivosmart HR+. The F5X+ has restarted twice during pool swim so that was actually very bad for such an expensive product, but other than that it’s been fine.
      I have a feeling I have less problems since I never use foot pods, power meters or bike things, only external HR straps of various kinds.
      So yes there are quite some comments here but I wouldn’t agree that Garmin watches are error prone…
      There are multiple issues reported for OWS with almost all of the above models but I’ve swum outdoors with all of them without any kind of problems whatsoever 🙂

      My biggest issue with FR935 and F5S is the fact that Strava claims avg temp for my pool swims are 0C but I’m not sure whose the problem is, Garmin or Strava. In GC it looks right. With F5X+ it’s correctly shown in Strava.

  27. Scott

    My Fenix 5 was swapped out 3 times by Garmin support for several reoccurring bugs before I finally just returned it to REI, where the customer service clerk mentioned I was definately not alone.

    I then bought a Vivo 3, which was swapped out twice by Garmin support for altimeter issues before they recommended me paying to upgrade to FR 645.

    After upgrading to the FR 645, I had to send it back to Garmin for a replacement, which came with the same Bluetooth connectivity issues as the first one had. Garmin finally issued me a refund check.

    I just purchased the Edge 530 hoping that Garmin’s bike computers perform better than their watches. Reading this post and the comments has me thinking that I should return the Garmin for a Wahoo.

  28. TrailzRock

    So, yes Garmin has some big software problems but one of the biggest draws for me is that I don’t have to use my phone to setup the data pages. Unlike Wahoo or Polar or Suunto. I went with Polar and it drove me crazy that I had to get my phone out to set the data pages or change something on the watch. I’m warming up for an interval session and remembered that I need the Last lap data and turn the auto lap functions n off. With Polar I had to go get my phone. With Garmin I just did it while I was still running. It’s the biggest reason why I will not buy a Suunto, Polar or Wahoo. I don’t want that phone tethered to my device at all times. See ya. But yes, Garmin is definitely in need of some serious quality control when it comes to releasing products with buggy software.
    Get with the program Garmin

    • FsNs10

      I don’t buy that. I own a Polar Vantage V and coming from three different Garmin devices (Instinct, Fenix 5 and FR945) I miss having the option to customise the watch from the watch itself, or even customise the main pages (widgets) and some other stuff.

      But it’s f***ing reliable. And reasonable accurate on the information coming from the sensors. It has never let me down. I have what I’ve paid for.

  29. Dan

    It’s not just their bugginess, it’s also the fact that products launch with features missing from the software.

    Take the new GPSMAP 66i for example. Contacts do not sync to it from your InReach account, and they didn’t even build in a way to manually add contacts to the contact list on the device. Basic feature available in old InReach devices.

    The 66i is also incapable of receiving weather reports via satellite. Again, something which is a feature on all previous InReach devices.

    In terms of InReach features, this supposedly flagship device is a step backwards! How can anyone be sitting on the Garmin product team think this is acceptable?

    My usual experience with a new Garmin device is: unbox, find problem, try user forum, read manuals, call support line. Repeat. It’s the same thing every time. Even putting the previous missing features aside, day 1 with my 66i (an $800+ device in Canada) wasn’t one of joy for my new toy, it was frustration and support calls as it caused Basecamp to crash every time you plugged it in.

  30. GP

    Kudos to DC for writing this article – I wonder if Garmin will ever invite him again to a conference!
    I am surprised Garmin has not made any comments – I assume that is because they agree with everything that is written?
    Anyway, I joined the no-Garmin movement – replaced the Vector 3 with 4iiii (gravel bike) – Quarq (road bike) – wahoo (for edge) and Suunto (for Garmin watch).
    Everything works perfectly – not had any issues and the few times I have had some questions about any of these products I get a quick reply (do not have to wait for days).

  31. Fredrik Wanelid

    The only product I have used from Garmin is the Edge 1000. I have had it for three years or so and it works fine. Although I do have severe issues with Live Track, and also that I have to delete and re-pair the bluetooth connection regularly. I also have a date issue that sometimes happens. It sets the date totally wrong, so that the sync with Strava breaks, and I have to repair a fit file and upload manually. Based on what what you wrote, it looks like im kot the only one then:-)

  32. JJR

    I’ve been telling Garmin this stuff for at least ten years. With specific examples. I’ve also explained to them that although they do have (or have had) the best hardware and features, their user interface is awful and they will begin to loose market share if they do not begin to address it. T E N Y E A R S.

    • Paul S

      And yet, here they are 10 years later, doing better than ever. Go figure. That’s why I think there’ll be exactly zero actual response from Garmin to this enormous train of comments.

      As far as UI goes, they’re not phones. Yeah, it was a PITA setting up my Edge 830 and Fenix 5+ (which I still haven’t completed), but so far as actually using them for what they’re meant for, I can’t think of a way to improve the UI, since I basically only interact with it at the beginning and end of the activity. Push some buttons, maybe choose a course to navigate, and I’m off. Most of the rest of the time I’m just watching my data screens scroll by.

  33. Simon Pugh

    Absolutely agree – generally they produce good hardware and poor software in my experience.

  34. Blake

    My Garmin 645 Music is running software version 4.40, which Garmin Express claims to be the latest. And yet 4.4 isn’t even listed on the release notes page at link to www8.garmin.com, which says I should be on 5.7. Embarrassing!

  35. Scott

    Perhaps Garmin should get on the reoccuring revenue bandwagon and sell annual support plans that offer more reliable bug fixes and product enhancements via firmware updates.

  36. It’s like I mentioned in my blog post, the problem isn’t just Garmin. The way I see it, the design of all of this stuff isn’t what it should be. Sure, Garmin makes good hardware with crappy software…but Wahoo makes products with ok hardware and good software. Their stuff just feels like it’s lacking something. Everyone else in this market is just kind of “meh”. Basically, your choice is a) cutting edge hardware with buggy software, b) not so current hardware with stable software, c) some else that might suit your needs but doesn’t really fit in with anything specific. Yes, Garmin sucks in their own unique way but, honestly, so does everyone else. 😛

    link to velonut.com

  37. FormerEmployee

    Hi Ray. I can assure you that this article got the the right ears or should I say eyes. Unfortunately it got out the same way it got in. With a pathetic internal email that we are working towards something. Something that is terrible ineffective , slow and not low on the priority list. Managers lack the knowledge on what is really going on deep down in Garmin (or they do but they turn a blind eye). They have people in the development , business or QA cycle that have no idea what they are developing , analysing or testing. It’s hilarious but unfortunately the truth.It was probably the company where I saw the most badly written code in my entire developer career (things that would be unacceptable for titles that start with “senior”)

    Some things to keep in mind:

    Garmin reported increased quarterly and yearly revenues from the fitness segment which negates any cry of help for things that go or went wrong during development or maintaining tasks and possible any change of making things better on the long run. Managers only care for numbers. That is a stupid thing to do on the long term but some managers became managers not because they showed skill and knowledge but because they are long time Garmin employees and made some good friends.

    The entire Connect (Web and Mobile) ecosystem is rotten to the core. Management is more concerned in getting more and more features out the window with product quality always getting a second or third place.There are still people in Garmin that don’t completely understand features they worked on. If I would make an analogy it’s the same as Symbian with Android back in the days with Connect being the deprecated Symbian platform.

    3) Web / Mobile / Device UX/ UI is terrible because people that are technical are put in charge of deciding what should or what should not be developed and what is not best in terms of UX. Most people in Garmin are more concerned in delivering something that ” just works” and less about having a “pleasant experience”.

    4) Connect Web/ Connect Mobile does not generate money. Devices do and devices need to get out on the market and be followed by GC and GCM support. A cycle that will never end.

    If you are really a friend of Garmin , don’t buy their products. That is the only way you are going to send a clear message to them that something needs to change. If their revenues go up I am afraid you are still going to see the same story years from now. As I understand this is not the first critic Ray sent to Garmin t. Any improvements? Yeah thought so.

    Maybe something needs to change in hiring subcontractors that don’t give 2 nuts on the code quality as they are out after a few months or a year. Maybe they need to hire people that love what they do and not just wait their paycheck . Maybe decide on fixing issues , maybe put a hold on writing new code and refactor the existing one , maybe provide more time for quality processes … maybe maybe maybe.

    • FsNs10

      As a software engineer I’ve seen that same situation before (twice indeed): big company, crappy management, unreliable products/services, but continuous revenues: EVERYTHING IS ALL RIGHT!

      The end result? The clever minds, the people how really care and really want, giving up. One by one.

      For those who are desperately asking for “a better Garmin” just connect the dots…

  38. gauvins

    Bugs are one thing, feature regressions another. As some of you may know, “local http access”, a feature that was used to transfer courses from a phone to a Garmin device without requiring Internet access, has been removed with the release of Connect 4.20, disabling several third-party apps.

    This was a critical feature. Yet the regression came without warning, workaround or alternate workflow.

    Count me in the camp of those who regret investing in a higher-end Garmin watch.

  39. Bil Danielson

    Ray,

    You’re spot-on here, really well analyzed. I will only add that there are additional confounding software issues that literally leave me wondering how the good folks at Garmin think things through, or not. I’ll chime in on 2 additional issues (of several I could note).

    1. The inability to respond to text messages on the fly with an ios connected phone. Yes, I realize it’s an ios compatibility issue but from my contact with Apple tech they say there are also issues with Garmin’s software as well. IMHO this should have been worked out with Apple LONG ago.

    2. Then there’s this seemingly simple feature that for whatever reason Garmin does not allow. Few people swap sensors from one bike to another (unless you’re swapping wheel sets armed with a different Garmin sensor on each set’s hub). Once you’ve paired your sensor I suspect most people don’t swap it onto another bike, and in fact may change the name to match the equipment in the Sensor sub-menu on the gps unit. Thus, the identity of the bike (sensor) is then burned into the head unit. When you upload a ride, instead of logging it related to the named sensor, and by extension the bike, it defaults to the default bike you have set up in Connect!?!?. Yes, you can go in and edit the ride and change the bike – but you have to do that extra step. Why on earth would Garmin not at a minimum offer an option to use named sensor for upload default identification? It would be more user friendly then to accurately track the total mileage on each bike you use.

    For all the great mapping features (which I truly appreciate and keep me a G customer), and to some degree extremely well-done software features, omission of a simple feature such as this that I suspect virtually everyone would appreciate is bizarre.

    Garmin, you can do a lot better and the market can be very cruel in a very short period of time.

    • William Danielson

      Pic of the named sensors – when you upload a ride it should automatically link to that bike in Connect, thus when you upload to Strava it can also have the correct bike selected (may involve naming the sensor the same ID as your Strava bike ID, not sure about that though).

    • Unfortunately for #1 (iOS access to reply to text messages), that is actually legit on Apple. Apple blocks 3rd party entities from accessing the reply functionality on the text/iMessage subsystem. They say it’s for ‘security purposes’.

      Android has no such limitation, which is why the feature works fine over there for Garmin users. This impacts not just Garmin devices, but countless other watches. For example, Fitbit has the same limitation, and way back in the day so did Pebble.

      Ultimately, Apple’s reasoning doesn’t really hold up these days. The reason they lock it down is so that Apple Watch has a clear advantage (and it’s a big one). After all, if it was really for security purposes then we wouldn’t see them allow things like photo access or microphone access for apps (which they do).

      As for sensors – totally agree (at least to the extent of Garmin Connect). Beyond that to Strava…well, that’d violate Rule #1: Which states that Strava doesn’t actually add new features. Maybe one day…

  40. John Squizzat

    This is absolutely an accurate review from a trusted authority. I have a Garmin 520 Plus, Garmin Vivoactive 3 a Garmin swim watch and a Garmin 500. The newer stuff is horrendous. On a recent ride my 520 sent an incident notification to my wife. Incident detection was off !!! I received no notice on the 520 or my watch and repeated calls and texts from my wife were not communicated to the watch or the 520. Notifications to watch and 520 did not transmit. The Bluetooth pairing with Apple and notifications do not work and incident detection is a awful. Yeah you can go through all the steps turn off watch restart phone forget device from Bluetooth. But the software is broken. Why can upload but not send notifications. Hundreds of dollars worth of tech and I cannot get a simple message.

  41. John Kissane

    Sigh after a long wait Garmin released a new update for the 645 two weeks ago, so far it’s hung on me three times after saving an activity needing the power button held down to bring it back. That’s with one run a day, one might wonder if anybody did any testing whatsoever?

    Needless to say I’m not the only one – link to forums.garmin.com

    Opened a support case with Garmin, who sent me an article on how to reset it by holding in the power button 🙁

  42. Rachel Ganney

    So pleased to find this post, I thought that it was just me. The only thing I’d disagree with is your comment about the UK support desk being on the ball. I’ve been chasing them for weeks over a clearly faulty forerunner 945 and so far they’ve suggested 2 factory resets (done), 3 update via Express (also done) and sent me 5 satisfaction surveys in 3 different languages. I’m just really grateful that I bought through Clever Training (thanks to your review) who are arranging a replacement for me. This is a great watch when it works. By the way, my husband bought his at the same time and has had no problems at all, just one of the reasons that I’m sure it’s a faulty unit.

  43. GarminIsDoomed

    I’ve had Garmin cycling and try products since the dawn of Strava and before 🙂

    t’s a very slow roll, and much slower than I would have thought, but Apple is going to crush Garmin

  44. DaveQB

    Interesting about Live Track and Bluetooth pairing. Pairing works flawlessly. Not sure about Live Tracking, as I don’t watch it, but never had a complaint from my wife or any other mate who gets a copy. I did crash once and the incident detection went off. My Garmin triggered an SMS to my wife with my location (accurate), telling her there was an issue. It then left her number on the screen. When a driver who stopped to help asked who to call, I was too concussed to recite her number but did see it on my Garmin, so pointed to it saying to just call that number. So from my n=1 “experiment” Garmin incident detection works, and works very well. Not sure if this falls under the Live Tracking and Bluetooth pairing topic though.

    (I haven’t read the full article yet).

    • “But never had a complaint from my wife or any other mate who gets a copy”

      It’s at this juncture I regret to inform you that neither your wife or mates have ever looked at the link. 😉

    • DaveQB

      Perhaps. Dunno. I haven’t done any testing but I was surprised to hear you and Shane say on your podcast that there were known issues with Live Tracking; I followed a mate’s Live Tracking today, no issue and I have checked mine before to see it was working. Oh yes, I have had mates track me. When I was riding in the Snowy Mountains, I shared tracking in a WhatsApps group each day and I was getting message popping up on my Garmin from people in the group, talking about where I was on climbs etc. Just my experience.

      But Incident Detection works, and that’s the crucial part for me.

      Thanks for the great site Ray!

    • Good deal – definitely consider yourself one of the lucky ones!

      Garmin is working to address the livetracking issues brought up here, through a pretty significant effort and a bit of redesigning of things (that will also carry back to older devices). Expect more on that later this fall.

    • DaveQB

      It does appear so.

      Oh great. Go Garmin! I have had to contact Garmin Australia support a few times lately and I am SO impressed. Talk about over delivering. A little side note there.
      Shall I call you an “influencer” Ray? 😉
      Fall this year? Fall which is Autumn which is March to May. That’s already been and gone…..

    • Garmin Fall, so, Kansas Fall. No relation to Wizard of Oz Fall. And no tie between your Oz and Wizard’s OZ.

      It’s good to hear Garmin Australia support is better these days. They had a reputation for a long time as being among the worst actually (when it was all outsourced to elsewhere in Asia).

    • DaveQB

      Kansas? As in the USA? But Garmin is incorporated in Schaffhausen. *shrug*

      Anyway, the point I am making is using seasons is not a good universal solution to giving time frames. I hear you use season on the podcast and I then assume you mean northern hemisphere and then I try to convert it and…..well I play podcasts at 2x speed, so I just think “It’s happen somewhere between now and the end of time.”
      I would think quarters are less confusing; Q2 is the same in all countries, is it not?

      So Garmin Au support was not good in the past? Well from my recent experience, they are improved massively. 2 thumbs up from me.

      Thanks Ray!

  45. Peter Githens

    You hit the nail on the head with OW swim tracking. When I first got my Fenix 5 it was so much better than it is now. I did a training swim in the spring and probably covered 2500 yards. It tracked me at 750 and showed much of it up into the grass and road adjacent to the lake. It wasn’t close.

    Oddly, yesterday I failed to start my watch before plunging into the water for a swim leg of a triathlon. I started the Fenix 5 in triathlon mode while I swam. The final track for the swim was nearly perfect. How does that happen?

  46. KAI

    My Edge 530 is getting replaced by Garmin due to ongoing phone disconnection issues with no fixes working. I’m doubtful that a new unit will fix it, but at least I’ll have a later unit off the line. Can’t hurt.

  47. Roger

    For what it’s worth, my yesterday-bought FR245 was stuck on the charging logo at its first ever disconnection from Garmin Express (without needing firmware update as it comes with the latest already). Backlight control worked but nothing else. Had to Google “how to reset” and quickly found the result (how surprising?).
    Not a good start for a brand new product (is anyone but users doing QA these days…).
    Bluetooth pairing setup was a breeze though, except that full sync failed every time, until it started to work although I had already rebooted both devices plus re-pair a bit earlier to no available. Go figure.

  48. BrianKF

    I noticed recently that the problem is not actually endemic to Garmin. Paris-Brest-Paris finished last week (I was a participant) and I observed that in our local randonneuring club, which has a large number of Wahoo converts, a great many of them found that with the current Wahoo firmware their devices crashed and couldn’t make it through all 1200k without repeated restarts. Much like my body, but I digress. Anyhow, for once it was the recent Garmin devices that were more solid. Maybe they’re finally tackling these problems.

    Of course, Strava was another matter. More often than not Strava failed spectacularly importing long rides. Garmin Connect doesn’t mind, but Strava is a total fail for many (most?) of us so far.

    • Indeed, that’s been my take since I read this post. Garmin is getting the blunt of the complaints for sure but there’s a reason for that. They are in many ways the Microsoft of the industry. And, from my experience, it looks like Garmin just isn’t paying as much attention to the design of their products. As a result, stability gets lost. I’ve run into this personally. I started off with an Elemnt Bolt which was a great bike computer. It wasn’t until I upgraded to an Edge 830 till I started having lots of problems. They were so bad that I took it back after three months and got an Elemnt Roam which I’ve been perfectly happy with. Is it perfect? Nope! But the idiosyncrasies of the Wahoo ecosystem seem far, far easier to deal with than the Garmin one. As for Stava…well…that’s another discussion. Basically, the whole industry is suffering to some degree with a lack of design insight. Everything is about compromise in one way or another. Kind of sucks really.

    • tfk, the5krunner

      yes I was sent a FIT file from a ROAM owner asking me to fix it for the PBP. perhaps one of your colleagues. I’m half-inspired to do that ride next year.

      I mean, couldn’t you guys have stopped your devices at the end of the day? if some of your FIT files had lots of developer fields (from garmin devices) then you would have probably exceeded the strava 25mb (IIRC) size limit.

      you CAN combine fit files afterwards (or at least I can)

      anyway, I thought the problem was near the end when the wahoo devices decided to install a firmware update mid-ride. WiFi?

  49. Thanks for this review,

    More than 8 months I bought and been informing you Garmin programmers (beta team) about a dummy course/strava segment problem with edge 820

    I don’t know if it holds true also for 830 , but for now, on 820, “Time to End” remaining is based on course/segment “average speed” and “Dist to End”, and doesn’t take into account the uploaded course/segment information!

    This used to be calculated just fine with edge 305 and 810 I owned : the calculate “Time to End” was based on the uploaded virtual pacer “Time to End” and not the avg speed from the beginning of the course. It was obviously an estimation because the edge (like no one yet i guess) can predict future, but at least it would be based on history/plan and so what “time to end” remained indeed for the virtual pacer.

    So now that varia radar is compatible with some Wahoo GPS, (link to dcrainmaker.com), i don’t see any good reason keeping up begging for firmware update , will just sold to the best my 820 as soon i have enough money to complete and get a wahoo elmnt, and will never come back to edge , based on the poor Garmin programming (and maths) skills and reactivity

  50. Rahadi

    I completely agree with you!! I had Forerunner 910XT since 2009 and Vivoactive HR since 2016. These devices worked great until last year. My peak of frustation was yesterday suddenly my Garmin Vivoactive HR had error issue (Sept 6th, 2019) and it was not the first time. It couldn’t count distance & steps (GPS active). I did the reset to default and it worked again like a charm but my previous data (the previous day – Sept 5th, 2019) was completely disappeared in my Garmin Connect Web & App.

    FYI, since January 2019 I tried to attain 60 days badges point but always experienced this issue when I got 45-55 days and I had to start from 0 day again (yesterday should be my 57th day to attain 60 days badge). It had been 5 times for God sake!!

    Finally I have enough and time to let go my Garmin devices after being a Garmin loyalist for 10 years. Bye, Garmin!!

  51. Andras

    all completely true. I have disappointed so many times I am seriously considering alternatives to Garmin. The same reason made me changing from PC/Windows to Mac 10 years ago – stability. I just hated to spend tens of hours with reinstalling software and fixing issues. It is not like Apple is perfect, far from that. But the same with Garmin. I never wanted to know which file contains the error logs on my Garmin device. But I do know. And I have spent so many hours with setting up my watch after a hard reset. Because you CANT save all the settings. Shame.

  52. christine

    I’ve had issues with my new Garmin Fenix 5x pretty much from day 1. It worked fine for the first week or so – although the syncing to phone over bluetooth never really worked to be honest. But then things got worse. It started doing this weird thing where when I started a workout (run or cycle) I’d notice distance covered wasn’t displaying. So basically the GPS tracking wasn’t working. Then when I’d try and end or cancel the workout it would come up with the “Saving” or “Cancelling” screen which then doesn’t disappear until the unit eventually dies. I’ve tried syncing the unit and updating and that didn’t help. I’ve searched online but haven’t seen anyone else complain about this issue. Am I doing something wrong?
    Thanks for your fantastically informative website and posts!
    Christine

  53. CAM

    My wife has had issues with her Fenix 5S lately, essentially erratic HR behavior. We have tried side by side with and older edge 25 and results are very obvious. Garmin tech support has been terrible. It has taken over 48 hrs to get responses, and now that finally they agreed that unit may be faulty they only notified us that unit had arrived ( after posting) literally 1 week after that watch was delivered. We are 3 weeks counting… unit with them… no response. Much higher expectations for such a high priced item. This is Garmin Australia.

  54. MichMT

    I have to agree. I am THIS close to buying another brand’s offering. I have had issues with multiple Fenix and Forerunner models. My current watch (Fenix 5 plus) is now giving me problems with the map it draws of my runs. When I upload to Connect, it puts the lap makers in the right spot but draws the red line wrong, as if it lost track of me for 3-5 miles of my 10 mi run. But it didn’t!

  55. JD

    Forgot how to do this so used browser search to locate this text:
    universal fixit site:https://www.dcrainmaker.com
    Notice how the page is located identifying my prior comment, but the link does not go there.
    Is there some other trick to searching and clicking through?
    My latest 1030 weirdness is LiveTrack appears to be working fine (GC on phone; device shows paired with LiveTrack active) but the GPS track never shows up online.

  56. David SC

    Talk about a hatchet job. This latest update on the Fenix 6x Pro basically bricked the connectivity and music of the device. Forums are swamped since Friday, and Garmin is MUM. You can’t change headphone volume anymore, stuck on low, and the device has to be restarted all of the time to sync.

    That along with new OHR issues that weren’t present. My Fenix now sits in a drawer and I’m wearing my AW5. I would return my Fenix, but it was a gift. Is there an alternative that also has music? Polar and Suunto don’t have music.

    • Jens

      Holy smoke David, I got a F5X Plus as recently as March this year, mainly because of a larger display, but in reality it isn’t so much bigger, it’s just a bigger sized watch, so therefore I’m interested in a 6X Pro (which makes use of a bigger display in a watch the same size) but that might not be a good idea then… Sorry to hear that!
      I have a TomTom Adventurer which has music 🙂 (I don’t use music however, but it’s a watch that hasn’t showed me any bugs 🙂 )

    • David SC

      Thanks. I’m going to look at it now. I’m so frustrated!

  57. NY

    The 6X firmware is apac now a month old with no pacepro, now default power modes for activities, no optical hr for swimming etc. With some heavy marketing done for those, why is such significant difference in version between regions is hard to comprehend.

  58. Seriously, most of the people facing the same problems & also they want to know how to fix these problems. Thanks for sharing this

  59. Janyne Kizer

    Do you have any more updates on the OWS fix?

    • David SC

      3 weeks later and I returned the watch. I got a new one and turned off auto-updates. I’m leaving the watch at software version 3.0, which JUST WORKS.

      My Equipment:
      iPhone X
      AW5
      AirPods 2
      Garmin Foot pod
      Garmin Running Dynamics Pod
      Scosche Rythme+
      Garmin Tempe’
      Runscribe+

      All works under 3.0. All doesn’t work properly under 4.10 and 4.11. Disconnects, cut outs, you name it. It’s so unstable it is unusable.

    • RE: OWS

      I think they’ve mostly been rolled in back in late Aug and early September, at least to the FR945/Fenix 6/MARQ – things seem relatively good there. I’ll check in though on the status across all the devices, since it wasn’t just limited to those.

    • David SC

      I’m speaking strictly of the Fenix 6X Pro (all Fenix 6 models). I believe it’s also affecting the 945 and Marq models. 4.10 is something else! Wonders if they did any real world testing outside of AI Simulators.

      I’ve emailed Garmin back and forth with phone and watch files/diags, but they haven’t replied with anything in 2 weeks other than simple info that they already have like “What is the sensor hub version you have”, which they already have. But no answers on all of the problems.

      if I make it sound bad, well, it is. 3.00 is practically perfect in comparison. I’m enjoying the watch again.

    • David SC

      FYI, the new update 4.2 for the Fenix 6 series addressed none of the major issues introduced with 4.10. The smart buyer will avoid these updates and stick with what came with the watch, turn auto-updates off.

      DCR, what in the world is going on at Garmin!

  60. Antoine De Groote

    I might be wrong, but after reading your Garmin reviews, I believe to understand that Garmin have separate development teams for each product. My reflexion might be naive, but that would mean to me that every team would implement the same thing and each time reinvent the wheel. I’m sure though that in reality this is not the case (it just can’t), at least I hope so, for them and for us.

    It would seem to me that it would make more sense that they have development teams for features and/or types of sports and then put the required features together for each device as needed, on a modular basis.

    Ray, would you have an opinion on this or clarify how it really is?

    And regarding a former employee noting the terrible code quality: I’m not surprised at all. I imagine that in the early days, when processors weren’t as powerful, coders needed to take shortcuts and questionable programming techniques. As time went by and processors became more powerful, instead of cleaning up the code and have a good base, they just added features to the mess that they inherited (from themselves). Inevitably the day will come (or already came) where it becomes impossible to master the beast that they created. To me this becomes apparent with the fact that many seem to agree with, that each firmware update fixes one thing but breaks to others.

    I’m a Garmin fan, and I still use their products (except the Vector 3 with which I had a terrible experience), and I hope that it will remain so. But the days where I NEEDED to have a Garmin are gone. Now are the days where I WANT a Garmin. In the future, the days might come where I need to SWITCH FROM Garmin. As I said, I hope this will not happen, but in the end of the day my money goes to the best product.

    And I believe it will be easier for other companies to catch up with hardware quality than it will be for Garmin to keep the edge on the software side.

    I’m looking firward to what will happen when Wahoo brings out their first watch and thus enter another large part of the market that Garmin still dominates.

    Just my 2 and a half cents.

    • “It would seem to me that it would make more sense that they have development teams for features and/or types of sports and then put the required features together for each device as needed, on a modular basis.”

      It’s a blend. They have an Outdoor team that’s responsible for the Fenix product line, and a Fitness team responsible for the Forerunner product line, and a Vivo team responsible for the Vivo product line, etc…

      But these days these teams are highly integrated and share features (modules specifically) between them far more deeply than ever before. You want specific product teams to have human ownership over a product line – so they understand the ‘point’ of that product line. A Vivoactive 4 customer is by and large not the same person as a Fenix 6X Pro Solar customer. Sure, sometimes it can be – but mostly not.

      But you also want the flexibility to grab those modules and pull them in. Like we saw recently with the Fenix 6 getting a bunch of the new Vivoactive 4 features. Of course, that was planned countless months out, so it wasn’t really just some accidental thing. So much so in fact that the features didn’t launch on the Fenix 6 but were purposefully held back to make a splash with the Vivo lineup a mere 7 days later. Then, those features were added back in after they had been announced on Vivo.

      As for Wahoo and watches, I’d argue there’s far too much reading of the rumor mill that not. Making a bike computer is hard. Making a watch in 2019 is infinitely harder, and getting harder with a higher by by the month. I think it may be difficult, if not impossible for smaller companies to launch connected watches going into 2020, that compete with Garmin/Apple/Fitbit/Samsung/etc… primarily due to the music/streaming, LTE/carrier, and payment provider relationships. I know some people won’t/don’t want those things, but those are becoming dial-tone these days. And they’re incredibly expensive to get up and running.

  61. MB

    This article and all the comments have me considering a return on the unopened Edge 830 sitting on my stairs in a box from Garmin. I might just stick to tracking rides on my old Cyclo 505 and Fenix 1, both of which have zero reliability issues. I don’t really need to be paying good money for any more frustrations in life.

  62. Frank Besseling

    Hi Ray, it is already a couple of months ago that this post triggered a lot of reactions. Except one: a reaction of Garmin itself. Did I miss that? Or was there really no reaction? Hard to believe, but that would really show disinterest in the ”voice of the customer”.

    Can you update us on the current status?

    Regards, Frank

    • Kristian

      I would also be interested to know if Garmin responded in any way. They haven’t done so publicly, but I think we all wonder what their reaction to Ray was in private.

      The currenty disasterous handling of the badly-flawed latest version of Garmin Connect for iOS suggests they’re learning nothing.

      As a Fenix 5+ (as well as multiple iterations of the Edge devices) owner it is a source of minor irritation that software functions such as Training Focus and PacePro are being withheld from my device, which is more than capable of running them. But that minor frustration is made manifestly more annoying when we experience such basic issues with the software such as the inability to sync activities or the fact Training Load simply will not sync between devices (something they acknowledged wasn’t working properly 5 months ago but still haven’t fixed and last commented on 3 months ago).

      I think many long-term Garmin customers are waiting for some sign that Garmin is learning and committed to improvement. I suspect we won’t wait forever, and the recent popularity of the Wahoo cycling computers will accelerate and many of us will be very receptive to valid competitor watch when it appears.

      Regards
      Kristian

    • Jens

      Hi Kristian,

      Sorry to hear about having problems. I have to say I’m surprised. I have lots of Garmins, the latest being 5X+ and I’ve had very few problems syncing or other things. Honestly the 5X+ has had the most sync problems of my Garmins but still it’s very few times, less than a handful. Not sure what problems you have with the iOS app either, mine has worked well.

    • I’ve had a number of discussions with Garmin about the post, though, none directly (as in: At no point were they like ‘So…that post you wrote’). Instead, the discussions have mostly been around specific issues I discussed:

      A) Openwater swimming accuracy
      B) Live tracking

      And then some minor tangential quality related stuff briefly touched on above with specific issues.

      In the case of openwater swimming for example, Garmin did seem to react pretty strongly in terms of fixing the issues. They made engineers/product folks do hundreds of swims over the summer trying to fix the issue across numerous products, and to their credit their just released Swim 2 watch has by far the best openwater swim GPS tracks I’ve seen on a watch anytime recently. That same update has already hit other Garmin watches too.

      For the live tracking, it sounds like that’s a much longer project, that they said they wanted to circle back on later this year. It sounds like there were some simpler fixes that were made, and then a longer list of changes being made behind the scenes that was going to take some time. They admitted there was no point in telling me about that until they were sure they nailed it.

      Which, I think is sorta the thing I said in my post above: Nothing Garmin can say will convince me. They simply have to do. They have to get better at quality.

      Finally, as for the noted iOS issues – I’d be super hesitant on blaming Garmin on this one. In looking through the forums and various comments elsewhere, the overwhelming majority of these iOS issues have nothing to do with Garmin, but with the messiness that Apple created with IOS13 and changes to BT pairing (they removed all BT pairings, so everyone has to re-auth every device you’ve ever paired – which can go wrong a horrible number of ways). Whether or not Garmin could be fully prepared for that is’ debateable. I’ve been having issues on just as many non-Garmin units as Garmin units on iOS13, even including the Apple Watch.

      And finally – for bits like not adding new firmware features to old watches – I think that certainly is valid to an extent. I just don’t know where the line in the sand is for that extent. Garmin adds more features to older devices than any other company – period. One only need to look at the Edge 1030 to see that, or even the Fenix 5 firmware logs. I think a lot of features people don’t realize.

      Where it rubs people the wrong way is bits like the training load aspects you noted. And again, I don’t know what the right solution is there. Where ‘solution’ = both something good for the consumer, but also viable from a business perspective.

    • Franz Dengler

      I am really angry about Garmin information policy. I have a Fenix 5 with unusable OWS. My very old 910XT is much better. I tested that with both watches on both hands. Now you write Garmin has learned and made a great swimming watch. Nice. Even the 910xt was a great swimming watch. But there is no information if there will be a Fenix 5 update. Or if I have swimming crab. Btw. The 8.0 version worked. Doesn’t seem to be a HW Problem.

    • Your Fenix 5 is based on a MediaTek chipset, whereas the 2019 units are based on Sony.

      My understanding is both are being worked concurrently, just on different train tracks.

    • Franz Dengler

      Thank you nice to hear.

    • David SC

      Hi DCR,

      GCM was fine until Garmin updated about 2 weeks ago. Since that time just about all Garmin Devices are about unusable with IOS. Mine loses the ability to sync all the time, weather is broken. I’ve started back to wearing my Apple Watch and am a packing tape strip away from returning this second Fenix 6x Pro.

      Let along the problems the newest firmware and sensor hub caused with the WHR. It’s so inaccurate now, and unusable in the pool. I’m so frustrated with this device. Features I love, but it’s useless like this!

    • Kristian

      I’ll be honest I didn’t actually expect you to respond Ray, my post was somewhat rhetorical. I’m appreciative that you have though.

      What I was curious about was, frankly, whether anyone there had ever acknowledged the general thrust of your article – namely that their increasing software instability is a ticking time bomb for their market share. As you say, actions would speak louder than words, but failure to recognise problems usually indicates that solutions will not be forthcoming. It sounds like they haven’t acknowledged it and the myriad live issues for users certainly suggests they aren’t addressing it.

      I was hesitant to blame Garmin on release of iOS 13 – mainly because not one single device I had didn’t work as before after a simple re-pairing, including my Garmin devices. I heard reports of issues but it seems that after the early updates to iOS everything with Garmin was working fine. Then Garmin released 4.24.0.17…and that certainly hasn’t been fine. There isn’t a place on the internet that people aren’t screaming about that. No activity sync, no weather, no ability to log in to music services, etc.

      And my issue isn’t really that it happened, these things do. It’s been Garmin’s reaction. They had reps on their users forums jumping in to blame Apple for the notifications change (which is, as you say, totally on Apple) whenever anyone suggested it was a Garmin problem. But absolute silence on the Connect issues…which they’ve now admitted they knew about for at least 5 days before their Product Support team were still telling customers reporting it that “we haven’t had this issue reported to us”. If they’d owned it early and said they were working on a fix then it would have been a minor inconvenience for a week or two, and quickly forgotten thereafter. Now it’s a major issue of lost trust.

      I have to categorically disagree with you about Garmin adding more features to older devices. I’ve seen no evidence for that if I’m honest. In fact, I think Apple has a much more demonstrable track record of introducing new software features to devices capable of them over a much longer period of time. I would also argue the reason the Edge devices seem to have benefitted more than the watches is because there is genuine competition there with the Wahoo devices. On the watch side of things, it’s really only the Apple Watch and I definitely don’t see that as a comparable device for the purposes of most Garmin customers.

      I could handle the withholding of Load Focus, etc, from the 5+. I might not agree with it, but it would be what it is. But the fact that also owning the 5+ means the feature redundanr on the Edge 1030… that’s unarguably a nonsense. Likewise silly things like Intensity Minutes. Have one Garmin device with that feature, it will work. Buy another Garmin device that doesn’t and you literally lose the feature on the device that’s supposed to have it. That’s not a business model, that’s madness. Garmin’s base logic that users don’t do activities, devices do is the root of that and it shows just lacking in customer-centricity their approach is right now, if I’m honest

      Thanks again for replying, and for all the excellent content over the years.

      Regards
      Kristian

    • Kristian

      I’m glad, and honestly amazed, you’ve avoided the sync activities with Garmin Connect, Jens.

      As I said above, there isn’t a place on the internet where people aren’t reporting it. And after eventually speaking on Friday to a senior manager in Garmin U.K., they themselves acknowledge that the problems are widespread (she wouldn’t confirm it was “universal”, but did say “many, if not most, users” are affected). Likewise the Wi-fi issue that they’ve hastily release firmware updates to try and fix.

      As I said to Ray above, the fact I can’t see weather on my Fenix isn’t a big deal to me, a couple of weeks without updating my Spotify playlists really isn’t a drama. Having to wait until I get home after work to plug in and sync activities for a couple of weeks, meh who cares. If Garmin had been open and up front as soon as they knew they had a major issue, it would have occupied my brain for minutes at most. Instead they hid from it, they lied to users who reported issues and they allowed customers to spend precious hours trying to troubleshoot and fix fixes themselves when Garmin knew fine well that they couldn’t. That’s where they’ve breached my, and many others, trust and that’s a problem for me. It’s not the first time I’ve been lied to by a Garmin rep but despite having owned dozens of Garmin devices in the past, I can’t see myself giving more money to a company who treats it’s customers with such contempt.

      Genuinely that saddens me because they do make fantastic hardware. But the software issues highlighted by Ray, and more importantly the lack of trust, really more than out weigh that. I don’t believe in giving revenue to any business that won’t stand behind its products.

    • Hi David-

      Yeah, 2 weeks ago is probably when your phone updated to iOS13. 🙂 Everything you noted is consistent with that.

      Things like activity sync are part of that, it’s all part of the sync. It’s a good reason to also configure WiFi on your device – so at least that stuff goes out that way.

      RE: Kristian-

      It’s interesting – I noticed on Garmin’s support page last night while looking up reference for something else, that they’ve basically got a banner for iOS13 that shows up on every page that pretty much says ‘Got issues, call us, we’ll get you righted’.

      I do agree with you though on communications. It might have behooved Garmin to send out an e-mail to iOS users (they know who those are), or even a push notification from the GCM app, or something, that basically says the same as that banner: ‘Got issues, call/chat/text/etc us’, along with a help page to quickly get people sorted.

      For adding features to devices, I think the challenge is comparing to Apple every time. It’s a different business model, despite both selling watches. Apple mostly cares about your revenue via phones (and now services). Garmin doesn’t do either. Doesn’t necessarily make it right, but, it is what it is. I’d like to see Garmin commit to some sort of product cycle of ‘2 years of updates for everything physically possible from a hardware standpoint’.

      In any case, check out the Fenix 5 firmware listing as a good example of just how many things have been added. And sometimes a single line item is really like 10 features behind the scenes. link to www8.garmin.com

    • Kristian

      Thanks again for replying Ray.

      Yes, the banner is there. But absolutely none of the steps they offer fix the new issues introduced in 4.24.0.17. They may well fix other issues, but they don’t fix those… Product Support, when they finally admit the problem, also admit there is nothing the user can do but sit and wait for then to work out the bugs in the Connect app and release a new one.

      Precise words from “Chris” in that team: “it looks like our engineers are still scratching their heads…researching what went wrong with the new Garmin Connect APP [sic]”. They know that 4.24.0.17 caused issues over and above the ones the banner was put up for. That banner you reference was up there before this release. As you say, it would be easy for them to contact affected customers and warn them not to waste time trying to fix things. And if they had, few would have lost a moment’s sleep, they’d just have waited for the fix.

      Regarding the new features, I agree with your 2 year cadence, for what it’s worth. And I wasn’t actually comparing Garmin to other manufacturers, until you did. But as I said, even if Garmin said they weren’t going to offer new features at all after launch then consumers could make their own decision. That’s acceptable to me, even if I don’t agree with it. I’d like PacePro, for example, but it wasn’t a feature of the device I bought so it’s acceptable not to have it.

      What’s not acceptable is *losing* features, such as the ones I mentioned above, because I’m a repeat customer. Honestly, no one at Garmin – if they thought about it for 5 minutes – could possibly argue that it’s reasonable to render some features of a device useless because a user buys a second Garmin device. It’s utterly ludicrous and I would absolutely love to hear them try to give a rationale for that. My efforts with Product Support have yielded an “it is what is it” response.

      If I only used an Edge 1030, then I’d have Load Focus and Exercise Balance. Because I have a Fenix as well, which I use for running, those metrics on the Edge are useless as they don’t incorporate data that I have synced to Garmin and the device. If I only had the Fenix then I would have Intensity Minutes, Stress, etc.; but because I use the Edge for cycling, those metrics are useless as they don’t incorporate data synced to Garmin (and the device). Those are just examples, but can anyone possibly justify it? It’s not those metrics per se, but the principle.

      Again, thank you.
      Kristian

    • Valleri

      Blaming Apple? For what? Garmin has the chance to solve the bugs for lots of months. Many people where complaining about the bad state already in the beta. Answer: This is a beta version. It will be fixed on time with the ios 13 release.

      What happened? Nothing. Blame Garmin instead of Apple

    • David SC

      Exactly Vallari,

      Garmin Connect Mobile for IOS updated last night. Guess what, the big problem was not fixed. Sync breaks again, and no weather. 3 weeks of this BS.

      I have no problems with my other non-apple devices, including formSwim goggles that sync, Runscribe+ that sync, of course my Apple Watch just works.

      There is absolutely no excuse for the poor quality that we are seeing, it’s going downhill in a spiral, very fast. Garmin doesn’t care, they care about the bottom line and with the new product releases, i’m sure they are rolling in the dough, so everything is good, right?

      I’m at a boiling point here with these problems.

    • David C

      Good Morning Ray,

      Ok, we are going on 3 weeks now with GCM being broken. Along with a slew of serious problems across all product lines with the device firmwares. I have honestly never seen things so bad.

      I really don’t know if this is a hole Garmin can dig out of. There is absolutely no excuse for the lack of communications, disconnect between the support people and the programmers, and quality of the programming.

      I don’t see how anyone can blame anyone but Garmin. I’m back to using an AW5 and just gonna be happy with a device that JUST WORKS. I’ll miss the advanced data that Garmin brings, but it’s not worth it if you can’t use it!

    • Do you have a Garmin support ticket #? I’m happy to take examples where people have tried contact support for help and are either left in limbo – or aren’t fixed.

    • Paul S.

      I’ve had few problems with GCM, mostly because of the Bluetooth problems that iOS 13 caused with multiple devices including my AW5. I happened to check the weather on my Edge 830 during a ride yesterday, and it was there, which usually isn’t the case if I check before a ride (it seems to be delayed a bit; of course, before a ride I just check on my phone). I uploaded photos using GCM after my ride, and it worked fine. It’s certainly not my primary way to upload rides (WiFI on an Edge 830, or plugging it into my Mac if that doesn’t work), but it’s been working about as well as ever except for the connectivity problems.

    • Traveller

      DCR:

      I’m also pretty frustrated. This has meant that I’m being forced to travel with a laptop in order to sync activities right now.

      My Garmin support ticket number (as you asked) is 15163882K1

    • david c

      I have 2 that I’ve given up on.
      15151092k1 and 15136395k1

      Even the outdoor Beta team (I’ve emailed them) ask for my logs and never get back about a fix. Just keep referring to old “fixes” that don’t work.

    • Thanks – can you clarify region?

    • David C

      Hello Ray. Southeastern USA. (South Carolina).

    • Traveller

      UK in my case.

  63. Kristof

    Interesting article… Garmin has a lot of software instabilities.
    Is there someone who has a license of the fit file repair tool and can help me recover a fit file from a garmin device? Greetings Kristof

  64. Humaid Alghandi

    Thank you for your spot on article. Thought i was the only one having issues.
    I programme my workouts on Garmin App. but i won’t get all the workout sync into my watch. Help center can not figure it out too. They can not help. It is frustrating and i am looking into other watches now.
    Thank you.

    • David C

      I’ve come to the conclusion, even though I don’t want this, that the AW4/5 will serve my purposes. It just works and works well.

      I really wanted a rugged watch, but this experience with my Fenix 6x Pro has been horrible, utterly horrible. HR issues, connectivity with my running hardware issues, SPO2 issues, Music issues, sync issues. Just completely unstable.

      WHY would anyone want to blow 800+ bucks for these headaches. Garmin has gone downhill by a large margin in the past few years. My Fenix 3HR was fantastic, so I decided to give them a try again. Sorry I did.

    • Traveller

      I hear you, however the AW4/5 does not have the battery power for those long duration events. Also the start stop and pause can be tough as they are not buttons. That said, in every other way, the AW is a more sophisticated device. Also the sensors are significantly more sensitive and GPS often better (minus the trade mark Apple smoothing).

      If Apple had longer battery life I’d probably switch back. It’s literally the only thing holding me back right now.

    • David C

      Apple could make out like a champ if they released a “rugged sports watch” with at least 3 days battery life. Not so much fashion, but sports and outdoor type. The battery life is a pooper, and I’m honestly shocked they released the 5 without increased battery life.

  65. Kevin in Brighton

    The elephant in the room here was mentioned by FormerEmployee above.

    Garmin high end products contain features that don’t work properly. On the Fenix5, 935 and 945 I’ve had the optical heart rate (OHR) sensor cracks in time. Rather than use glass or composite they use plastic, so it cracks after some exposure to normal cool and warm temperatures in the UK. Northern UK isn’t hot and has less temperature fluctuations than the US and central Europe.

    Given that they don’t just admit there’s a problem but instead just replace devices, when it’s known the replacement device will of course eventually fail, is very weird and shows they only value selling devices. Lots of new Garmin customers have zero idea they’re purchasing a flawed design. In fairness even Ray here has suggested it’s the user or an unlucky device hardware they received, but this is factually untrue. I can take anybody here with a 935, fenix5 or 945, use it in northern England and the OHR sensor will eventually break. That’s crazy bad design! Garmin then said the watch isn’t affected in waterproofness or operation; nonsense! The cracks do lead to leaks (happened to me) and all the 935 features, such as VO2 max calculation, resting heart rate, that differentiate from their lower and cheaper models are based on the OHR sensor.

    I’ve won in the end by switching to a vivoactive, the original tiny model Garmin produced. Got it on gumtree for £25! I’ve sold my 935, 945 and Fenix5 in the last 2 years, thankfully not losing too much money, and will not purchase another Garmin until they resolve their hardware and software issues.

    The 945 and Fenix6 series retail at £500 to £900. Imagine if your mobile phone cost this much and had bad hardware design, frequently broke; the company wouldn’t be in business much longer. Samsung have had a hard time the last few years but the only only ONLY way is if we all collectively start a class action lawsuit against Garmin – who are only concerned about marketing and selling more devices – and switch to other products or older Garmin products with no/less flaws.

    Me paying £800 for a fenix6 pro premium isn’t feasible when I know that the GPS chip is rubbish and I can’t swim easily with it. The build quality and software are questionable. If you seriously are ok spending this every two years on Garmin products that fall apart, break with careful daily use then I suggest you are a fool, money, easily parted.

    Ray, I also expect harsher criticism from you on Garmin and the fact that there is clearly a rampant OHR sensor problem that breaks half the features of these higher end watches. Apple, fitbit and the rest don’t have this problem, but it’s important to recognise that even just using a 935 for a few swims results in the altimeter/barometer beginning to break and fluctuate much more than with zero swims.

    To be frank, I expect more university style analysis and comparison using empirical proven data rather than not stating what is plan to most experience Garmin high end watch users: the products are lower quality now but better marketed and can’t withstand triathlon use without something eventually breaking. My last 945 and 935 didn’t even get used much and the OHR sensor cracked whilst it was in the house at home.

    If Apple, Samsung and Suunto had as many hardware and software faults as Garmin they’d be embarrassed and people would stop buying them. Speak with your money people!

  66. kalamarios

    Ray, maybe you are following the Garmin forums and specifically the bug that has stopped pretty much all devices from uploading activities from iOS right? I am not sure if it has hit your Garmin/iPhone but my FR235 on iOS 12 has stopped uploading for weeks.

    I tried to install Garmin Express (yes, back to the last decade) on my W10P laptop to upload through that route, but the installer ended up throwing an error too 🙂

    It is pretty clear that no-one at Garmin is listening or understanding in how much software trouble they are. This sort of “technical debt” only gets worse in years to come unless they drastically change things …