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Hands-on: Garmin Vector 3 Power Meter


Today Garmin announced their third generation of power meters, Vector 3.  This new unit brings sweeping changes both easily seen outside, but also internally as well.  In fact, I’d argue the internal changes are far more important than the new pod-less design on the outside.

I’ve been riding with them for over a month now – and have a pretty good grasp on where things stand with the latest power meter to hit the market (the second power meter announced this week at Eurobike).

Given it’s a busy day here at Eurobike (and the show doesn’t even start till tomorrow), let’s dive straight away into the details.

What’s New:


This is the rare case where you can actually judge a book by its cover.  Though, there’s an equal amount going on under the covers that you won’t find apparent or in any press release.  First though, let’s start outside.  Captain Obvious statement, the pods are gone:


Yes, external pods that housed the battery and communications pieces have evaporated, and are now housed totally within the pedal.  You can see the difference above between Vector 1/2 and Vector 3.

After that, the changes get much more subtle.  In having a conference call with the Vector team, one quote at the beginning stuck out, the Vector product lead saying:

“What are the things we don’t like in the reviews currently about the pedals. What are the things that hold us back from being the best power meter, the best pedal based power meter?”

As part of that list, there was everything from the pod design, to the spindle body, to bike stores dealing with multiple SKU’s, to even the pedal body.

So to capture all those changes, here’s a bulleted list I’ve put together based on that conference call, because everyone likes bulleted lists:

No longer using Exustar pedals: Instead they internally developed the pedal.  The Vector team said that while Exustar served them well, their goal with the pedal body “aimed to be considered like Shimano & Look”.  You can see the new pedal just looks really clean now – and I’d say that at least from a looks standpoint they achieved that (it’ll likely take me a year or so to find out if that’s true from a durability perspective).

– Contains Bluetooth Smart: This is used both for firmware updates, as well as connectivity to head units using Bluetooth Smart (i.e. to a Polar or Suunto watch, or Zwift on iOS, or similar).  See more notes on those down in the next section.

– Elimination of pods also eliminated SKU’s: If you didn’t buy Vector you may not know there were actually multiple Vector SKU’s, based on pod sizes.  This in turn meant bike shops had to stock these multiple SKU’s and try and figure out who might buy what size.  Vector 3 eliminates that, there’s only one SKU.

– Decreased weight: The unit now weighs 162g, versus the previous 179g.

– Changed bearing type: Previously they were bronze bearings inside, now they’re needle bearings.

– Totally different spindle body: Simply put, it’s all different both inside and out. Much of this of course is the result of changing everything else within the pedal, like the bearings.

– Increased rider weight: The certified weight is 105KG (231 lbs) for rider weight, previously it was 90KG (198 lbs).  That may not sound like a lot, but that’s actually a fair bit different.

– Update pedals via phone or Edge: Previously you had to use the desktop or Edge device to update your firmware.  Now you can use the Garmin Connect Mobile app to update Vector 3 firmware.  That’s due to inclusion of Bluetooth Smart.

– Slight increase in spacer size: I think Garmin learned that people put too few spacers on, so you’ll notice the Vector 3 ones are a hair bit thicker so that if someone only puts one on, it’s still safe.

– Slight decrease in battery life: Previously it was 150 hours on Vector 1/2, however with Vector 3 it’s roughly in the 120 hour range with Cycling Dynamics and Bluetooth Smart enabled.  If you don’t use a Cycling Dynamics capable head unit (it’s smart enough to know that now), it’ll get you closer to 150 hours again with just normal bike power.  Also, they’re looking at allowing users to enable/disable the Bluetooth Smart power transmission if they want to eke out a few more hours as well.

Do keep in mind that if you first used Vector 1, a lot has changed since then.  About a year after the initial Vector 1 released (but well before Vector 2), they ran through all of the hardware changes they made in the first 6-12 months internally. And of course, much of those learnings went into the totally revamped Vector 3.


Phew, got all that?  Good. Let’s move onto the next section and talk through setting it up and using it out on a ride.

The Basics:


Starting with getting the unit installed, it’s as simple as taking out any pedal wrench and twisting the pedals on.  You’ll want to stash a spacer in between as usual (they come with it), to ensure the pedal body doesn’t rub against the crank arm.  This is the norm for all power meter pedals:


You do NOT need a torque wrench for this any more.  It used to be with Vector 1 and 2 (yes, 2 also), that you needed a torque wrench to get accurate measurements.  Or you at least needed to be sure that you cranked them down really hard.  I showed in my original Vector review what happened if you didn’t torque to specs.

All of that’s gone now.  Just wrench till it feels fine.  Yes, I’m being ambiguous on purpose, because no, it hasn’t seemed to matter in my testing.  I’ve tightened them to ‘barely snug’, and then gone out and done a single 4-6 seconds hard effort, and the power numbers look on-point.

As an aside, I went on a quest to try and find a pedal wrench that would travel in carry-on luggage (most are too big for TSA/etc security rules).  Astoundingly, I actually found one that will work (no knives or anything in it):

DSC_9477 DSC_9481

So if you want to travel carry-on with just your pedals – there ya go!

In any event, with that done you’ll notice the inside of each pedal has a small LED status indicator.  This helps for everything from troubleshooting to figuring out if the batteries have died.


Speaking of which, those batteries are now internal to the pedal body, in a small compartment that’s accessible with a simple Allen key/hex wrench:

DSC_0963 DSC_0965

Sometimes getting this little cap thing back in without the batteries falling out can be tricky.  Not a deal-breaker, and only an issue if you’re trying to do it when the bike itself is perfectly level (like on a trainer).


The batteries have shifted from CR2032 coin cell to LR44 coin cell batteries.  Two per pedal, four in total.


Closing that back up, we’ll go ahead and pair the pedals to the Edge unit.  At present I’m doing that via ANT+, though with the new Edge 1030 I could do that with Bluetooth Smart (same goes with Fenix 5 and FR935).  However, the current firmware doesn’t have Bluetooth Smart power broadcasting enabled quite yet.  Garmin has a target date of mid-October at the latest for this, as they want to be sure it’s available for the trainer season.

They noted that they don’t see a ton of value for existing Edge users in using Bluetooth Smart transmission over ANT+ (and I’d agree, there’s actually reasons not to use that for power meters).  However, they do see value in using Bluetooth Smart to connect to apps like Zwift, TrainerRoad, and others on devices (Apple/iOS) that don’t support ANT+.  Hence why Bluetooth Smart power is in Vector 3.

So why might you not want to use Bluetooth Smart with Vector 3?  Well mainly you’ll get less metrics.  No standard exists on the Bluetooth Smart side for Pedal Smoothness, Torque Efficiency, or the whole of the Cycling Dynamics suite.  Of course – one can argue all day long whether any of those metrics are useful – but if you’re paying for Vector 3 over others, you might as well at least record those things.  Someday someone might figure out how to use them.

Back to pairing though.  It’ll show up on your Edge unit like any other ANT+ power meter.  In this case, I’m using the Edge 1030…simply…because.


As always with pedal based power meters, you’ll want to set your crank length.  In my case that’s shifting from the default 172.5mm to 175mm.


I like to do a zero offset at this juncture.  You’ll do that via the calibrate button:


With that done – you head out and ride.  I typically do 1-2 very short (4-8 second long) sprints with any new power meter on the first ride, but especially pedal based ones.  This helps tighten things up.  I then do another zero offset, mostly out of habit.  At which point, I’m ready to roll.

While riding you’ll get all your normal power meter metrics like total power, power balance, and cadence.  You’ll also get all of the Cycling Dynamics details too.  This includes things like platform center offset, seated/standing time, and so on.  These can be individually picked up and added to data fields, and grouped onto a single Cycling Dynamics page:


And finally, afterwards you’ll get these same metrics on a portion of Garmin Connect (here’s a link if you want to look at it):





Here’s another indoor ride if you want to check that out too.

As you can see, everything is simple and straightforward.  If you can use a hex wrench twice, you can pretty much use these pedals.

Initial Accuracy Tests:

Now I actually flip-flopped a fair bit on whether to have this be a full in-depth review, or just a first look/hands-on.  Ultimately though, I decided on hands-on since I don’t yet have final hardware – and the final hardware I should receive in a few hours or so fixes a couple minor issues I saw in testing.

Still, I’ve got a boatload of rides on it – since late July I’ve been alternating rides between this and other units.  The degree of careful I’ve had to be with all my photos over the past month or so has been nuts!  Every Instagram and Strava pic ever so carefully cropped!

In any event, I’ve been comparing/testing it against a variety of other power meters, including:

4iiii Dual
Power2Max NG
Power2Max NG ECO
PowerTap G3
Stages (left-only)
Elite Direto Trainer
Tacx NEO Trainer
Wahoo KICKR Trainer
Wahoo KICKR SNAP Trainer

And, I’m probably forgetting something else too.  But yeah, a lot of rides with a lot of variety.

And overall – things are really strong.  I’ve experienced only a single spike – once – on a firmware just shy of a month old.  Garmin says they’ve fixed conditions that could have led to that power spike in a firmware update that I received a few weeks ago, and I haven’t seen any other spikes.  Also, I’ve made a very specific point of swapping the living crap out of these pedals between bikes and even back to the same bike – all without a torque wrench.  I’ve never used a torque wrench in any of my Vector 3 tests.  Just did it ’til it felt normal-snug.

In any case, let’s look at some data.

First is an outdoor ride I did.  After doing some warm-up loops, I crossed the city – complete with cobblestones, followed by loops at a popular spot for cyclists, and then returning again across the city.  I mostly went out of my way to find rough spots of road.  Here’s the DCR Analyzer link for those that want to dig into the data themselves.


In this case, I’m comparing data against the 4iiii Precision (dual), as well as the PowerTap G3 hub.  I’m also dual-recording the Vector on both the Edge and the FR935, to validate those numbers match.

Let’s dive into a few of the sprints, starting with this one.


As you can see, all the units track really nicely here.  I’m seeing a little bit of separation between the 4iiii dual Precision prior to this sprint, but it seems to stabilize after.

Here’s another sprint – the same thing – all units come to almost exactly the same point.  Note that as usual with max sprint power figures, you’re going to get a slight bit of difference on timing, due to the way head units and power meters transmit.  So you’ll see they differ within 1-second, but get to that same point regardless.


If we crack open some cadence data from this ride, you’ll see things are very consistent here.  All are within 1RPM at virtually all times, save the PowerTap G3 hub.  But since that’s estimated cadence, we know it varies a little bit more, especially if you back off power briefly.


Finally, a glance at the mean-max graph for this set…which looks really solid.  Note you do see a slight dip on the graph for the 4iiii unit, which is totally my fault when I accidentally paused it in traffic for about 2 minutes.  Since there weren’t any sprints there it’s barely noticeable on the mean-max graph.


Next, let’s head inside for an indoor ride.  Here’s the DCR Analyzer link for that.  This one includes the Wahoo KICKR as well as the Power2Max NG ECO power meter.


As you can see, I was just sorta cruising along on the trainer here for much of it – not a super hard workout.  But I was specifically looking at whether or not there was any drift in the unit – and doing something like this makes it really easy to see.

Let’s dive into that sprint at the end though, as that’s the fun part.


Here you see a bit of a spread of about 23w in total on 915w (so 2.5%).  That’s somewhat normal, though in this particular case I might have expected to see the Vector unit on the upper end of this, given the way power loss works. Either way, for total accuracy we’re within range of the combined unit accuracy ratings.

I did a couple more smaller surges after this point, and you can see things are pretty darn similar:


Some slight reaction time differences of a second or so between different units, but basically all coming to the same numbers each time.

As you can see though – overall things look pretty good.  But since this is pre-prod hardware I’m interested in doing a bunch of riding over the next month on the final hardware to see if that holds true.  And of course, I’ll stack in a bunch more data as well for that final in-depth review.



As noted, while I’m technically on beta hardware, overall things are looking very solid.  This is basically the Vector that everyone wanted years ago before technical limitations came into play (aka: Reality).  It’s small, lightweight, and transmits on ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart.  It doesn’t require a torque wrench, nor does it have pods floating off the side.

So what are the downsides?  Well, mainly just price I suppose.  I’m concurrently working on finishing up writing my Favero Assioma pedals review, and that unit is really solid when it comes to accuracy.  But it’s not so much the accuracy that’s attractive there – it’s the price: $735USD.  Whereas Vector sits at $999USD.  Meanwhile, the PowerTap P1 pedals have instantly priced themselves out of the game at $1,199USD (though, I suspect that’ll shift quickly).  Note they are also selling the usual ‘S’ variant of Vector (Vector 3S), which is a left-only solution and down to $599USD.


Looking at those three pedals though, the Garmin unit is easily the slimmest of the bunch, and the one that looks the most like a regular pedal.  At the same time, the PowerTap P1 has been in the market about two years, so it’s more of a known quantity.  And Favero has been out about a month – and things look pretty solid there.  Said differently: It’s a really interesting three-way race for pedal-based power meters.

Right now the plan is for units to start shipping in late September, so I’ll probably aim for a full in-depth review around then based on final production hardware and software.

With that – thanks for reading, and feel free to drop any questions below!

Update: You can now pre-order Vector 3 (or 3S).  If you use the links here via Clever Training you’ll be able to earn 10% points via the DCR/CT VIP program, plus free US shipping.  It’s expected to ship in late September. 

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  1. Steven Knapp

    What cleats are they using? Something unique to them? Or still friendly with the Keo cleats?

  2. Howie

    Advantages of each that I’m seeing…
    Favero Assioma: chargeable, lighter, Look cleat compatible, less expensive
    Garmin: no pod, nice looking

    • Adam

      I don’t know much about the Assioma (so please correct me if this is out of line!) but my instinct would be that rechargeable batteries mean a poor battery life; not to mention degradation of that rechargeable battery’s capacity over time.

      Personally, I’d rather switch out a disposable coin-cell battery every few months than have to charge it every couple of weeks.

    • Howie

      Adam, that concern was covered in the comments of the Assioma thread. Favero and others have pointed out that any re-charge degradation concerns can be laid aside.

      However, in a pinch, it is nice to be able to just swap out batteries instead of having to wait for a charge… assuming you have batteries to swap out. Environmentally speaking, I like the idea of recharging vs consuming more batteries.

    • Kurt Hannes

      I use Favero Bepro since March 2017 and have had to charge them approximately once a month. For the riding I do, it’s basically at every third Garmin 520 charge. Nothing of a problem IMHO.

      I was easily able to ride home for three hours after the “power meter battery low” warning.

      They’ve (allegedly) doubled the battery life on the Assioma pedals, so I’d have to charge them every 6-8 weeks. Considering the fact how often we charge our phones or other devices, that’s nothing.

  3. Vector 2 -> 3 upgrade path or no dice this time around?

    • I’m not aware of anything.

    • Stuart

      I’d be surprised. Given that the pedal pods in the original (and v2) Vectors contained the hardware to transmit data to the head unit, I can’t see how an upgrade path would be possible, short of swapping over the entire unit. An upgrade to feature parity whilst retaining the pods MIGHT be possible, but that would mean another lot of hardware Garmin would need to keep around for spares into the future.

      No, I think that if you want to upgrade to the v3 Vectors, you’ll need to shell out for the new units. The only reasons I’d have for doing so (Bluetooth support and dropping the need for torquing up) aren’t sufficient for me to fork over the dosh at this stage, but that’s me – you might be different.

  4. Jon

    Park Tool makes a more usable pedal wrench that should travel just as easily, the SS-15
    link to parktool.com

  5. george

    thank you Ray – I had Vector 2’s and they were ok from accurancy (not great). Now I am out for a new pedal based and P1 not my choise since they are bulky, expensive and heavy. I am looking possitive for Assioma or V3 but I wait for your review to decide.
    Price is important and if Assioma are accurate I probably go with them. I dont like V3 are still using the 15mm pedal wrench instead of allen wich is far more practical to carry and use.

  6. dkrenik

    ” It used to be with Vector 1 and 2 (yes, too also)”.

    Maybe that should be: It used to be with Vector 1 and 2 (yes, two also)

  7. Gabriel Reid

    You mention that there are reasons to specifically choose ANT+ over Bluetooth Smart for power meter communications, could you elaborate on this? Based on the TrainerRoad podcast (I think), I’d been led to believe that Bluetooth was preferable to ANT+ due to less issues with signal drop-out due to interference.

  8. Hi Ray, what about oval (QXL and Q-Rings) Chainrings?

  9. Marc Simkin

    Hi Ray, do you know if Garmin plan to offer some sort of upgrade path from the 2 to the 3? I just purchased my Vector 2 at the end of July. Haven’t had them a month yet. Unfortunately, I don’t have the original packaging so I can’t return them. :o( -marc

  10. Jack

    SPD-SL compatibility?

    Waterproofing level?


    • No, just Look Keo compatible.

      IPX7 for waterproofing.

    • Marco Leite

      Hi Ray!

      Do you know why Garmin don’t have SPD version? Maybe copyright problems?

      If Garmin dispose the Vector 3 with SPD cleats, I’ll probably a Vector 3 user. Today I have a Power2max in my road and a Powertap hub in my TT. And I looking for a power meter for use in my TT and eliminate the problem for use only one wheel (today I use only a 88 mm profile wheel mounted with my PT hub).

      Thanks Ray!

    • Karl

      Does that mean the pedal body isn’t replaceable? That’s one thing I like about my V1s

    • Flash

      The Keo tie-in is too bad. I detest the inevitable Keo Creak. (Admittedly, it takes longer to show up these days than it used to.) The Shimano conversion kit is what sold me the Vector 2.

    • Keep in mind it’s not an official Keo pedal. So any specific Keo manufacturing problem wouldn’t likely be seen here.

    • Flash

      Understood. I’ve had the creaks with Keo Keos, and I’ve had the creaks with generations 1 & 2 of the Vectors. Admittedly, they took a much longer time to develop in the Vectors. But no creaks with the Vectors converted to Shimano pedals.

  11. SteveDC

    The PowerTap P1 can often be had for $959.20 plus taxes and S&H from backcountry.com when they do a 20% off coupon. That’s how I snagged a pair.

  12. rodrigo delgado

    wait, so if im 240lbs i cant use these?

    • Kevin

      I’m 220 and haven’t had any issue with my V2’s. OTOH, my FTP is in the low 200’s, so I’m not putting a lot of stress on them

    • Doug Johnston

      Weight Limits- I exceed the limit on both V1 & V2 without issues. At 6’8″ @ 255lb, often standing on hill often push 900-1100 or more watts without issue. After a year on V2, I discovered there was a weight limit on Vectors. Purchased a pair of P1’s that state no weight limit. Continue to use both, I like the pedal metrics of Vector. Needless to say, Garmin rated limit has large safety margin. Not stating to use overweight, just that I haven’t encountered any breakage or issues.

    • Fwiw, the weight limit is actually more focused on the internals of the power sensor spindle than it is a safety issue.

    • Doug J

      Ray, good to know… makes sense. Although between V2 and P1, same routes produce similar results in power. Not identical but consistent in differences… off hand I can’t recall which was a little higher or lower.

  13. Greg Hilton

    These look like a great pedal, let’s hope they are accurate and robust!

    Just noted this bit in your review Ray, I’m 99.9% certain I didn’t install washers onto my P1 pedals, so I wonder if I should?

    >> You’ll want to stash a spacer in between as usual (they come with it), to ensure the pedal body doesn’t rub against the crank arm. This is the norm for all power meter pedals:

  14. Ha Young Park

    Does it support oval chainrings? More precisely, does Vector 3 accurately measure the power output with oval chainrings?

  15. ancker

    How about bearing/spindle replacement?

    I consider pedals a consumable since the bearings eventually wear out and need replaced. I’d hate to have to buy new $750 pedals every few years.

  16. Fred2

    Hmm, lack of a pod makes me want to speculate about the possibility of a mountain bike pedal on the horizon. Probably not for a while, though.

  17. Bill

    Did you do any tests with these using any of the Elemnt units?

    • I don’t believe so. Is there something specifically your interested in? I’ve got a BOLT with me at Eurobike.

    • Bill

      Just wanted to make sure everything worked with the Elemnt head units (setup, power data, etc.) and Garmin hasn’t done anything goofy to prevent competitors from connecting or having access to all the data.

    • Gotchya. At present keep in mind Garmin Cycling Dynamics is limited to Garmin head units. That’s the stuff like Platform Center Offset and Seated/Standing time.

      So on Wahoo today you’re talking core stuff: Power, Power Balance, Cadence, Torque Efficiency, Pedal Smoothness.

    • Steve

      Do they calibrate ok with the bolt, for example, how do you set the installation angles or is that a thing of the past. Will the bolt require an update before use?

  18. Sandra

    Will the bearings be owner serviceable? If not, what is the life expectancy. I can’t really see any reason to go for p1 at all anymore, if the bearings hold up well. P1 had some problem with this, and they used needle bearings as well, did they not? I guess, only time will tell, if Garmin has not tested this thoroughly.

  19. That’s good. so now I’m simply waiting for a price drop on the vector 2s upgrade ; hoping that I will finally know if I’m balanced between my 2 legs :)

  20. Tom Anhalt

    Ray, you didn’t mention who makes that multi-tool with the 15mm wrench. Who’s the maker? Thanks!

    BTW, is it possible to statically check the pedals with a known weight?

  21. Pablo Gonzalez

    Hi Ray,

    Do you think the V3 has a better accuracy that the V1 & V2?


  22. Michael

    Great first look Ray. I am curious why your testing protocols lack comparison to an SRM such as the Dura Ace 9000 or similar? Despite the obvious higher pricing of the SRM models, as a long time SRM customer, many (myself included), still consider the SRM to be the gold standard for powermeters.

    • I’m not aware of anyone (except perhaps SRM themselves) in the power meter or sports technology industry these days that considers SRM the gold standard for power meters.

    • Malik Graves-Pryor

      To be fair however, “no one considers SRM the good standard anymore” without a scientific review and comparison to other current power meters seems hollow.

      Why not review the SRM, compare it to others as you have done with these power meters, and put it to the test once and for all?

      As a longtime SRM owner I have been interested in seeing how other power meters compare so I can make a decision if it’s time to move on or continue purchasing in the SRM family.

      However I’m not going to do that if sites like yours refuse to review current market models against the competition, make comments about how SRM isn’t the good standard, but resist backing that up with a review.

      It just strikes me as odd, and disappointing, that a review site of all places would take such a stance…..

    • leonn


      I’m not Ray, but here his words:

      “Would I buy it: While I do own one, I certainly wouldn’t recommend someone else buy one. With the exception of very specific technical use-cases that other power meters can’t fulfill (higher speed recording rates with older head units), I feel that for 98% of the market today, there are more budget friendly options that are just as accurate. I don’t subscribe to the “gold-standard” concept, maybe at one historical point, but not in this market. And as the Pro Peloton has proved, virtually every other power meter in this list is just as good as an SRM (if not better).”

      link to dcrainmaker.com

    • Malik Graves-Pryor

      Thanks, I had read last year’s roundup, but that was just that. A roundup with commentary.

      It’s not a scientific review like this. I haven’t seen one for SRM in years on this site. Let alone when comparing against new competition.

      Again, that strikes me as odd….

    • I actually do own an SRM power meter and pull it out occasionally.

      But there’s simply no demand for such a review. I think I’ve seen one request for an SRM power meter review in the last year, that’s it.

      And when it comes to things like temperature compensation without stopping, they aren’t industry leading (in fact, it’s easy to trick an SRM power meter). Whereas others do compensate for that, and that matters if you’re doing a long climb where the temperature drifts – especially in a race where you don’t stop.

      All of which ignores other features that people care about: Following the ANT+ standard (which SRM doesn’t do properly all the time), having Bluetooth Smart support (at all), or aspects like not requiring a magnet.

    • Malik Graves-Pryor

      Well now you have two additional requests for a review. Not only on its own merits but when compared to other products like the ones you’ve listed here. :-)

      If I could get no compromise SRM quality for a fraction of the price I will do that. But I need an actual scientific review from sites like this to understand that.

    • dkrenik

      There has been a rather thorough comparison of power meters. The abstract is here:
      link to thieme-connect.de
      The full paper is linked to in a Wattage thread here (see the third post):
      link to groups.google.com

    • While I think the study made good ground, it was undercut by the fact that they didn’t have ownership of the models – and thus couldn’t attest to whether a unit was valid or not. Also, some of the models were too generic. Meaning categorizing all Quarq or Power2max units as one is like saying all Toyota cars are the same.

    • Juri

      Well, long time readers of DCRainmaker know that there are two cases when one must not have unlimited trust to Mr Rainmaker’s writings – namely Wahoo and SRM. Wahoo has always positive reviews no matter what and never gets any real critique (even if the first gen Kickr was really unaccurate and basically flawed design and even if Wahoo doesn’t follow ANT+ standard correctly). And SRM gets always the bashing, no matter what.

    • Sounds like you haven’t read my most recent Wahoo bike computer post.

      But then again, I find that most people who make statements like yours generally don’t actually read what I write.

      As for Wahoo not following the ANT+ standard correctly, I’ve honestly got no idea what your talking about. Care to elaborate?

    • Robin

      Note that it’s not so simple to test power meters to determine which is the most accurate and the most precise. For the former, you need a device whose power output has been calibrated, and by calibration I don’t mean the calibration done in-house at each power meter manufacturer but instead a calibration done in a traceable way by, usually, a national measurement and standards agency or someone certified by such an agency. That’s the only way you can reliably certify such a power source. That might be expensive. While I’ve know doubt that Mrs. Rainmaker’s cupcake shop rakes in piles of dosh (this is based on my belief that cupcakes are the supreme version of cake, especially with they’re covered in delicious mounds of icing, and as such cupcake makers should be richly rewarded), I certainly can’t say what Ray would spend on test equipment.

      Ray can certainly do tests of precision, and I think that his power plots using multiple power meters are a good proxy of a precision test.

  23. Matt oneill

    Do you plan on doing another powerpod review.
    How do you think the accuracy of it stands up against the v3 or the stages

    • I don’t plan to do another review at this point. Aside from some improvements made on road vibration, it’s still essentially the same. Nothing wrong with that, but just where I stand on prioritization.

  24. Rob Rattray

    Can you please let us know if you still need to put these pedals on with a specific torque or can you just fit them like normal pedals? thanks :-)

    • Greg Hilton

      Seems pretty clear in the text Rob under the Basics section Ray typed:

      >> You do NOT need a torque wrench for this any more.

  25. Neal Hood

    Was any preliminary testing done on the single pedal (3S)? If balance is not important to one, I wonder if there are any other advantages of the dual pedal. I realize ultimate accuracy might be a little better, but only a little. I am more interested in response and smoothing times.

  26. tim

    I never realized the low weight limit on the Vector and Vector 2. Sure 198 lbs is kind of a lot, but for anyone over 6’3″ it isn’t too crazy to think (plus I tend to want some amount of margin)

    Glad to see they’ve bumped it up here.

    Also glad to see the extra competition, maybe my next PM will be pedal based rather than crank (still living on old powertap training wheels for now).

  27. Nissim

    Great review. Thanks.

  28. klaus

    really no spd version?

  29. giorgitd

    Interesting pricing choice. If the V3 turn out to be accurate and reliable, P1 must not simply match the USD999, but go below, I think. Or maybe match with a relatively persistent ‘sale’ price. But what would that price be? I’d still pick a reliable/accurate V3 at USD999 over the well-known P1 at USD899. Maybe USD799 would get me to pick P1. Then, is the Assioma in the fight at USD735? I think that it also must go lower, USD 699 or even USD 649. Thoughts on pricing?

  30. Luis

    Garmin screwed me over with v1 and v2… thx but no thx. P1 are bulky but they haven’t failed me in two years!!!

    I am waiting for the assioma review tho.

  31. Mark

    Ray, is there no pedal based PM manufacturer that works with Speedplay still?? Such a huge market is waiting for whoever can come out with one, is it so hard to do??

    • Nope, the only one that was in that camp was Brim Brothers, but they never hit market.

    • Jason Titus

      I haven’t paid much attention to the pedal-based meters because I use Speedplay as well. I always assumed because you could flip them over it was not really conducive to adding a “pod”. Now that the pod appears to be gone, I was hoping they would work toward something like Speedplay in upcoming versions. (fingerscrossed)

  32. DanielD

    Any chance we get a Vector 3 vs Vector 3S comparison chart? I could justify $599 specially when comparing it to other left only solutions and the convenience of a pedal based solution.

    How about a “battle of the left” pm on your annual recommendation? it would be useful for those of us in a limited budget

  33. AliP

    Is there an option for Shimano cleats? eg like the Ultegra conversion with the Vector2 ?

    • usr

      Considering how the V3 pedal body incorporates a battery compartment whereas Shimano bodies (just like V2) don’t I would not hold my breath. The Shimano option might hold the V2 market alive for quite some time (used, leftover stock and maybe even new production).

      I don’t know anything, but I suspect that Shimano could be bound by some “basic principles” Look IP that they can’t sublicence without Look’s consent even if they wanted. In that case, Look could force all third party powermeter pedals onto Keo until the patents run out. As I said, I don’t know (alternatively, Shimano might just be a little stubborn), but the general awkwardness of the V2 conversion gives quite some ground for speculation.

  34. Tim

    The Vector2 pedals (based on Exustar bodies) had an optional part available from Garmin to adapt the axles to Shimano Ultegra 6800 SPD-SL pedal bodies. Can you ask Garmin if this is possible or planned with their new Vector3 in-house pedal design?

  35. Mark

    Hi Mark, great pre.review :)

    1. I know it’s hard question for you due that you need carefully choose wording but anyway what will you choose Garmin Vector 3 or Power tap P1 as they lowered price to same level ?

    2. Does Garmin Vector 3 in current firmware support “Oval chainrings” or as many others just empty promises that it will be added later on (in realitty never :( ?

    3. Do you know for any EU pre-order shop for Vector 3, with perhaps any discount as on “Clevertraining” in US?

    Thank you.

    PS: will you test it also with Garmin 1000, now as you have 1030?

  36. RobHug

    The question I guess is when will Powertap P2 pedals be out….

  37. Sam S

    Ray, thanks once again for your thoughts on the new vector PM. Garmin sold a conversion kit to allow shimano pedal bodies to be used with the vector spindle. Do you know if the V3s are compatible or if Garmin are intending on releasing an updated conversion kit?

  38. Thomas

    thanks for your work. Because of my fenix 5 and stages issues I’d like to change to Assioma or Vector 3.
    You did your testing with Edge and Forerunner 935. Is there a chance that you try both powermeters with a fenix 5. I’d like to know if there are also ant+ issues, before I decide.
    And…former vector pedals had problems with temperature adaption. I think I read that Assioma has no problems with that…how about the vector pedals?

  39. Eric J Otte

    How would these hold up gravel racing?

    • John

      I’m not Ray, but in my experience I would expect the main problem with these pedals and riding gravel would be the hike-a-bike sections (i.e. road pedals aren’t terribly conducive to walking a bike through unridable muddy sections.)

    • John

      * road _cleats_ aren’t terribly conducive to walking a bike through unridable muddy sections

    • Karl Billeter

      Well, they sort of go together :-). Look/Keo pedals at least, deal pretty poorly with dirty cleats.

  40. Phil A

    P1 are actually $999.99 now, so they dropped them, would be nice if Vector could be installed with a hex wrench instead of a pedal wrench.

  41. Wayne Gibbings

    How does the stack height for these three compare?

  42. Dustin

    How do they do with temperature compensation? I do a lot of rides where the temp can easily swing 10F-20F+ degrees in an hour or two. It’s one of the reasons I have stuck with Stages. Thanks Ray!

  43. Jeffrey F.

    I currently use PowerTap P1s and I’m scared to death of powering through tight corners because I have had the bottom of both pedals hit the road. The first time it happened (the first day I used them) it was *hard* contact, causing the rest of the bike to lift up and get shoved to the side. It was a miracle that it didn’t flip me into oncoming traffic at high speed. It was a pucker moment for the books!

    After that I made sure to not pedal in tight corners, but still misjudged just how far I had to back off some months later, scraped the other side (more lightly this time).

    So, the relative pedal depth would be nice to hear about with all these new pedal-based power meters coming to market. For those of us with 175+cm cranks, it could be a matter of life and death )-:

    • Phil A

      I made that mistake of pedaling through a decent turn the other day on my P1 pedals. Freaks you out a bit when hitting the ground. I also have 175 cranks. Ground a couple corners off the bottom of the pedals.

  44. Stefan Aichholzer

    No compatible with the Edge 1000?
    According to the Garmin official site, the Edge 1000 is not on the compatible items list.

    Ray, you got any details about that?

    • Stefan Aichholzer

      Interesting, on the US website it is listed, on the other countries’ sites it is not. I assume it is compatible then. Never mind my previous comment and thank you for the great review.

      One more thing thing though; If you had to make a choice, would you take the V3 or the Favero Assima? -The price difference is quite big and they both seem to do an accurate job (according to your reviews)

  45. simon

    Any idea if Garmin will follow a loyalty-user type program and promote the Vector 3 to current Vector 2 users and do a trade-in/swap for a reduced price? It woudl certainly keep people onside to what looks like a vastly improved product for a UX point of view; no pods, no torque wrench. they have been the bain of my life since the start.

    • James

      I’m in the same camp – was an early adopter of Vector 1. Was frankly the biggest nightmare of a product from the start.

      Then in a fit of mindlessness / foolishness I bought the Vector 2 upgrade. Again, a product that was totally unfit for purpose. As you say, the bain of my life, everytime I need a few more watts I think about my Vectors and the rage duly delivers.

      Finally, on the third iteration they look like they have cracked it. But i find myself questioning my sanity that I am actually considering going down this road again, being punished by Garmin again for my naivety… Ray needs to reassure me that these things really are (finally, finally, FINALLY) the real deal?!

  46. Golan

    This is very interesting; I placed an order for favero assioma. And still waiting for delivery. Seeing the Garmin pedals, I think maybe I should cancel the assioma order and pre-order Garmin. My reason being in three years time when the rechargeable battery in the assioma is no longer charging. Getting them replaced will be a mission.

  47. rodrigo delgado

    where is the review of the assioma pedals???? im torn between the p1 and those, need to see whole review please ray. lol

  48. Three Look-compatible pedal-based power meters. I see an aero test coming. Should be interesting.

  49. Liam

    Hi Ray,

    Excellent round up, as always.
    Do you have any word on UK pricing (be it confirmed or likely)?


  50. Nick Mannerings

    Really love to upgrade my two sets of Vector 2 but I doubt it will ever be possible.
    A real shame.

  51. Russell

    Any chance of testing at higher cadences especially in the sprints up to say 130 or 140 like we would see on a velodrome

  52. Willy

    Is it possible to see cycling dynamics on a computer with an ant+ USB dongle?

  53. Audry

    Do these pedals transmit anything that the Edge 520 can’t interpret/ display?

  54. Brent

    Finally it appears as though Garmin does something right.
    I’m pretty impressed with the look of these pedals. Way nicer than the power tap stuff. BLE transmission, I didn’t see that coming! Now the 1030…I doubt its going to work very well. Pair these with the Vector 3 + Edge 520 would be a good combo.

  55. James

    Hi Ray,

    Thanks for the great summary.

    Million dollar (or at least $999.99) question – which of the Vector 3 or P1 Powertap pedals are better value at $999.99?

    I’m a (severely) burnt Vector 1 & 2 customer. Do I now have reason to believe?

  56. PeterF

    Do you think it would be technically possible to have SPD (the “mtb” variant) pedals with power? Personally I would _love_ a Vector3 or alike (easily transferable to a different bike) for SPD.

  57. Jacky Wong

    Not interested if there is no Shimano SPD PEDAL

  58. Gilbert

    Did Garmin fix the massive delayed cadence and power reporting issues? I believe the delay was about 6-12 second with a Quarq being around 2.5 to 3 seconds to report any changes on the head unit display. It was so bad that I took off the cadence and power fields from my headhunt while using the Vectors. Garmin couldn’t identify the issue and gave up.

    • I’ll be honest, I’ve never heard anyone say that before. Ever.

    • Gilbert

      Easy test. Start pedaling for 10 seconds then stop. How long does it take for each PM to report 0 on the head unit. The same situation occurred with power. The Vectors would continue to report X wattage 6-12 seconds after pedaling stopped, but the Quarq reported it within 2.5 to 3 seconds. The delay also occurs on the front and back end of the test.

    • Yeah, I put them on other units and they start reporting immediately. As did Vectors too honestly. Again, I really haven’t heard what you’re referring to. :(

    • Gilbert

      Weird. Garmin sent me two sets of complete pedals and couldn’t resolve the issue before refunding it. I was using the pedals with an Edge 510. It could have been a weird headunit compatibility issue or fixed in a later version of the Vector code. I did see a reference to improved sync time between pedals, but the problem has been fixed is the important fact.

  59. Steve

    As an Android user I hate having to somehow find an iOS device to update my P1s… that’s pretty awesome you can update these Vectors via the head unit!

  60. Harm

    Now that the pods are gone, is the Shimano SPD upgrade kit also off the table? I’d love the Vector with my Shimano pedals but the pods kept me away from the Vector. Now it seems that the pods are gone, and the Shimano upgrade kit also won’t work.

    So… waiting for Vector 4 I guess :-)

  61. Neil Jones

    Apart from the obvious physical changes, is there any software advantage to these over V2s? Are we likely to see future dynamics that are V3 only? (though I guess there’d be nothing to stop Garmin putting in an artificial restriction anyway).

    Just trying to work out if it’s worth paying the extra for the V3s over the V2s when the V2’s pods or ease of installation wouldn’t really be an issue for me.

  62. Michael

    Do you think the new Apple Watch will be able to display power/cadence data from the Vector 3 now with its addition of Bluetooth Smart?

    • Definitely not natively. However, like today I believe 3rd party apps could. I’m not sure off-hand if any 3rd party Apple Watch apps can connect to power meters today. Maybe CycleMeter?

  63. Steve

    More importantly, how does the Vector 3 power track against the Vector 2, massively important for those upgrading. I’d rather it match Vector 2 rather than being more accurate s all my historic power numbers will be out of the window

    • It’d be technically impossible to compare Vector 3 and Vector 1/2 at the same time.

      However, I’ve never really seen accuracy issues with Vector 1/2, assuming you torque-wrenched/installed properly.

  64. Daniel

    damn, i really would like this to be a shimano type as i have used for so many years and on every single bike!

  65. Christian

    Hi, first of all many thanks for your excellent reviews. They are very helpful in deciding which product to buy…
    That said I have a question regarding the powermeter pedals:
    Do you know if there are any plans of the manufacturers to bring Shimano cleats compatible pedals one the market?
    Thanks and best regards

  66. Phil

    Does anybody know if these pedal might be compatible with a Wahoo headunit? I’m loathe to buy pedals & then another Garmin just to use them!

  67. Eugene C.

    Pre-ordered via Clever Training. Hopefully these don’t develop much cartridge/body play like the Vector 2 did.

  68. Stefan Aichholzer

    I guess my other comment got lost in the flow. Let me try this again.
    Ray, unbiased; Vector 3 or Favero Assioma 2?

    • It’s really a matter of what you prefer the most – a slimmer/smaller form factor (sans-pods of the Assioma), or the price. Obviously Assioma is about $250-$300 cheaper than Vector – but with the pods. For many people, that’s a solid deal and they don’t care about the pods

      On the flipside, Vector 3 has cycling dynamics which may be of use to some.

      I don’t see accuracy concerns with either at this juncture.

    • No long term durability issues? rechargeable batteries don’t last forever and while a gps head unit may be upgraded to something much better a few years down the road when the battery wears out a power meter is still just as useful then as now, just need a new battery

    • None that I’ve seen with either.

      The rechargeable battery thing was discussed a bit recently on the Favero post. In short, given the number of charge cycles they were looking at, coupled with their warranty to top it off – just not any actual concerns there. The math for a unit like that was in the decades realm (battery-wise).

  69. Chris

    Hi Ray

    are the Vector 3 pedals compatible with edge 810 it is not listed at Garmin website as compatible? Would be nice if you could test it if you still have such an old head unit ;)

  70. Josh

    Any opinions on whether I should choose a quarq d-zero or the garmin vector 3’s?
    I like the transferability of the pedals (even though I don’t have a second bike I would want to transfer them to as my other bike is a CX bike) but I really like Shimano cleats and don’t want to go through the hassle of changing brands and refitting them. Quarq on the other hand would be much more difficult to transfer and would need the same bottom bracket on another bike or assorted spacers. Which way would you go?

  71. Gary

    Like the previous comment. I checked the website and it doesn’t list 810 on the list. I also have a element bolt which is missing too. Hope they are covered.

    • The main difference as I understand it for the 810 is the lack of dedicated/consolidated Cycling Dynamics data page on your unit (that the newer units have). This kinda explains it: link to support.garmin.com

      But you can still get that data via data fields individually, just not with some of the pretty layouts of the newer head units.

      Whereas for 3rd party head units, they don’t support Cycling Dynamics, so all the extra data points like Platform Center Offset, Seated/Standing time and so on you won’t get.

      You will get the standard fields though of: Power, Power Balance, Cadence, Torque Efficiency, Pedal Smoothness.

    • Gary

      Great. It’s the basic data I need. Thanks.

  72. James Powers

    The vector 1 &2 reliability & durability was apalling. This wasnt just because of the pods anf was excaserbated by Garmin’s appalling customer service here. It got so bad that local bike shops refused to stock them because of the hassle post sale. Clearly on a review of a new product you dont know if these issues have been resolved but it would be fair to reference them.

    • Nick

      I disagree. I have two sets of vector 2. Always reliable and robust. Any problems I’ve had Garmin have been helpful & responsive. They a quick to resolve any issues.

      I’ve had them a couple of years and they are still working well.

    • I kinda agree with Nick here.

      Everyone knows I’m not at all a Vector 1/2 fan compared to the P1’s. But if there’s a single thing I’ll give the Vector team credit for, it’s honestly support. Seriously, check out the forums or the responses of folks who have actually talked to support. Almost every instance shows the Vector team going far out of their way, way more than other Garmin groups.

      There are plenty of things to criticize Garmin on, but when it comes to Vector, support frankly isn’t one of them.

      The reason shops didn’t like Vector 1/2 as much was due to the number of SKU’s they had to stock. But ultimately, even that’s a bit misleading, because these small bike shops sold a crapton of Vector units, given how they rocketed towards the top of the Kona bike count. There was also the issue of shops not knowing how to install Vector with a torque wrench. Seriously, shops were worse than end-consumers here. To the point that Garmin originally put out notices to shops on how to install Vectors. You can see this in the comments of my initial Vector review where numerous LBS’s would incorrectly install Vector.

      In any case, all that’s sorta old news these days.

  73. Carson

    Hey do you know if the release of version 3 will decrease the price of version 2? I’m thinking of buying vector pedals, wondering if I should wait til this decreases the price of vector 2 pedals

  74. carsten

    With the Vectors the crank length is set in the bike computer like an Edge 520.
    Once set, are the Vector 3s then broadcasting the right power values to other head units, where you can’t set the crank length, e.g. Ambit2? Or will the Edge doing the math only internally and don’t store this setting at the power unit itself?
    For this scenario the Assiomas got an app to set the crank length for head units who lacks this setting.

  75. Lee Gilchrist

    Hi Ray,

    So the big question. Vector 3 Vs Favero Assioma?

    What would you buy for cost Vs performance?

    Thanks Lee

    • Simply put for cost, i’d go Assioma.

      For performance, if you find value in the Vector 3 Cycling Dynamics data, then obviously that’s the better bet. But in terms of accuracy, I consider both a wash.

      I’m working on a post for a few days from now outlining all three options more deeply.

    • Lee Gilchrist

      I currently have a Edge 810 and have on order a Hammerhead Karoo. From what I have read above I am screwed on Cycling Dynamics on both counts :-)

  76. Flexx

    I have an edge 500, are the Vector 3 pedals compatible and what data can I expect to receive?

    • You won’t get Cycling Dynamics, but you’ll get total power, cadence, left/right power, and off-hand I’m pretty sure also Torque Efficiency and Pedal Smoothness. It’s been a while since I’ve loaded one up and can’t quite remember when those metrics were added.

  77. Chris Dyason

    Looks like the revamped Vector 3 is very appealing. I wounder if the Shimano adaptor for Vector 2 would be compatible for Vector 3 or would another one come out?

  78. Jo

    Hello Ray,

    I absolutely love your power meter reviews.
    On http://www.fiets.nl
    I found al link to a power meter accuracy test performed by:
    International Journal of Sports Medicine.
    link to thieme-connect.de
    “…the mean deviations of the power meters were –0.9±3.2% (mean±SD) with 6 power meters deviating by more than±5%…”
    Have you read this study? Could you comment on it?

    • Super short version:

      Interesting attempt at things – and overall the right direction. But they didn’t maintain ownership of the units (kinda loaners), and didn’t track the models. So they’re all grouped together in many cases and we don’t know if it’s a Power2Max original (7 years old), or one from last year. Nor were they all static checked to ensure they were valid (meaning, since not owned, we don’t know condition).

      I talked to the team a little bit, and it’s interesting work – but I think the above variables definitely impacted their study a bit. I like the structure overall, I just would want to see it performed on ‘known good’ units (meaning, not something sitting on someone’s bike unmaintained for 7 years).

    • Sitting unmaintained for a few years in some way is a good test in that people will keep using their power meters for awhile so would be good to know if they stay reliable. None of these should really need maintenance to still work right.

      This ignores the consistency between units being important (one brand is new units, another is old) and older units not on the market any more may not be as good as new units currently being sold as the company learned their lesson on what didn’t work like the first gen quarks.

    • I’m more concerned about people donating/loaning units that were tossed aside for unknown reasons.

      While I think it’s certainly an interesting study to see how things age, that’s a very different question to blindly comparing a 7 year old unit to a brand new one and not knowing which is which. Or comparing a unit 4 generations older to one that takes lessons learned from it, but groups them all as one brand.

      After all, people aren’t going out and buying 5-7 year old power meters.

  79. Klaus

    Does the Vector 3 has a temperature compensation?
    Thanks for a short reply.

  80. Neuron1

    DC great write up, as always. Can you explain why these will not work with oval rings? You had me drooling until I read the comments. Through discussions with the crank based systems folks, despite the fact that they don’t advertise it, their systems will provide data using Osymetric or Rotor non-round rings. Having just watched Chris Froome stare at his power meter for the last 21 days, while he pedals Osymetrics, there must be some hope for us squished oval folks.

    Thanks in advance, from a devoted Osymetric lover.

    • Nope, almost no power meters properly support non-round rings, not even Stages that Froome uses.

      About the only power meters that do properly support it are:

      ROTOR 2INPower/INPower
      PowerTap P1 Pedals
      PowerTap G3/related hubs

      WatTeam and Power2Max claim to support it, but I’ve never seen any evidence they do, I believe they misunderstand it. Others like SRM, Quarq, etc.. .don’t support them.

      In short, it’s variable based on cadence, and so unless a power meter takes that cadence variability as it’s factored into angular velocity into account (and most don’t), it won’t be accurate.

    • AliP

      Thanks Ray – I’m not sure if that’s on your comparison tool, but it’s made my decision on what meter to upgrade to a whole lot easier. I wanted one that I can use across bikes, and for race days, so it looks like it’s the P1 pedals for me.

  81. Vince Rodriguez

    Great review! I would have liked to heard about more about integration with other head units. The Wahoo Elemnt family appears to have data points similar to the cycling dynamics presented on the Garmin. Are there any significant differences in using a non-Garmin head unit?

  82. Mika


    Just wondering is there a possibility to connect these Vector3 units simultaniously to 2 different units like Edge 520 + Fenix 5(X)? Reason for this would be that Fenix 5 contain all the training information but Edge 520 would be beneficial during the ride and able to provide more detailed information about cycling.

    I have understood that this would be the easiest way to cover this as you cannot combine ine training in 2 ynits in other way.

    Br Mika

  83. paolo

    Great review! I’m about to buy a power meter for my road bike and deciding between Stages Super Record crank meter versus the Garmin Vector 3 which comes out to about the same price. Which would you recommend?

    • With the Super Record, that’s a left-only solution (Stages LR is their dual solution). Whereas Garmin Vector 3 is a dual leg solution. As a general rule of thumb I don’t prefer left-only solutions.

  84. Thomas

    Hi Ray
    As always – great review. On one of the pictures, dcs 0991, I think it shows sensor details for V3, one can see “Auto Zero” is set to off. Did Garmin just introduce auto zero offset fit the V3 there?

  85. Gautier

    I’m looking to get a powermeter on my bike but don’t have the 1000+ euros to put into it.
    What are the limitations of the Vector 3S compared to the 3? and is an upgrade possible later on?

    Thanks for your in deepth reviews (even if I’m more looking at your videos ;-) )

    Cheers from Paris (still haven’t bump into you yet even if I running along the river too quite often… )

  86. Stino

    I would have been interested in a further elaboration on: ” So why might you not want to use Bluetooth Smart with Vector 3? Well mainly you’ll get less metrics.” My intrest would be to use the Vector 3 in combination with the V800. Brand compatibility is an intresting test case as well, imo.

    • It’s mostly because there are less metrics on the Bluetooth Smart power meter standard. Not to mention there’s no Cycling Dynamics either on Polar. Said differently, it’s mostly just a lack of maturity on the BT power meter profile standard compared to the ANT+ one at this point. Of course, the ANT+ one has had a huge multi-year head start.

      As part of my in-depth review, I’ll likely touch on it a bit for 3rd party compatibility over BLE.

    • Stino

      Thanks. I haven’t found a list of supported metrics with either standard. Looking forward to the indepth review!