Hands-on with Epson’s new Pulsesense optical heart rate activity trackers

While no doubt everyone associates Epson with printers, the company was at Outdoor Retailer and there was clearly no printer in sight.  Instead the team of very fit looking engineers was demonstrating the first two fitness devices they’re bringing to market, the Pulsense PS-100 and PS-500.  Both of these units contain Epson’s in-house developed optical sensor for measuring heart rate via your wrist.  And aside from a screen, both units are basically identical functionality-wise.

I was lucky enough to get to take the units back to the hotel for the night and spend about 15 quality hours with them, including a test run.  Here’s a first look at how they work and the functionality they bring to the marketplace.

PS-500 Activity Monitor with Optical HR Sensor:


First up is Epson’s display-capable unit, the PS-500.  This unit (seen above) includes a small screen that shows your activity over the course of the day, as well as a bunch of metrics during a workout as part of a separate mode.

During the day you’ll be able to track data like most other activity trackers, including steps, sleep, distance, calories as well as time of day.  All this information is available directly on the device itself, but is further sync’d to their app.

IMG_0123 IMG_0124 IMG_0125

Of course, the most differentiating aspect of the PS-500 (and PS-100) is the inclusion of the optical heart rate sensor on the back of the unit.  Very few activity trackers have this these days.  The first was Basis and their B1, and the second is the Mio Fuse that was announced last week.  I personally don’t really count the Samsung variants, since they don’t really work.

The optical sensor in the Epson is a tiny bit different than those other company’s optical sensors.  First, it’s built by Epson (not licensed from anyone).  And second, it has a much longer battery life at 40hrs of optical-on (albeit transmitting every 5-seconds).  The Epson engineers explained they’re able to get a much longer battery life than most other sensors on the market due to the company’s manufacturing and chipset experience learned in other areas (read: printers).  Meaning that because they own the entire chain from design to manufacture they have more flexibility to design to their specs.  Of course, there’s also the reality that when you’re a larger company you can afford to make bigger technology bets than smaller companies.


During my time with the unit I went out for a 5K run (3-miles).  The unit was easy to start in terms of beginning an activity.  My heart rate showed up in just a few seconds on the screen.  Below the heart rate you’ll see five little squares, these are my zones.  In this photo, I’m below any of the specified zones so they aren’t filled up yet.


Once I was running it showed me my heart rate as well as distance and time.  Most interesting though was actually the LED lights on the front.  Given I was running without any shade in some rather bright sun I was very impressed with how bright the LED’s were.  Some units these days offer more faint lights – but this was an all-out spotlight.

Below you can see my heart rate (mid-run) at 149bpm, and the LED lights below that.  Sorry it’s a bit fuzzy, I neglected to remember to charge the camera battery I was running with – so only got about 3 shots before it ran out of juice.  And this is one of those award winning shots.


Interestingly, Epson told me the next day that they found in testing some people didn’t quite like the super-bright lights in certain work settings (yoga), so they offer the option to simply turn them on-demand briefly via a quick tap (which was how the PS-100 was configured for me).


Like most activity trackers these days I found the distance accuracy while running so-so.  On my 3.15 mile journey (measured by multiple GPS devices), it clocked 2.4 miles.  Again, this is what I see for most other devices in this market as well.


In addition to showing the steps/distance/heart rate, they also show time in zone – for each of the zones you’ve established.  This is shown live on the display.

In the below case you see a super-low zone (because I’m just standing there taking a photo at 66BPM), but it’s showing I’ve spent 2 minutes in that zone.  It’ll change to show me the correct zone info depending on which zone I’m in.


Now unlike other activity trackers the unit actually will have an SDK (Software Development Kit) to interface directly to it from apps.  This is in addition to a website API (Application Programming Interface) to access data within the Epson cloud platform.  This is great for consumers as it could potentially ensure there aren’t data islanding issues (when a company basically holds your data hostage).

The PS-500 is planned to be available on October 1st, for $199US and will be sold both on Epson.com as well as various sport-specific retailers (i.e. running shops and sporting goods stores).  Apps will be available for both Android and iOS.  Note that in non-heart rate enabled mode the unit will get 5 days of battery life (with the optical sensor on, it’s 40 hours).

PS-100 Optical HR Sensor Band:


Next up we’ve got the PS-100, which is under the covers identical to that of its bigger brother the PS-500.  The core difference though as you can see is the lack of display.  Otherwise, it’ll track all the same metrics in terms of activity and workouts.

In order to start a workout you just tap it a specific number of times, which enables that mode (same for stopping the workout mode).  Once in this workout mode it’ll then turn on the optical heart rate sensor on the back of the unit:


During an activity, you can use the light bar on the front to view your heart rate zone status.  Assuming you’ve pre-configured this prior to the run/bike/gym workout you’ll then get a simple band indicating your heart rate relative to zone.


Additionally, behind the scenes the band is also tracking your distance and pace during the workout which are uploaded to the app afterwards.

During my run with the unit I found the placement on the zone correlated quite well to my rough perceived effort.  I didn’t have a way to double-check the exact values for this unit afterwards on a chart, so I won’t be able to say for certain.  But what I find with most other optical devices is that when it’s off, it’s rarely off by just a few BPM (beats per minute), rather, off by vast amounts (i.e. 60BPM).  This is because when most units have issues it’s either picking up the run cadence (noise) or has just lost track entirely.  So given I never saw it that far out of whack with respect to the light bar, I think that’s a good sign.

Now – what’s cool here is that both the PS-100 and the PS-500 models allow for re-broadcasting of your heart rate.  This means that you can connect to it via Bluetooth Smart from any capable BLE device – such as your phone.  Here’s me pairing it with the standard Wahoo Fitness app:


And now you can see the heart rate displayed within the app (72bpm, in the middle of the page).  Pretty cool.


This is perfect for those cyclists that want an activity tracker but also want to be able to track heart rate with a different device.  Of course, cycling head units with Bluetooth Smart support are only just beginning to hit the market – but this definitely gives you some options.

The PS-100 is scheduled to be available on October 1st (just like the PS-500), with a price of $129US.  It uses the same apps for iOS and Android, and will be available in the same sports-focused places.  It has similar battery performance of 40 hours with optical on, and 5 days of regular activity tracking.  And, like the PS-500 it also has an API & SDK for accessing its data/device for developers.

Note that both units can store 480 hours of activity data before needing to sync.

Overall, I’m really interested to see what accuracy on both these units looks like longer term (in testing).  Still, given they were willing to part with them for the night and let me do anything I wanted is a good sign.

Now while I like the technology behind both units and the amount of stuff they’ve packed in there, I’m not quite as jazzed about the look of them.  They just aren’t as sleek looking at other units on the market.  But, it’s what’s on the inside that counts.  That’s what they say, right?

For me personally, I actually think the smaller of the two is more interesting since it rebroadcasts your heart rate in a smaller package while also being a daily activity monitor.  Of course, that also makes it pretty similar in functionality to the new Mio Fuse units.

As one can see – it’s definitely a busy time in the optical sensor world.

Thanks for reading!


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  1. Steve

    Do they have any plans to release an ANT+ unit in the future?

    • It was something they were definitely curious about. We chatted about the benefits of using the dual chipset that many companies are doing these days (i.e. Mio, Wahoo, Scosche, etc…). But nothing concrete at this time.

    • tudor

      no ant+, not interested :(. otherwise the band looks good. still hoping for the iiiiiiiiiiii pods to be released…

    • Ashley Willmott

      Can you recommend an activity tracker or smart watch that can measure health markers for 30-40 days? We have rowers crossing the Atlantic and need to collate some data. Thanks in advance

  2. Mark

    I’d hope the accuracy is pretty good. Epson has a lot of in house talent with light manipulation and imaging. Not only do they play with lasers in printers, but they make nice scanners and projectors too.
    While the cross over with projectors might not be too much, I’d imagine decades of knowledge in scanning translate well into optical HR scanning.

  3. Maxx

    Its interesting that its come from Epson. I guessing its a tentative step as a sort of market experiment.

    Perhaps in the longer term, if these prove successful at market adoption, we may see its eventual evolution to be a full fledged sports watch, but with the branding of its watch division instead ?

    A Seiko.

    Imagine a Seiko MarineMaster 300 with full fledged health/activity monitoring capabilities! 🙂

  4. Lars

    Since there BLE (cycling) units are still rare and not everyone is willing to buy a new smartphone every two years, I don’t understand why nobody is offering a BLE-to-ANT+-bridge… (yes, I’m looking at you, 4iiii!)

  5. Sean

    The LEDs for HR zone are probably the coolest part, IMO. Super easy to see where you’re at – could be a cool feature incorporated into more full-feature devices.

  6. Daniel Churco

    ANT+ is a need for me. I would get one if it was dual broadcast.

    Very interesting to see all these other companies getting into the market though. Should mean that someone will come up with what I want.

  7. Marvin

    Thabk you for the review Ray!
    Could the PS-500 work in the pool? If it is waterproof it might be a good HR recording solution, no chest strap that slips down and no wireless communication needed during swimming, only to sync afterwards. If that works I think it would be totally cool in the pool, despite its not so very cool looks.

  8. miguel zuza arano

    Its great to have another manufacturer.

    Ray, is this one able to get HRV data? will it be possible someday or it won´t cause the technology is incompatible with that?

    • miguel zuza arano

      Another question..

      would you say it measure better? I heard about problems like having to put the band too tight with other manufacturers

  9. Ricardo

    I wonder if you can wear one of this in one hand and a Suunto Ambit3 in the other getting the data…

    I heard from somebody you have to wear in the same arm Mio/Sosche transmitter to work properly synced with your watch.

    Somebody knows something about?

  10. Mike Richie

    I think this is more interesting from the HR technology stand point. Given the low power usage, if the accuracy holds up for both resting and activity heart rates this might really move things forward. I wonder if they are interested in licensing to other watch manufacturers (I’m looking at you Garmin).

    Ray, a few questions, if you know the answer: Is the watch waterproof (and therefore the HR sensor)?
    Is the 5 second recording rate settable (either in the watch or in the sensor)? If not, how important do you think getting higher resolution HR data is for training?
    How does the watch sync and/or charge? Given it’s sleep capabilities, is there a way to charge it while wearing it?
    Will it allow you to sync to other BT devices like a foot pod? I gather it doesn’t at release, but just wondering if it is capable of doing that. And speaking of that, do they expect to add any future capabilities through firmware updates?
    BTW, thanks again for attending these events for your readers/fans!

    • Garmin use Suunto HR technology as it is more accurate.

    • They don’t. They license it from FirstBeat – albeit also a Finnish company, not the same company. Also, it’s actually not licensed for all products, just some (mostly those above $200US).

      As for Mike’s question on waterproofing and a few others here, I’m rounding those up to check with them.

      At present the app doesn’t sync with footpod, though the Wahoo Fitness app would and would also sync with a footpod – so that’s one option.

  11. Diplo

    I noticed on the back of the watch it says “Seiko-Epson Corp.” as in the Japanese watch maker. I didn’t know the companies were in business together, but that explains why Epson would make a watch. Seiko makes affordable but good watches, so hopefully that would transfer to the activity watch and band. I’ll be eager to read your full review in a few months.

    • Henry

      Seiko is the mother company of Epson. Seiko-Epson is the manufacturing arm and Epson is the marketing arm. The naming and relationship of them sometimes are quite confusing.

  12. JimL

    Agreed on looks. It needs ANT+. Dual broadcast would be great. That’s why I picked a Stages.

  13. Gunnar

    Phone notifications would be great. Any plans for for this?

  14. Roland

    Hi Ray, and thanks for the great review again.
    Does this watch record HR in the water (for swimming)? I’m pissed with the HR strap slipping down at each turn.


  15. morey000

    OK. Activity tracker with built in HR monitor that you can use for exercise. Or- Mio’s with an activity tracker built in. Nice.

    Question 1: You indicate that it saves activity data of 480hrs. Does that include HR data?
    Question 2: The sleep tracker has two colors, as well as a vertical scale. Normally, the higher the number on the scale, the more ‘active’ and less restful sleep is. However, in the plot shown, the colors don’t match the ‘height’ of the graph. Is it monitoring HR as well as movement to create a composite sleep metric?

  16. Robert Black

    With Seiko-Epson’s pedigree I’d have no qualms about buying a first gen product from them, but no ant+ is a deal breaker for me at least

  17. Happy runner

    Granted rebroadcasting has potential, but doesn’t the five second transmission rate make this unsuitable for athletes?

    Did you get a sense that this technology is superior to that used my Mio (which was an epic fail, RMA for me)

    • I’m undecided on the 5-second piece. On one hand, it’s not as ideal as every second, but on the other hand heart rate is a lagged metric anyway. Meaning, it’s not like speed or power that’s instant. It takes the body time to react to a change. Thus the very reason if you start from the blocks and run hard, you’re HR won’t catchup in 2-3 seconds, let alone five seconds.

      As for being superior to Mio, that depends. I actually don’t see any issues with the sensor itself in Mio (the vast majority don’t, and for those that did on the Link they made a tweak that seemed to fix it for their beta group). Mio’s issue, specifically with the Link, is/was more transmission issues – which looking at those having issues impacted far more people.

    • Mike Richie

      IIRC, wasn’t there also an issue with the Mio not working as well on low (i.e., resting) heart rates. So not as good for something like a sleep tracker (unlike the Basis). Maybe the Epson will be good for both. I read somewhere (maybe a link from here), that the Basis provided results as accurate as fancy sleep studies. It would be great to have something that could do both accurately.

    • Gary B

      Don’t forget that the Basis also measures skin temperature and perspiration so I suspect but don’t know for sue that is what allows it to do the advanced sleep analytics.

      I’ve spent some time looking at my sleep patterns with the basis and comparing to the other metrics, it’s hard to do because the present the info on 2 different screens but from what I can see the skin temperature changes quite a bit once asleep.

    • The only trick with the Basis is it won’t measure HR accurately during any sort of fitness activity. :-/

  18. NR

    Hi Ray
    Thanks for the head up.
    Few questions regarding PS100:
    1) I presume it measure distance with accelerometer, so is it possible to calibrate step length. I mean if this is measuring 2.4 mile for a distance of 3.15 mile, can you change the stride length so next time distance is more accurate ?
    2) I feel the unit should be atleast 30 mtr water-proof to be an effective all weather fitness tracker. Any idea about same ?
    3) Is there any windows phone application which can display heartrate from the unit ?
    4) Is it possible to edit type of activity later in the web application e.g, yoga or weight training ?
    5) Is sleep detection automatic or need to be start manually ?

    Also one query about a non related issue :
    Due to my work I stay out of internet coverage area for couple of moths at a stretch. Can you suggest me some offline windows desktop applications for transferring data from Garmin 310XT and later uploading them online, both free and paid.

    Thanks again

    • 1) Not sure on calibration – I’ll try and find out.
      2) I’m actually not as concerned about that to be honest. It comes down to whether or not you’re swimming with it. If not (and since it doesn’t really track anything there), then it’s mostly just protection against showering and rain – no reason for 30M waterproofing for that.
      3) The Adidas app should, it’s your best bet on Windows Phone.
      4) Too early to tell there.
      5) Manual.

      For the FR310XT, check out Sports Tracks (by Zone Five Software) – definitely your best bet.

  19. Alex

    any word on vibration alarm??

  20. sal

    What about the Epson’s GPS Running Watch with integrated HR-sensor; the Runsense SF-810 ? Did you test it too?
    –> link to epson.de

  21. San San

    Guys, i want to measure my entire daily activity (calories), sports, sleep and normal activity. Using a chest band for this is not a good solution as it will mess during sleep when i’m turning during sleep.

    Is there a watch that measures the calories burned in both normal activity and sports?

  22. Hi All-

    I have indeed gone for a run with the GPS watch, and should have some thoughts up in the next few days. I used it the same day as the other products seen above. Impressed with accuracy.


    • skarthe

      Hi Ray,

      can we expect some thoughts about the new runsense series /310/510/710/810)? Maybe even a review?

      Thanks in advance,

    • Sal

      I’m very curious about your thoughts on the GPS watch (810)
      Strangely there aren’t any reviews on the net yet… nobody talks about this watch.. and Epson published it only on the German website…
      Secrets.. and mystery.. 🙂

    • Honestly, the reason for the lack of information is that Epson made life difficult for media. They had multiple different embargo’s which were for different countries on different dates but all for the same product.

      That ultimately annoys media though because then you’re operating on ‘leftovers’. In my case, I actually had the problem back in early August, but there was the whole embargo confusion plus confusion on different model numbers. For me, I just didn’t have time to deal with that fiasco in the middle of Eurobike+Interbike weeks since there was so little clear information. :-/

    • Sal

      Thank you for your reply

    • Martin

      Any updates on when you will post something about the runsense?
      And which of the Runsense did you try, the 710 or 810?

      I have been considering buying it, but I can’t get myself to buy a watch before I have read your review…

  23. James Ditchfield

    does it need and can it charged daily

  24. RS

    Do you know if it uses the HR function in the calculation of calories burned throughout the day? Also, what does it do with the sleep function? Is it automatic and does it incorporate HR? I wonder how this one compares to the Jaybird Reign soon to come out?

    • Meow

      I would like to know too. With continuous HR monitoring, it would seem to make sense for it to use HR in calculation. Failing that, does anyone know any app that take a heart rate reading and calculate calories expenditure?

      Also, anyone have news of the actual shipment?

    • Nez

      Yes it calculates calories burned from HR data. They are displayed as “active” calories and your calculated basal metabolic rate as “inactive” calories.

      They have automatic and semi-automatic sleep detection. For semi-automatic you enter the time you usually go to bed and wake up online/ in the app, I think that just gives the software some idea of what your sleep parameters should be. Sleep detection is a combination of heart rate and motion.

      Honestly I’m not thrilled by the Pulsense online app, or the limited device support for the phone apps. You can not log type of exercise or log any exercise that you did while not wearing the band (ie swimming). I’ve heard that it occasionally looses the connection in the middle of a bluetooth sync and looses all the data. Personally, I plan to only transfer data via cable to my computer so it can charge at the same time (needs something like 8 hours to completely charge from empty- I’m hoping ~ 1.5 hours a day is enough).

    • RS

      Still trying to decide between buying this one, waiting for the Jaybird Reign, the new Fitbit, or a Vivosmart. Does anyone have any more insight on this one or the upcoming Reign?

  25. Dirk Boon

    Hi Ray,

    I’m desperately seeking to ged rid of a cheststrap HRM and have been reading your reviews and user comments for a while. Great work, by the way ! But especially the latest user comments on the Scosche RHYTHM+ have made me even more desperate … a lot of issues from users while your review was so positive ?
    The only thing I want is a perfectly reliable HRM sensor around wrist or arm, that works without hickup’s or blackouts in both measuring & transmitting (on BLE). For the rest, my requirements are not so tough .
    Price doesn’t matter.
    Display (with or without), doesn’t matter (I use RUN.GPS on my HTC One)
    Battery life of 4 hrs is already enough for me since I only do short mountainbike trips and some 2-3hrs running.
    Looks, i don’t care how good or sleek it looks either.
    No, it’s very simple, I only want reliable HRM without a cheststrap.
    I’ve looked at Scosche RHYTHM+, MIO Link, Epson Pulsesense Series, Tomtom Cardio series but either there are not sufficient user reviews(Tomtom & Epson) or too many users reported negative experiences (Scosche & Mio).
    I really don’t know what to choose and my only plan now is to wait it out untill more (positive) users reports are posted for a specific device.
    Admitted, I’m sceptic, but my past experience is that all too often I have purchased items that don’t deliver as advertised.
    So, Ray, which device would you recommend for me at this point in time ?
    Thanks a lot,

    • I think if you look at the number of users on the Scosche without issue (massive, knowing the numbers), versus those posting problems, it’s a itty bitty very low single-digit minority. Also, some of those having problems have to do with a specific watch (The Suunto Ambit3, because Suunto does some wonky stuff there).

      I’d still recommend the Scosche + some recording device, then the TomTom Cardio. Keep in mind that anytime you get into the optical sensor range it’s going to vary by person, and you may need to try a few different places on your body. That’s what’s great about the Scosche – there’s a TON of places you can put it to keep trying if your body type doesn’t agree initially. Whereas with the Link/TomTom it’s basically just 2-3 variations around your wrist.

    • Dirk Boon

      Thanks for the reply, Ray. I will give the Scosche a try then.

    • Dirk Boon

      Hi Ray,

      This post should be in the Scosche section, but anyways … Just wanted to follow-up and say that I’m really happy with my Scosche Rhythm + as you recommended. So far it delivers as advertised.
      Thanks again,

  26. riz

    Hi DC, thank you for the write-up. I do have a question for you, you said both unitw can re-broadcast info to apps. So my question is, if I buy the band, can the epson app be used in real-time to monitor steps, heart-rate etc? (since the band has no display) and bonus q, would a smartwatch like the moto 360 be able to somehow show real-time info from the band to the moto (conceivably in the future? just asking for speculation) I am leaning towards the band because the watch is certainly not a looker but real-time monitoring is a must imo


  27. deshy

    Anyone know about the status of the SDK/API? Trying to get a human voice at Epson to find out more but can’t get anyone who even knows that they make an activity tracker. They all keep referring me to the printer department!

    And I’ve filled out the online form but no response.


  28. jmkcc

    Will this work with new Windows Phones? Will it synch with WP and can you use different apps? I’m new to this and getting this as a gift for someone.

  29. Kevin Scott

    Have you had any further chance to test these Epson products? Still looking for an all in one activity monitor with its own heart rate monitor. Was disappointed with the Basis as the HRM didn’t work during exercise. The the Bluetooth link between a polar loop and a moo alpha meant it heart rate would drop off. Or would it be worth just waiting on basis peak or fitbit charge hr/surge? When ever they are released in the UK….

  30. Markus

    I´ve bought as Epson Runsense 710 two days ago. I´ve only had the chance to run with the watch once so far.
    Good quality, quite nice design, fits great for tiny wrists, Data measured seems to be quite reasonable. Lack of export functionalities from the portal. Great Battery Life.

  31. I too am looking for a activity tracker with built in heart rate that functions well as a watch also. I would like a stopwatch function. API or IFTTT integration too.
    I don’t know if anything fits the bill.

  32. Luis

    Hi any updates from Epson
    Feeling a little cheated by pulsense 500. Haven’t had any deep sleep for over a month? Smart alarm not working. Minimal access to my data. Android compatibility with only 4 handsets. Randomly stops measuring pulse. Not convinced resting heart rate is at all accurate, however have only vague indications of my data so cannot test. Fat burning zone had never changed even though I’ve been using it for 2 months and the blurb days it will take time to analyse my resting heart rate and update fat burning zone.

    • Shannon Jacobs

      Related to my own reaction to the wristband version, though it is reporting some deep sleep. My main curiosity right now is where all the data is going, but it seems like a silly toy and I think I wasted my money. There are several warnings “This is not a medical device.”. Okay, then. What is it?

    • Devices that are medical devices go through certifications that take years. On the flip side, it means that they can be used for life-threatening conditions as required. This is not. It’s not a toy, it’s just not medically certified. No common activity tracker is. It’s not worth it to any of the companies (be it Garmin, Fitbit, or even Apple) to do so. The costs are massive, and the upside is non-existent.

    • Shannon Jacobs

      I guess I would say that they need to clarify exactly what it is, but I suppose the lawyers would make that impossible. Something along the lines of:

      “This device collects data about your physiological activities, but with limited accuracy. This means it should not be regarded as a medical device providing reliable data upon which diagnoses or treatment options can be based, but it can be considered with suitable caution as an indicator of the utility of or necessity for more precise medical tests.”

      Or perhaps more fuzzily “Some doctors will consider this data.”

  33. Kai

    I have the PS-100 and I worked out at a high intensity for about an hour to wear 3 or 4 and sometimes 5 of the lights were lit up at all times. However, it said I only was in my high intensity for 16 minutes and didn’t equal the amount of calories I usually burn. I didn’t know about tapping the device to turn on workout mode? Do i need to do that all the time and should it vibrate when its in effect?

  34. Paul James

    Hi DC,

    In your opinion which would you choose: the Mio Fuse or the Epson PS-100?


  35. Manish

    If I’m not wrong, the Fitbit Surge and Epson SF-810 are the only two devices that offer Continuous HR, Activity and Sleep monitoring and GPS for running. Kinda All-in-Ones…..Are you planning to add a review of the S-810 so we can compare with the Surge?

  36. Shannon Jacobs

    At this point I’ve had the PS-100 for several weeks. It seems to be operating normally–to NO effect. What does the data mean and where is it going? Epson has also, but perhaps predictably, been completely unhelpful. I’m leaning towards the theory that it’s some sort of toy, but I’d love for someone to explain otherwise…

  37. Kamol

    Been using the ps500 for 2 weeks.
    The app is really useless for android , so I look up the summary on PC view instead.

    Just wonder whether the heart rate can also be shown graphically during the workout / day.

    the distance is a bit off i think ( 5-10% ) , mostly less than actual .

    just my 2 cents.