Nov. 9
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In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5518_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5521_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5526_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5528_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5535_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5537_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5548_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5549_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5550_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5559_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
Nov. 9
IMG_5560_thumb.jpg

In the Queue: Elite Turbo Muin Unboxing

Last week I got the Elite Turbo Muin all unboxed and a brief test ride on it to gather some audio data.  You can find that video with the decibel meter here.  The unit transmits private-ANT to the Elite iPad app, which displays power, speed, and cadence.

November 9. 2013QueueComments (131)
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131 Comments

  1. Matt

    wow, that thing is a beast! looks more like a power-tool than a trainer.

    Reply
  2. Mathew

    Hello Ray,

    what are your plans for the release date of the review?

    'looking forward to it.

    Reply
  3. Kim

    Man I look forward to this test. Best thing in the trainer department for years I think. No tyre slip and silent.

    Reply
  4. Well I showed this to my wife & still didn't think it was that silent..... I guess I will have to do some big gear, slow cadence work....

    Is it one of those that once you have it set up you wouldn't want to move it? I am trying to figure out if this is something that can be popped in a cardboard and brought out every evening or if it's likely to become a permanent piece of furniture over winter.

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      No, it's not quite as silence as it sounds on a busy trade show floor - hence my skepticism there a bit.

      As for moving it, you can certainly move it. But I think you'll find that (and true of any trainer), that gets old pretty quick.

      Reply
    • Kim replied

      But - my unscientific comparison of your trainer videos shows a significant noise reduction because of the elimination of the tyre squeal at least. So I would guess i'ts a matter of choosing a quiet casette, low gear and high watt resistance?

      Reply
    • Mathew replied

      Mhhh, 10 dB less than Kickr and Computrainer. That's app. half of the noise. Still not silent, but far better compared to the other trainers in your former video.

      Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Remember, the Muin doesn't control your resistance. It just shows your power. To control your resistance you have to change gears (it's a fluid trainer).

      Reply
  5. Alan Hall

    Nice bike. (Same as mine)
    I have an Elite Muin ordered and being delivered to me this weekend.
    I can't wait.

    Reply
    • Mathew replied

      Please let us know what your impression is regarding the noise level.

      Reply
  6. Pedro

    Seems pretty quiet to me. Maybe i'm seeing it wrongly but the noise of your shoe clicking in your pedal is not much different than the noise of the trainer in operation. Anyway, equally important to me, how was the feel? It looks like you are pedalling pretty smoothly on it...anyway, i've ordered one and hopefully will get it soon

    Reply
  7. Pedro

    Seems quiet to me. Maybe i'm seeing it wrongly but the noise of your shoe clicking in your pedal is not much different than the noise of the trainer in operation. Anyway, equally important to me, how was the feel? It looks like you are pedalling pretty smoothly on it...anyway, i've ordered one and hopefully will get it soon

    Reply
  8. Nico

    Hi,
    do you think that would be an interesting trainer if we already have a crank-based powermeter (probably more accurate than their system) ? Do you see any objections to that ?
    I am looking for a trainer that is very quiet and the fact you don't have to use a wheel make it even better than the usual trainer (no tire slipping). And much better than a "Kettler Ergo race"-like bike since you can use your own Garmin (or any other ANT+ bike computer that works with your powermeter).
    Do you think they will release a version without electronics for those who don't need it or already have a powermeter (like me) ?
    It's price (430euros in France) is pretty low considering a basic Home trainer (without electronics) is 150euros.

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      If you've already got a PM, then a portion of the value of the Muin isn't going to pan out for you.

      So then it comes down to whether or not you find the quiet aspect quiet-enough for you. I don't expect them to produce a version without the electronics, because really, the electronics are simply just an ANT+ speed sensor, which has a near-negligible wholesale cost for them.

      Reply
  9. Nico! Where in France did you find that price?

    Reply
    • Nico replied

      BIKEINN. But I didn't look further. Now it seems pretty cheap compared to other shops. And "sur commande (disponibilité inconnue)", so not in stock.

      Reply
  10. OK, I ordered from Bikespeed.Ch. Paid 600CHF for it. Pretty similar price to BikeINN once I take into account postage & swiss import duty & charges.

    Thanks for getting back!

    Reply
  11. Patrick

    Hallo,
    I'm really looking forward for you review. It seems top for a system not controlling resistance. The ANT+ connectivity is what I dislike. I'd rather like to connect it to my power2max to have full (and correct) information about my wattage than having it calculated in someway.
    br and thanks in advance for your review!
    P.

    Reply
  12. Stefan

    Hi Ray,

    really looking forward to your review as I plan to get this as my first ever trainer -- max. silence is what I'm mainly looking for. What I don't get is where does the cassette come from? If I get the unboxing pictures right there is no cassette contained, when I compare this to Wahoo Kickr there is one in there. Do I have to buy a separate cassette for this, or how did you get it running?

    Thanks,
    Stefan

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      It didn't include one. I happened to have one in my closet actually, which I was pretty excited about.

      My understanding was that they were producing two variants - one with, and one without.

      Do keep in mind that the KICKR and this shouldn't really be compared. They're totally different in functionality. The KICKR can control the resistance, this cannot. That's just sorta the beginning there.

      Reply
    • Monica replied

      The product is supplied with a freehub (shimano 9,10,11 speed compatible) while for the campags you need to buy seperately the compatible hub.

      Cassette is not included.

      And price point is substantially different (lower) than KICKR.

      And Turbo Muin is compatible with the new myETraining app.
      link to itunes.apple.com

      Tks
      Monica

      Reply
    • 6co replied

      Ray, I understand that if we would want to compare like for like with the Wahoo Kickr, it is not really the Elite Muin that fits the bill, but rather the Elite REAL series, ilke the REAL-AXIOM or REAL E-MOTION
      These are really high end. Do you think you wil be looking at those? According to their website, those are really out of this world!

      thx
      6co

      Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      I may. My general concern at this point is any high-end trainer that I'd want to spend money on needs to be open, or commit to being open.

      Reply
  13. Alan Hall

    I've just done an easy hour on my new Elite Muin.
    It's hard to believe how silent this piece of equipment is.
    The first noise I heard when I started to turn the cranks was the swish of fluid from the disruption of whatever goes on in the resistance chamber and from then on it was the noise from my Dura Ace 9000 drivetrain - which had me almost convinced I needed some lubricant.
    The noise was similar to what you get on spinning bike in a silent room. Or similar to when you turn the cranks on a workstand to clean the chain through the rear mech.
    I can't report on the Elite software compatible on the iPad as I don't have the ANT+ dongle required to decode the information from the speed and cadence sensors - (I had to buy these separately buy the way)

    Reply
    • Vlado replied

      Hi Alan, thanks for short review! I am also considering this one as my Elite Qubo Hydromag is totally not as quiet as expected and now I will be moving to a different appartment where quietness becomes priority number one...
      Can you also share experience with vibration of the thing? With my Qubo, with or without dedicated trainer tire, I get quite noticeable amount of vibration to the whole bike, which also generates noise... (I am also using washer mashine anti vibration mats under it, but it helps only until certain speed...).

      Reply
  14. Jürgen

    Ich bin sehr gespannt auf einen ausführlichen Test ......hoffentlich erzeugt der Turbo Muin so wenig Vibrationen das man in in der Wohnung nutzen kann ohne andere zu stören . Ich glaube von der Lautstärke her kann man gut mit leben .

    /// Google Translated ///

    I am very excited to ...... hopefully generates a detailed test of the turbo Muin so little vibration that you can use in the apartment without disturbing others. I think of the volume here you can live with

    Reply
  15. JT

    Really keen on one of these but want to know what the highest resistance is like. In the 53 x 11 what kind of cadence would you be pushing? Like to do big gear work.

    Reply
    • Mathew replied

      On the elite homepage is a image that shows that 53x11 with cad. 100 requires more than 2000W.

      Reply
  16. Julien

    Hi,
    Is it possible to use this Elite to work at 50 rpm for a medium biker with 53x11 ?

    Reply
  17. Bruno

    I'm using TurboMuin since few days with my Campi Record 11 speed and it's extremely quite and powerful.
    Hi guys noted comparison with Kickr and Computrainer - 10 dB less: it means 10 times less noise than them!
    For this reason I heard only sounds of my Campi.
    At the begging I had to replace Shimano freehub with Campi one.

    Reply
  18. cerebis

    A difference of 10 dB is 10x the power but in apparent volume that works out to 2x. To produce only half the volume of previous trainers that were considered acceptably quiet is a pretty big deal. That said, I know that I cannot clean a chain (spinning the crank backwards) before heading out on a morning ride without complaints from others in the house. So its not "library reading room" quiet. But ya, its frickin quiet for a trainer.

    I disagree that this product is so different to electronic ergos (Kickr, Computrainer, etc) as to not be comparable. Ultimately, they all result in a stationary bike for training. Sure, there are definite benefits to a device which can control the resistance automatically, but it also isn't necessary to train at a high level.

    I spent many hours on a sponsor's Computrainer and had to settle for a basic fluid trainer when I lost that toy. I really thought I would not be able to do without the CT and couldn't justify the expense to buy my own. When it was announced, I really expected I would buy a Kickr, but have held off (didn't luck out with the 4 giveaways either, sniff!). Instead, I've combined TrainerRoad, a power-meter and my basic trainer. It is good enough to make it really difficult to convince myself that spending >$1000 is worth it for a few -- albeit nice -- features. Even for those without a power-meter, TR's virtual power feature is a pretty good answer.

    Further, I do that indoor training to ultimately perform on the road in races. Take any power session to the road and you will need have learnt how to generate the required power at the target cadence on a real drivetrain with discrete gears. The effectively continuously variable gearing of automated ergos teaches you little about how to do that. And before anyone says it, I know you can switch modes on many of these top-end electronically controlled trainers.

    I think this Muin would be an absolute winner if it was slightly cheaper. In Australia, delivered that thing is still a significant purchase for me at about $750 from Wiggle. Once I get up around $1k, my brain starts saying "only $1300 and you would have a Kickr -- good times!" The Muin's saving grace for me is the noise level. I know it would not issue for me to use early or late, while the Kickr is still loud in a domestic sense.

    Reply
    • Nico replied

      "Sure, there are definite benefits to a device which can control the resistance automatically, but it also isn’t necessary to train at a high level."
      Raising a question. How does the resistance work ? Is it possible to use a very high cadence ? Or does the resistance automatically adapt to a certain cadence and are we limited to this cadence ?
      My question might be stupid!

      Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Cadence will impact resistance. You can compensate for that (to a degree) by shifting gears. Ultimately, 'speed' is what drives resistance on fluid trainers like Muin - basically, just like outdoors on a flat surface.

      Reply
  19. Pat

    Hallo,
    Does anybody know if it's possible to have all the relevant data on a bike computer like Garmin Edge? So to have one file on my trainingspeaks-account?
    Cadence from Garmin Cadence Sensor
    Heart Rate from ANT+ Heart Rate sensor
    Wattage from power2max
    AND actual speed and distance from Elite Turbo Muin
    The first three are obvious but I also want to have the speed and distance on my trainings platform. Or do I have all this in the App from Elite?
    Thanks and br, Pat

    Reply
  20. Morten Kragh

    Hi,
    I just got my TurboMuin today, but I can't connect the Ant+? How can the TurboMuin send data to the Ant+? Maybe a stupid question? But thanks anyway.
    /Morten

    Reply
  21. dalex

    Any feedback on the road feel of the Turbo Muin? Compared to the Lemond Revolution?

    Reply
  22. Bruno

    Hi guys,
    I'm using TurboMuin 3 times per week in this period.
    Road feel is perfect because the pedalling is smooth in all conditions (high rpms with lowest gears or low rpms with higher gears).
    Actually I don't have Elite APP but I've understood that with an ANT+ speed/cadence sensor applied on Turbomuin APP is able to calculate number of rotations of internal flywheel, so it elaborates power datas in according to the speed.
    ANT+ HR belt can be paired with APP for monitoring HR frequency. Iphone receives ANT+ datas using an ANT+ dongle.

    Reply
  23. I am not sure where you guys are getting your Turbo Muin's from but I just got this from the store my order is with "It is unfortunately not good. The CH-importer now has just received 15 pieces. 1 piece comes to us. This unit is for a customer waiting for some time. Unfortunately, neither elite nor the CH-importer can tell when the next shipment arrives."

    Think I need to buy a Wahoo Kickr

    Reply
    • Alan Hall replied

      I got mine from Dave Mellor Cycles. UK store.

      Reply
  24. Franco

    Hi there. Does the Wahoo sensor key come with the TurboMuin or it is sold separately? Thanks

    Reply
    • Alan Hall replied

      The sensors and the ANT+ key is sold separate. More expense unfortunately.
      It's not clear on any sites I could find. :(

      Reply
  25. Günter

    anyone has already experience how good the Muin s for intervall training. I mean how easy or hard is it to hold a certain wattage. I have to say the Muin would be my first trainer and I stiklkl unsure about buying the Muin or a Wahoo.

    Reply
  26. Peter Bartley

    To get power do I need to buy this separate ant+ speed and cadence sensor? So on top of the unit I need to buy that, a ant + dongle, pay for my e training app, a cassette. It's not looking much cheaper than a kickr anymore.

    Reply
  27. Peter Bartley

    Guess I should've waited for your detailed review DC. I just opened my Turbo Muin (which I in my mind wasted a few months waiting for) & feel a bit p*ssed about it. Nothing but extras to make it anything like as good as the Wahoo. On top is the cost of a cassette £25 + ant + dongle for iPad £50 (which needs to be stacked on top of an adaptor as all my apple gear takes the new charger) + now it needs a speed sensor on top (which sticks to the side of the frame in some inelegant way) £40 + my training app subscription £10. So we are up to an extra £125 to make this thing do all the bs Elite are shouting about.

    Reply
  28. Just had my first spin on the muin. Here are my initial thoughts:

    1. Noise--it's not silent. Relatively quiet compared to other turbo trainer options yes but crazy quiet it is not.
    2. Feel & resistance--good road feel & not wanting in the resistance department. I am running a compact chain set & 12-25 cassette & am nowhere close to feeling like I can out power the thing.
    3. Stability--good, heavy solid construction. However, I have to say that I am hesitant to get out of the saddle & give it some proper heft. My nervousness isn't linked specifically to the turbo muin but to direct drive connection systems in general. Perhaps someone can put my mind at ease--is my 800g frame at risk of damage to the drop outs from out of the saddle sprinting (which normally comes with side ways movement)?

    Reply
  29. DC I have the exact same speed/cadence sensor you have been supplied in the photo there. Can you explain to me how you managed to place the speed sensor on the drive side but still place the cadence sensor (they are connected by a wire) on the non-drive side? I cannot use the cadence sensor on the drive side as there is insufficient clearance between the chain & the crank arm to allow for placement of a magnet.

    This whole set up is looking rather cobbled together.

    Reply
  30. Andre LM

    Hi Ray,

    Thanks for the video! Sound level looks good. To me, it seems that almost all noise comes from the drivetrain, and the trainer is not contributing (much) to the overall noise level. I know you had limited time with the CycleOps Silencer, but would you say that the Muin generates considerably less noise, or they are at the same ballpark level?

    Also, it seems you have a new version of the Pioneer PM with the DA 9000 cranks. Any timeline for the review? For the Rotor Power review, are you planning to do with the SW8 firmware, or waiting for a newer version?

    Thank you and Merry Christmas for you and the Girl!

    Reply
  31. I received my Elite Muin a week ago.

    Coming off of the Kurt Kinetic, a few notables:

    1. Not as quiet as you'd think, but that's generally from the drivetrain/cassette/chain.
    2. Slightly more resistance than the KK.
    3. Very easy to set up.
    4. Heavier than the KK. Not really very portable like the KK.
    5. Not having to re inflate the tire is a nice option. Paired with a Kreitler fork stand, I'm riding sans wheels.
    6. Still undecided on which has more of a "road like" feel. Very close.

    For most athletes, I'd suggest the KK at less than half the price, unless having the quietest trainer (with less vibration) is paramount in the decision making process.

    Reply
  32. Peter Bartley

    I'd echo those comments & add:

    1. Not that quiet
    2. Expensive for what it is.
    3. Train with power is a bit of a con. You're just getting a power profile like trainer road. We don't even know if it's remotely accurate.
    4. To fully use the muin lots of on top set up costs that you need to account for: cassette, speed/cadence sensor (even though I already have a Garmin one), ant+ dongle, apple lightening adaptor (for those of us who have the latest apple kit). £130-150.

    I waited several months & missed that training period. I mean seriously who doesn't ship a turbo trainer until late November......

    In summary either spend the extra and buy a wahoo kickr or spend much less & get something more basic.

    Reply
  33. Nico

    Got mine. For 385euros shipped (pretty good deal! the price went up to 480euros a few minutes after).
    So, yes, it's not as quiet as I would have expected. Actually, the Muin is very very quiet, but not my drivetrain! (I am gonna have to lube the chain a bit more to see if that makes the whole better).
    Regarding it's price : to me, it's the best deal because you don't have to use your rear wheel, so no need to have a dedicated tire, no tire slippage and so on. Regarding the accessories : everybody already has a spare cassette... Regarding the ANT+ speed sensor that you need if you want to have your ride distance, I bought a Bontrager speedtrap (made to be intergrated in the Trek Madone fork) for 17euros that I will glue (I hope it will work, but no big concerns about that) on the Muin so it will permanently be on it. I had a sunto speed sensor and after hours trying to pair it with GoldenCheetah, I figured out it was ANT compatible (not ANT+) so it was not possible to pair it with my ANT+ usb dongle!
    I have a crank-based powermeter so for me, the Muin is perfect. I use GoldenCheetah so I don't need to spend extra money to get their proprietary software (plus I don't have an up-to-date iphone).

    Reply
    • PETER Bartley replied

      Good price!

      I like the sound of your Bontrager speedtrap sticking direct to the muin. If that works let me know please. It sounds like a more elegant solution than what I currently have.

      I bought all the extras to set up using the elite app on iPad. However, I've now ordered a Suunto USB ant+ as I'm going to try out trainer road as they have now added the muin virtual power profile. I'm hoping the Suunto can receive cadence & HR from my Garmin sensors & then speed from the other.

      I'd be really interested Nico if you could do a power reading comparison of your SRM vs the elite app orTrainer road?

      Reply
  34. Fwiw, I'll be putting up some power comparison data on the two. I was waiting to get the final production unit, which I swapped out for a few days ago, just in the odd case something changed. I might have time Tuesday night when I get back for a few hours, otherwise it'll be a week later when I return from CES. I'll likely just be doing a power/speed pyramid and will capture Vector/Quarq/Stages data against speed. I'll include all the raw WASP data like I usually do for power meter comparison tests.

    Reply
  35. Alan Hall

    Good news for TrainerRoad fans.
    The Muin has been added to their list of devices compatible with virtual power.

    Reply
  36. For those looking for power curve data, see below. Done with a Elite Muin (final production unit) + their SPD/CAD sensor + Quarq Elsa + Stages PM. Recorded to three different units (WASP, 2xEdge 800's), and validated speeds across the board matched the app. Full details inside the read-me of sorts in the zip file.

    link to dcrainmaker.com

    Reply
    • Tim replied

      Are there any tools that can take a power curve and annotate something like tcx file? I have an "old" kurt road machine (and the pdf of the power curse), a tcx file and its seems like I shouldn't need to buy an inRide. Not to mention dealing with magnates flying across the room.

      Alternatively, do you know where I could find a trackpoint from a tcx file that contains power information?

      Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      With TrainerRoad you don't need to buy the inRide. Ultimately, the whole 'middleware' piece is where people charge to make money and convert that information into usable power. That includes the correlation between X speed and Y wattage.

      Reply
    • sadgit replied

      I stuck the figures into excel and compared with Elite's quoted figures of 110W@20k, 700W@40k, 2150W@60k and got a reasonable correllation.

      Your data seems to have a step at about 25kmh, below that elite over estimates above that they're under your figures. I expect that their estimates are a pretty decent benchmark even if not bang on.

      Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      I'm interested in doing another test, but this time, doing it after 45-minutes of riding (in other words, post a regular workout). In playing with things on Friday for fun, I went ahead and kept the same cadence and the same gearing and just 'let it ride' for the first 12 minutes. I saw a pretty dramatic shift (about 80w) over the course of that time period for warm-up. After that, it calmed down, but still appeared to be climbing perhaps a few watts per minute.

      I may also do a test where I simply continue that exact same thing - maintain cadence and gearing and see how long until things 'level out' wattage wise.

      Reply
    • mio replied

      Did you already do such a longer session? In my experience the warm up time takes longer than 15 minutes. I usually warm up 30 minutes. After that I am not sure if it is my exhaustion or some continuing power shifts that make my hart rate rise.

      Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Yeah, I'm seeing mixed results on actual warm-up times. In conversations with Elite about it.

      Reply
  37. Hi Ray, from my correspondence with Elite on the app power they said the following (note I was getting crazy low numbers like you too--I worked out my FTP to be like 115w):

    Dear Peter,
    have occurred as early as 10 days ago, the existence of a bug THE APP as they are loaded with detailed maps of power the opposite of the serial number. By inserting a low serial number 10100, for example, you load the right powers.
    We have already taken steps to correct the APP that is pending approval in the APP store and then it will be possible to download free of charge as any other APP, in the meantime you can work around by entering a serial number below.

    However, I have since given up on the app & moved to trainer road. However, there I would say that the virtual power estimate is too high! It would be great if you could check that as well.

    It's all a bit goldie locks & the 3 bears. One is too low, the other I think too high, would be great to get one just right.

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Thanks for the tip on the serial. I'll swap it and give it a whirl.

      As for TR, yup, they got my data a few minutes before I posted here. They had requested it initially so that they could update theirs, as they were a bit skeptical on the accuracy of the curve they had from some other source. Hopefully this is more accurate...

      Reply
  38. If the app is right I either ride like a 9 yr old or if trainer road is right I should mail in my data to Team Sky & see if they have a spot for me.

    I have to say the Elite customer service have been good though. They mailed me some small magnets to try to get my cadence sensor working (wire on the unit too short)--which actually worked as I was able to place it all the way to the end of my non-drive crank. After that they then sent me an a complimentary sensor with extended cable which I thought was nice. Wish they had designed it in the first place so this wasn't needed however!

    How do you find the resistance ray? I find it hard to push the 50 chain ring with +80 cadence & no cross over.

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Hmm, I find resistance 'normal'. I'm riding a compact so I can have a bit more flexibiliy there.

      The thing that annoys me is the cadence combo/magnet setup. I'm using all the stock stuff, and if I'm in the smallest ring in the back and biggest in front, the cadence magnet on my crank-arm actually touches the chain (because, it has to be on that side to make it all work). Grrr.

      Reply
    • Peter Bartley replied

      The cadence speed sensor thing is a real cock up by Elite. So much so that they sent me for free a new unit with a modified connecting cable that they extended. This enabled me to run the cadence sensor on the non drive side away from the side.

      Glad it's not just me that was finding that trying to run the cadence magnet on the drive side crank was resulting in it clipping the chain constantly due to magnetic attraction!

      I mean didn't Elite check this stuff before releasing this trainer!?

      Reply
  39. Hi All-

    Just a quick heads up on a few items as I just heard from the Elite folks.

    1) An app release went out that's live as of today on the store. It includes a bunch of changes, but the two biggest ones are:

    A) The serial number issue has been resolved, correct calibration values should now be there
    B) You can now export in .TCX format - perfect for upload to anything on this planet

    2) They've got some new speed/cadene sensors they're working on with a modified cable length that will be applied to new units going forward. Peter above got one of those new sensors.

    Have a good weekend!

    Reply
    • Jacob BH replied

      Hi Ray, Anything new on the Speed/cadance sensor Elite are working on? or are there others sensors with a cable length long enough for speed and cadance.

      Reply
  40. Hey Ray. So it seems I was on to something when I was bugging Elite with emails about the power estimate being too low & the sensor cable being too short!

    Out of frustration I actually sent back my Wahoo Dongle & moved over to using trainer road (which I really love).

    Ray, how now is the Elite app at estimating power vs a real power meter? Does the virtual power curve to trainer road correlate with reality? I know that Chad has received files from you to modify their curve.

    Doesn't really matter. My Stages Power meter arrives on Monday......

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      In testing pre-today, I was seeing about 15-20% variance, depending on serial number. I have not yet tested the updated version today.

      Reply
    • Peter B replied

      Cool. Cant wait to receive my stages & get that working with trainer road.

      I think I might find reality crushing when I see how real power compares to strava and trainer road estimates.....

      Reply
  41. Nacho Orozco

    Hi guys,

    Actually this post in DCRainmaker, is the only and most accurate forum talking about the ELite Turbo Muin of ALL the Internet!, well done guys!

    Lets get into business... thanks to this post I bought my Trubo Muin 3 weeks ago and I’ve been using it since then with my 29" Mtb.

    First question, does anybody knows what should we do compensate the height difference from the front wheel to the rear? as this is a 29" mtb using thick tires, actually the bike is 3-4 degrees tilted to the front, which is not nice to my ass! ;)

    Second question, I still don’t have the app or the ANT+ adaptor for ipad and now I want to buy it. However is you go to the webpage of Wahoo now they sell Bluetooth cadence sensor. Does anyone knows if the App would work on ipad 4 communicating with Bluetooth to the cadence sensor??? this way we dont need to buy the ANT+ dongle or the lighting connector adaptor.

    I use right now my Garmin Edge 810 to visualize the cadence and the Hearth rate.... would this work with the ANT+ dongle and the App??

    Thanks A LOT one more time guys! really appreciated!

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      No, the Elite app doesn't use support any BT sensors. It would actually be relatively easy for them to do so, since I suspect they use the latest Wahoo Fitness API (they have to use some version of it), so connecting to those devices is pretty straight forward from the WF API. In any case, none today.

      With the Edge 810, if you bought the Wahoo iPhone/iPad adapter, it'll work with the same strap. For example, last night I had my Garmin HR Strap on, connected to both the iPad (with adapter) and my Edge 810.

      Reply
  42. Bob Gordon

    Hey guys - thinking of investing in one of these... how is the stability for out-of-the-saddle efforts?

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      For stability aspects, it'd be fine for out of the saddle efforts where you stay mostly above the frame. But if you're really rockin' the house, then I'd be a bit cautious as the Muin doesn't quite have as wide a base as other trainers.

      As for frame damage, I've been talking with a ton of bike companies lately while putting together a piece on potential trainer damage to frames (carbon and aluminum). In short, you're fine.

      Reply
  43. The frustrating issue you will have as you have an iPad 4(like me) is that the wahoo dongle is for the old style iPad connector not the new thin lightening connector. This means you need to drop another £20 on the Apple connection adaptor.

    My experience of the set up was:

    1. Buy the £40 cadence/speed sensor which does not work because the cable is too short. Elite is now modifying units due to feedback from guinea pigs like me.
    2. Elite app £7.50 per year & it is a pretty horrible piece of software engineering although it sounds a like a significant update was released today.
    3. To connect the ant + only speed/cadence sensor to iPad 4 I had to spend £50 on a wahoo dongle + £20 on an Apple lightening connector.

    After the pain & cost of connecting to the Elite app you are rewarded with wattage data which is totally inaccurate. Again an update was released today which may address this.

    I gave up on the Elite app & bought a £20 Suunto Ant+ USB receiver & am now using trainer road which I rate highly.

    With regards to out of the saddle efforts I am nervous to try this. Perhaps Ray or Elite can shine some light but I have a 800g frame directly connected to this thing with no give. I am worried that out of the saddle rocking motion could end up in catastrophic frame damage. Therefore, I stick to in the saddle interval work (8 or 20 mins).

    Reply
    • Nacho Orozco replied

      Peter nice and very ironic feedback, cheers mate! ;)

      From Trainerroad.com can you already select the Turbo Muin? if so, do you get exactly the same data as from the Elite My E-Training App? I mean, the same accurate / inacurate?

      Thanks again

      Reply
  44. Ray, in your final review I want to see you with your Giant connected to the Muin hammering it like you are Cav!
    Video of that please! ;-)

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Yeah, I've switched to mostly using it with my Cervelo P3C, as the Giant had an 11-speed cassette on it, and was giving non-awesome shifting performance with the 9-speed cassette I put on the Muin (as one might expect). So by going back to the 9-speed on the Cervelo, I was good to go. That still gives me Quarq Elsa power + Stages power, + Muin via app.

      And while I could have just installed an 11-speed on there, I've got the Giant mostly off doing outside PM testing with the Pioneer, Vector and PowerTap combo (swapped cassettes). And when indoors I'm on the CompuTrainer with it since I can then get CT power too (thus, four PM's).

      Reply
  45. Nacho, yes in trainerroad they have the turbomuin power curve which they were supplied by Elite.

    When I say the power measurement in the Elite app is/was inaccurate I mean it wasn't even close. It estimated my FTP at around 110 watts. This probably has not been the case since I was 9 years old. Apparently the latest app update addresses this but as I got rid of my wahoo dongle I cannot verify.

    The guys over at trainerroad feel that the power curve from Elite over estimates things & are actually working on a new curve based on Ray's analysis. From my own experience I find the power estimate I am getting from trainer road at least consistent with the values I get from strava on HC climbing segments (14km @6% 53:30 min climb). According to Strava would put my FTP at 280w. According to my last FTP test on trainerroad my estimate as 293w.

    I have a Stages power meter arriving next week so will get to the bottom of it.

    Reply
    • Nacho Orozco replied

      Thanks Peter, VERY helpful... Im getting right now the suunto ANT+ and will work with the computer instead and Trainerroad.

      Let us know your results with the Stages power meter!

      Reply
  46. Will do Nacho. Remember you still need to buy the speed/cadence sensor to transmit from the Muin. The Muin itself has no electronics etc.

    I will give you guys directionally what I think of trainer road virtual power vs Stages power meter. However, there will be no graphs & detailed analysis DC Rainmaker style!

    Reply
    • Nacho Orozco replied

      I already have the cadence/speed sensor from my Garmin Edge (ANT+)

      Reply
  47. PETER

    Nacho, I've one too. Do you think it will work if you stick it somehow to Muin freewheel case? I didn't try but would be keen to know. It'd mean I could sell the Elite sensor I have in place. All helps to cover the power meter I just bought!

    Reply
  48. Nacho Orozco

    Well right now I use the cadence meter from Garmin as it is fixed already to the bike frame and to the pedal crank, so it works fine for the cadence.... Does the Elite sensor gives you something else appart from cadence data?

    Reply
  49. Yes it gives speed. The known weight of the flywheel x speed (from sensor) is how the elite app or trainer road makes the power estimate.

    You need the speed sensor otherwise you will have no other data other than cadence.

    Reply
  50. John

    How's the resistance? Can one do proper sprints >1500W?

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      I can generally get around 1,000w, but beyond that isn't really my cup of tea. I tend to have a reasonably high FTP for longer efforts however.

      Reply
  51. New Stages power meter installed. Will do a FTP test tomorrow on trainer road & see how it stacks up vs my FTP according to the virtual power estimate for the Muin.

    Off topic but installing, updating, pairing a Stages power meter is super quick and easy.

    Reply
  52. OK & the power results are in......(& please forgive me for lack of graphs & detailed analysis!)........

    20 min FTP Trainer Road Test with Elite Turbo Muin virtual power 293 watts.

    & now with Stages power meter 272 watts.

    So the virtual power meter on trainer road is only 7% higher (in fairness I brutalised myself to tears in this FTP test so lets call it 7-10% higher). To me that's not bad at all!

    I have no idea how the updated Elite App stacks up vs that however I suspect it is about the same given that trainerroad are using the curve Elite provided them.

    Reply
    • Steve replied

      Hi Peter

      So is it nice to ride or like riding through mud?

      What are the max watts you can put out at 50RPM cadence?

      Reply
  53. PETER

    No it's nice to ride.

    I find the resistance on the high side though. For my FTP test I was running massive chain cross over from 50 chain ring up the cassette block.

    If I moved it to a 50-12 gear I doubt I could move it much.

    Unless you're Hercules I wouldn't worry about there being enough resistance.

    Reply
    • Steve replied

      Interesting.

      So is it any good for unloaded cadence drills?

      Reply
  54. PETER

    Unloaded cadence drills? What's that?

    Reply
    • Steve replied

      Very low resistance and your legs spin around say up to 140-160rpm.

      Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Yes, I actually did some of that just fine on Friday. No problems.

      Reply
  55. Steve

    ...This is sounding is sounding pretty good so far apart from the wheel speed measuring thing...

    How much space is there between the floor and the frame?

    I'm asking because I'm weighting my current trainer down to the floor with gym machine weights held on with u-bolts to the trainer frame in order to stabilise it during hard efforts.

    Just need some space for the u-bolts to fit between the floor and trainer.

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Between the horizontal bottom frame pieces and the floor, about 1mm, maybe 1.5mm. It's risen up slightly because of the rubber feet.

      Reply
  56. Nacho Orozco

    Peter B thanks a lot for your test of accuracy.

    Guys, yesterday I received my Suunto ANT+ USB for the PC, and the idea was to use it with my cadence/speed meter from Garmin ANT+.

    Now Ive joined the TrainerRoad.com but I get NO POWER data... of course, becuase I dont have the speed info.... however I was expecting that this app might let you inform of the dents in your cranks, so it could figure out the speed with the cadence.... whatever...

    So! how the hell do i get the speed info?? does the trainer have a magnet inside and you should have a speed meter outside the plastic and will work??? otherwise.... what should i do?

    Thanks a lot

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      If you attach the speed sensor to/near the drive side side of the case, you'll find there's a magnet inside. It trips the sensor.

      Reply
  57. Nacho Orozco

    THanks! could i move the Garmin cadence/speed sensor towards the back of the frame and just get the speed data? in this way, would the TrainerRoad.com will give me power data?

    Reply
  58. PETER

    Please let me know if possible to stick Garmin gsc 10 to turbo muin and get reading into trainer road that way. Means i could sell the elite sensor I bought.

    For me as I have a stages power meter and HRM strap is probably don't even care about distance or speed. All about working power Zones.

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Oh, there's definitely no technical issue in doing it. That works fine. The question is whether or not TR takes the baked in speed value from the GSC-10, and if that wheel circumference differs from the Elite one (which is 2070).

      Reply
  59. PETER

    Ray how'd you find the trainer road virtual power estimate? My FTP test when redone with stages would suggest a 10% over estimate vs reality.

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      I haven't done a comparison with TR yet. I might do it tomorrow. I've been mostly focused on trying to understand the differences between the native (updated) app and actual power meters.

      Reply
  60. HTor

    Hi Ray (and others;)
    I have just bought the muin and am now wondering about two things:

    1. The trainer makes a sound as if an air bubble is traped in the fluid (at least it sounds like an air bubble on lower speed). And
    2. I have the feeling that the required power to build up a specific "speed" is higher than on the road (measuring the speed by using the flywheel magnet and a wheel size as on the road).

    So what do you (muin owners) think? Do you have the same airbubble sound? And has somebody already made some power comparison for the "same speeds" on the road and on the trainer?

    Cheers
    HT

    Reply
    • John replied

      There is huge difference with resistance at higher speeds, look at the power curve on the box. It says 2000W for 60kph, most of us can easily hit 60 on flats, but few can top 2000W. And 40kph is like 700W

      Reply
    • HTor replied

      Great. Thanks for the Info!
      But what about the sound? Do you experience the same 'bubbly' sound?

      Cheers
      Ht

      Reply
    • John replied

      Not sure about the bubbly sound, but when starting from zero there is a swishing liquid sound when the turn-wheel starts displacing the liquid, maybe you might call that bubbly?

      Reply
    • HT replied

      Well that could be ...
      I thought that the containment would be completely filled with the fluid keeping it silent - like stirring in a cup, when not touching the cup the stirring is completely silent, right? ;)
      I'll contact Elite to be on the safe side, if I get any reply I'll post it.

      cheers
      HT

      PS: is here any possibility of uploading a file (m4u or alike?), I could upload a sample...

      Reply
  61. John

    My experience using Muin for a bout a month now:
    -It's quite silent, but by no means completely.
    -It has plenty resistance, and the resistance is very progressive. You want power sprints? You got power sprints!
    -It seems to have a short warm-up period for the resistance to work normally. Using my power2max cranks I compared the watts shown in the app to the ones on my garmin and for the first 5-10min there was a huge (20-40w) difference but after that it went down to 1-3% difference when between 100-500W.
    -The watts shown in the app have a huge error when doing full on sprints, it showed me doing 1900-2000W, when the real wattage according to my p2m cranks was 1500-1600W. But seems to be very accurate at lower speeds.

    Reply
    • HT replied

      Just another thing: I have neither a powermeter nor am I using the Elite app. So, my only estimation of power are my legs and my exhaustion ;)

      Probably, my question before was ambiguous, I was wondering if at e.g. 20km/h on the trainer (using the build in magnet and my standard bike computer, with same wheel settings) would represent the same speed on the street?
      I feel like doing ~24km/h on the trainer is like 30km/h on the street....

      Cheers
      HT

      Reply
    • John replied

      20kph is 150W. 150W is X kph on the street; depends on wind, equipment, incline/decline, humidity...etc

      Reply
    • HT replied

      Thanks,
      that works out quite well with my estimation. I've found this:
      link to gribble.org
      stating 150W = 30km/h. Now saying that I have not that kind of bike, clothes, etc. used for the calculation gives me maybe something like the 27km/h i've estimated.

      Would you mind giving me a couple of datapoints (power/ "trainerspeed") when you use your powermeter?, than I could calculate a virtual wheelsize compensating this discrepance (hopefully;)

      Thanks again and best regards :)
      HT

      Reply
    • John replied

      20kph 150w, 22,2kph 200W 28,7kph 400W. I need to check other speeds later. At the moment I use my CX with muin and I don't have powermeter on that.

      Reply
    • John replied

      Well from that you see that resistance is a lot more progressive than on the road. 400W on the flats is more than 40kph

      Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Just in case it was missed...I provided real power curve data across a few power meters up above in a .CSV file.

      Reply
  62. Kasper

    Just got mine today, but there is no sensor key in mine?

    Reply
    • HT replied

      The muin only consist of the trainer itself and the "spokemagnet" if you want to call it that way. everything else has to be bought seperately ... :/

      HT

      Reply
  63. ingen63

    sorry may be I missed it , but where is th cvs file

    Reply
    • Rainmaker replied

      Reply #57 (currently), or, here: link to dcrainmaker.com

      Reply
    • ingen63 replied

      thx for the hint, but I am still confused with your data. Are the reported speed data of the fit files really in MPH?
      This would lead to ~80W with 19MPH (or 30km/h). If I compare this to my power values with the Turbo Muin and the App I'll get 100W for 25km/h and 160W for 28km/h.
      Not to talk about the ones Elite provides, which somehow relates 21km/h to 160W and 30km/h to 500W.
      So Im totally puzzeled now!

      Reply
    • ingen63 replied

      I solved it! My really low power values were coming from a wrong S/N (Still used the 10100 from the reply #64.) Even with the new version 1.1.1 Now I am using the right S/N of my Turbo Muin and get power readings somehow in the range of DCRainmaker's fit files.
      No I can finally try to determine my real FTP. Hopefully this time higher than 130 Watts :)

      Reply
  64. HTor

    As far as i See it now the power required on the muin to drive a specific Speed is about 1.4 times higher than on the street - comparing ray's data to calculated values.

    Further, it seems as if john's values are a little higher than ray's or vice versa.
    Also the question arises if the calculated values are somewhere close to "real" power values when driving on the street... Maybe someone has some values from a flat, wind-free ride?

    But anyway, it seems as if my plan of using some sort of effective wheel circumference to counter the different power values, is not going to work. My cycling computer only takes circumferences up to ~2,3m ...

    Anyone any idea how I can get a kind of 'real' speed reading on the muin?

    Cheers
    Ht

    Reply
  65. Paul GIlmartin

    I'm looking to get Muin but I am confused with all this Ant+ stuff. My understanding is that it won't link to a Garmin as it isn't standard Ant+. However is it possible to get the power data from the Muin without an iPod/iphone (i.e. a PC or Android adapter)?

    It would seem strange to alienate anyone who deosn't have an Apple project?

    Reply
  66. Kim Lund Johansen

    Did the final review ever come out?

    Reply
  67. Will F

    Hi All,

    Had anyone else experienced any difficulty in loading their bike back on the trainer once you've attached an 11speed Shimano cassette?
    I feel I'm missing a beat our perhaps some spacers?
    It seems my Trek Madone 4.9 rear forks are a bit too wide for the trainer. Our is there a simple fix here.
    Appreciate any guidance.
    Cheers

    Reply
  68. Brian williams

    I have a Trek Madone 5.2 and have had no problems mounting or dismounting the bike on the Muin. However you do need to make sure you use the spacer that is supplied with the trainer as per the instructions.

    All in all I'm really impressed except for it not recognising an ANT feed from a Garmin device.

    Reply
  69. Will F

    Thanks Brain - I'll give it another crack. Unless I have things around the wrong way - I might need to get some additional spacers.
    Cheers

    Reply

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