Today, Whoop announced their new 4.0 sensor/device. Whoop is part-device, part-platform. The device is a small pod that doesn’t display any metrics itself, but rather has sensors to collect those metrics and transmit them to your phone and the larger Whoop cloud platform. Historically that’s been heart-rate driven data, but the new 4.0 pod includes blood oxygen levels and skin temperature. Once in the Whoop platform the company provides boatloads of data around what they dub ‘strain’ and ‘recovery’. In other words, how much/hard have you been working out, and how well are you recovering.
And while Whoop’s platform/software has largely been fantastic and innovative, the optical heart rate sensor within the Whoop 3.0 band could only be described as a dumpster fire. And thus, as the saying goes: Crap data in, crap data out. No amount of analytical processing could fix the flaming river of bad data into the platform. I talked about this at length in my review, and some 346 comments since then confirmed this by everyone else. Literally, nobody has managed to show me a single good hard/interval/etc workout with accurate comparative HR data. And yes, I’ve actually continued to wear the Whoop 3.0 sensor since my review. And with 379 workouts worth of data in every possible body location, compared to 2-4 other heart rate sensors per workout, and 531 ‘recoveries’. I’m pretty sure nobody has as much comparative data as I do on this thing. Which, means I’ll be well suited to talk about what, if anything, has changed on the 4.0 edition.
Whoop’s new 4.0 sensor is apparently all about improving accuracy of that data (as well as adding more data). We’ll get to those technical bits in a second.
First though, the new sensor isn’t actually the only announcement today. The second bit is that the company is making apparel to hold said new sensor pod. This includes everything from shorts to sports bras, compression tops to leggings. Plus some other new bands (details down below).
Finally, while I don’t have a new Whoop 4.0 sensor quite yet, I’m told one is on the way to me very shortly – where I’ll be able to put it through its paces. Given Whoop reached out to me ahead of this announcement, I can only assume they’re optimistic that they’ve solved their accuracy issues. Else, they’ll end up with another review like last time. I’m simple that way.
What’s New in 4.0:
So let’s dive into what’s new in terms of the Whoop 4.0 hardware. Note that while there’s also set to be a complete revamp of the Whoop app interface, that’s not part of today’s initial announcement. So I’ll cover that once it happens.
Here’s the new Whoop 4.0-specific features (all of which are hardware-driven):
– New sensor: This now has 5 LED’s (3xGreen, 1xRed, 1xInfared) compared to the previous 2xGreen. It now has 4 photodiodes, versus the 1 previously.
– Added Skin Temperature: We’ve seen this on a few wearables over the years, and is often used with sleep data
– Added Blood Oxygen monitoring: Measures SpO2, which is often used in both sleep-related data and high altitude data
– Added Sleep Coach with on-device alerts: This will wake you up based on optimal sleep cycles
– Added haptic motor (vibrations): This means the band can now alert you to things, starting with waking you up via Sleep Coach
– Added “Health Monitor”: This is more of an app dashboard thing, which shows live HR/skin temperature/blood oxygen/resting HR/HRV/respiratory Rate
– Added PDF Export of Health Monitor: This allows you to export out your Health Monitor dashboard metrics in a PDF for doctors/sports staff/etc in 30-180 day chunks.
– New Battery Design: Whoop says that they’re the “first product in the world” to use Sila’s new Silicon anode battery, which has 17% higher energy density and longer cycle life
– 5-day battery life: The unit maintains the previous 5-day battery life claim, despite the unit being much smaller
– New Whoop Battery Pack: This new pack is waterproof (woot!) and allows a double-tap for battery level
– Smaller size: Whoop says it’s now 33% smaller than prior
Many of these new measurement metrics are pretty much table stakes for wearable devices these days. Most of the new data metrics seen above have been on some combination of Apple/Garmin/Fitbit/Samsung devices for years. In the case of skin temperature, we first saw that waaaay back when on the Basis B1 device. Remember that? Arguably Whoop before Whoop as a concept even existed. Intel of course killed that.
The battery pack being waterproof is huge. I’ve long said the battery pack is arguably my favorite part of Whoop. The small pod snaps on the back of the Whoop strap, and is like mid-air refueling. Thus, you never have to take off the Whoop strap to charge it. You charge the battery pack, which then charges Whoop.
The problem though was that sometimes (ok, a lot of times), you’d put on the battery pack and then forget about it, and then jump in the shower. The unit itself has a small micro-USB port on it, which then let in water. Now despite me very-much-not-purposefully showering with it probably half a dozen times, it survived till the 7th time. Then it died and I had to buy a new one. Still, props for lasting that long. In any event, this resolves that.
Now, as you may remember from my review – I said there were three critical changes that I felt Whoop (3.0 and the platform as a whole) needed, all three of which are tied together a bit. They were:
A) A new optical HR sensor: Self-explanatory
B) The ability to delete/nullify inaccurate data: This is important if/when the sensor thinks that doing the dishes is a hard interval workout, as it spikes your strain value for the day and there’s no way to purge it.
C) The ability to pair to an external HR sensor: This is/was important for workouts where the Whoop sensor didn’t work well
Obviously, B & C are largely due to A’s issues. So I asked Whoop whether or not they had implemented either of the other two in the app (since that has nothing to do with the hardware itself), and unfortunately, neither have changed at this point. Whoop says that “members will not be able to edit an activity to remove a heart rate measurement they may feel is off (i.e., the HR spike you mentioned). WHOOP is still its own wearable and the app will not sync with another device like a chest strap.” This is unfortunate, but perhaps the new sensor will eliminate this enough to be on par with other wearable companies where it’s less of a concern.
Here’s a quick look at the new Health Monitor dashboard, where you can see both the current values as well as your normal values.
In terms of pricing, existing Whoop members will be able to get the Whoop 4.0 pod for free, as long as they have at least 6 months left on their membership. As a reminder, the Whoop device doesn’t really have a set price – rather, they have a minimum membership payment. Roughly speaking though, it works out to $180/device, since the minimum monthly membership is 6-months at $30/month. As long as you have at least 6 months left, then you can upgrade directly from the app or site, and units will begin shipping September 27th.
Whoop Body:
Next up is Whoop Body, which is essentially a line of apparel that holds the Whoop sensor. At first glance, you might think this is an apparel play (and yes, that’s true too). But in reality, this is probably more of a sensor accuracy and membership retention play. Remember: If people take off their Whoop and forget to wear it, then Whoop’s $30/month membership near-instantly becomes useless.
While the Whoop band is very comfortable, there are many scenarios where it’s just not super practical – either for comfort, or for accuracy (or even sport regulation-wise). All of Whoop Body’s new garments aim to hold the Whoop sensor against your body so that the sensor is still useful. Further, the unit claims to know which position on the body the sensor is placed. Whoop says that is via their “Any-Wear” detection technology built into the garment itself.
There are few different things at launch:
– Compression tops ($64)
– Leggings ($109)
– Shorts ($78)
– Sports bras ($79)
– Bralettes ($54)
– Athletic Boxers
– Regular Boxers (pack for $69)
– New ‘SuperKnit’ and ‘HydroKnit’ bands
The new bands are slightly different. The company says the SuperKnit band comes pre-threaded, and thus will have longer durability. Whereas the HydroKnit band is designed more for water sports and is faster drying. Anyone with a current Whoop strap knows the ‘FML’ moment when post-shower you lay your wrist near your thigh/crotch (such as sitting on a couch), only to have the Whoop strap soak a large wet spot there – realizing it a minute later. Hopefully this will dry faster.
Going Forward:
Again, this post is most definitely not a review. That’s obvious by the title which lacks the word Review, but also by the lack of any data to corroborate Whoop’s claims. So, once I do have sufficient testing data/time, I’ll be looking at largely one core thing: Is it finally accurate? Or at least, accurate enough.
I say ‘enough’, because that’s probably a more important thing here. Very few optical HR sensors are perfect 100% of the time. Just as chest straps are rarely perfect 100% of the time. I’ve tested enough to know that. Instead, what I want to know is whether or not it’s correct enough as to not meaningfully skew the outcome strain and recovery stats. The core issue with the Whoop 3.0 sensor is that it vastly undercounts intense efforts (due to overcompensatingly conservative algorithmic smoothing), while often incorrectly picking up non-existent activities as intense efforts. This meant that truly hard workouts aren’t accounted for properly, while doing the dishes merits the equivalent strain of 32×800 on the track. If Whoop can achieve accuracy on par with the more recent Apple/Garmin/Polar optical HR sensors (which, aren’t perfect, but are far better than the Whoop 3.0 sensor), then it’s likely good enough for the vast majority of use cases.
If Whoop has managed to pull that off with this new sensor – that’ll be a big thing. It still doesn’t solve for whether or not it’s worth $30/month, but that’s something we can dive into the full review (as well as whether the nightly Whoop recovery score is more accurate).
With that – thanks for reading!
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Is that $780 for shorts for real? Or should that be $78?
If you buy a 10-pack it’s $780. 😉 Thanks!
Okay. $78 for shorts?
That’s like…two pairs of Black Bibs.
Does anyone from that company come from Juicero, by any chance?
I had a Whoop 3.0. I bought a 1 year subscription and ended up putting it in a drawer and forgetting it after about 4 months because it was so crap. I’d mow the grass with a mower with a slightly-out-of-balance mower blade and it would say I’d done a 190BPM average heart rate during that time. I’d take a rest day and it would tell me that I was 7% recovered, then do a really hard kayaking race and be barely able to walk the next day, and it would tell me I’m 93% recovered. Whoop’s suggestion was to switch from a wrist to a bicep strap, but it didn’t help. If this new sensor fixes the problems, I’d be willing to take another chance on it, but only 6 months this time.
I‘m curious how your findings are.
One remark on the Health Monitor screenshot: how can it possibly be that a HRV value of 65 is between 86 and 99?
It’s not a review or a hands-on, the screen are from a press kit, the designer blew it. 😀
Would love you to put the Oura ring through its paces Ray.
Second this. Oura has had most/all the features Whoop touts as new for years and is the closest in terms of a strain/recovery tracker that I could find.
The only reason I ended up with a Whoop rather than an Oura ring is that I didn’t like thwe form factor/size of Oura but every so often I glance at the Oura with envy. Maybe, hopefully, Whoop 4.0 will change that.
Here for an Oura review as well. Not very excited about having a ring on to track my metrics but no subscription makes it really tempting
I bought the whoop and then ended up with the oura as well and after wearing both for a long time I can confidently say the oura is far more accurate and faster with its computations. I really don’t understand the whoop loyalty once they moved to subscriptions when the oura has all the same features, just not the same advertising budget I guess. The only reason I still have the whoop is I like that it syncs with strava but I probably should have sold it since they don’t seem like they will honor the founding/lifetime membership too much longer…
I’ll also chime in for Oura ring in-depth review (though it’s probably a bit outside of Ray’s sphere as it’s not really sports-related)
I have an Oura and will probably be returning it. I’ve found the sleep data to be pretty accurate, but everything else is kind of garbage. I can do an intense 45-60 minute spin session and it’s telling me I haven’t met my activity goal for the day. And then the next day it’s telling me I recovered well and should be ready for a productive workout. It feels like EVERYTHING with Oura is based around your sleep, with little regards to anything else.
Interesting experience.
I also have an Oura ring, and what you’re describing sounds like it didn’t pick up your spin session. Have had mine for about 5 months and it’s actually been great about detecting activity. Oura does suffer from being on your finger, where typing and fidgeting greatly inflate activity and step counts.
I also know that your activity does factor into your readiness score, unlike Whoop, where Strain metrics do not factor into your “recovery.”
I don’t really like the proprietary metrics of either (they’re arbitrarily-weighted nonsense IMO), and have begun importing my HRV into HRV4Training and using that app to look at HRV trends.
I don’t know, I’m still within my return window, but I’ve done quite a few workouts and have never actually hit my daily activity goal. And I consider myself to be a pretty active person.
Activity doesn’t seem to factor into readiness, but I will take your word for that. If it does, mine isn’t accurate given the daily activity issues I’m having.
I should note that I have Google Fit hooked up to pull in my activities, and it seems to be working properly because they show up, but I’m still falling short.
Ah thank you! Having just watched the Whoop live event and getting caught up in the excitement to try it out I knew to check by here first. I think I’ll definitely wait for your review!
Good that they reached out to you to get it tested promptly. I’ve been annoyed by their focus in the last year on prioritizing VC funding and pro sports partnerships while seemingly turning a blind eye to the data inconsistencies.
One side thought: Will has made it clear in their podcast that they want to explore other methods of tracking data, and I wondered if they would come out with additional trackers similar to the Supersapiens device. I have to wonder if it irritates him that other companies are beating Whoop to the punch, or if Whoop is just unsatisfied by the current lifespan of those trackers. (I imagine Whoop would have difficulty justifying paying for the analytics platform on top of purchasing disposable devices on a frequent basis.)
So is the new 4.0 compatible with all the stuff they just bought from PUSH? now that would be major news (and awesome)
I would be very quick for them to have got all the stuff from the acquisition of PUSH given that they only announced it within the last few weeks. Hopefully they will integrate new stuff via firmware and software updates and then anything else into the Whoop 5
And their web site has crashed…can’t get in to order it.
Will the old bands work with the new whoop 4.0? I bought a bicep band a few weeks ago. Hopefully I won’t need to buy a new one to fit the new strap.
Consensus seems to be “probably not”
it won’t work, the bands are all new. they are pre-threaded and the clasp slides on from the side so you can change them out without threading or adjusting each time. i think the change was very much needed but at the same time it’s a way to get money from subscribers who are otherwise getting “free” bands… my free order ended up at $118 with tax and shipping since i got an extra wrist band and a bicep band.
Ray – any sense of when we can expect your review? Very interested to see how this compares to the 3.0. I just purchased a Fenix 6 (figured I couldn’t wait around forever!) and was on the fence of whether to keep my Whoop.
all I can say is good luck trying to sleep with the fenix 6 on longterm! (I couldn’t manage it – shame as the garmin system is/was better)
I got the 6S for this reason 🙂
I’ve been wearing a Fenix 5 24/7 for the past few years, can’t say I’ve had any problem sleeping with it on.
I’m sleeping with my 6X without any issues for more than a year now (and I usually sleep with my hand under my head, so almost on the watch).
I had a Whoop 2.0 and 3.0. It was most helpful to understand how much I slept. Generally the “Whoop Score” indicating my recovery was interesting but not surprising. Every once in a while it was completely off likely from bad HRV data at night.
I did use a biceps strap and this helped with better HR data. It was still off at times, usually during really hard workouts with fast HR ramp ups like VO2 cycling efforts. For longer endurance rides it was generally fine.
After wearing it for about a year I developed a rash from the device. Others have reported it too and there is some discussion about this on the TrainerRoad forums.. Cleaning/washing it didn’t solve the issue.
I picked up a Fenix 6 on Prime Day this year when it was significantly marked down and it has been excellent. It had a really good sleep tracker. When I’m feeling “off”, invariable I check the sleep tracker data and I didn’t have a restful night. I might have slept long enough, but Garmin will report that it was restful (eg. non enough REM). I have no issues sleeping with the Fenix 6 and I also really like it as an alarm.
For those thinking of going with the Whoop 4.0, American Express has a promotion right now to get 30% off (up to $50) on a Whoop purchase. This ends October 1st.
Never really read any reviews for the whoop before I got one, I’m actually shocked to hear everyone thinks the HR sensor is trash. I’ve been super impressed with it, it is VASTLY superior to the sensor in my fenix 6x, which had massive lag and never accurately got my HR when it was above 80% MHR, While the whoop pretty much checks with my chest strap HR data.
I have to say I was surprised too. I read Ray’s review and STILL bought a whoop after (i’m crazy) but i’ve had good luck. the optical sensor is clearly not as good as my apple watch series 6 for lifting workouts but all my endurance / cardio workouts like running have actually been a near match… certainty only a few beats off here or there. i also haven’t seen any activities that weren’t workouts registered, like when Ray had weeding register as a massive workout. i wear mine on the wrist 80% of the time and 20% on the bicep and both have been accurate.
I have more than 6 months remaining on my subscription so i already have the 4.0 coming free but of course they got $100 since i wanted to get a new bicep strap and a non-black wrist strap (the free one is black) and the straps are an all new design, you can’t use your old ones.
So far I’ve been pretty happy with Whoop. I do wish all this more detailed functionality was in my Apple Watch and I still think Whoop and their tech is a HUGE takeover target because the #1 barrier to entry (well maybe #2 after cost) is having another device to wear besides a watch.
This was a shock to me too. I’m still on the Whoop 2.0 and the data on there is actually much better than on either my previous TomTom watch and my Garmin Fenix 5X Plus or anything else I tried up to the TAG Heuer Connected. The devices just don’t pick up my activities (rowing and crossfit), where the Whoop is almost always on point. I’m really glad that I get to try the Whoop for two years for free, as I was a “Founding Member”.
Does 4.0 also broadcast HR?
A bit disappointed that Whoop didn’t provide a pre-release pod for a review early on. Guess will have to wait before committing for a second time
Given the 7-8 weeks lead time (I ordered 35 mins into the session) I imagine they are being hit very hard by the semiconductor shortage at the moment and have very limited units. They are more interested in high profile sports stars wearing and promoting it so they will have got them first.
Is the battery pack still micro usb or usb c?
It’s USB-C now
I am a founding member of Whoop and as a founding member I purchased the first Whoop and have upgraded in hopes of the device getting better and it’s been marginally better, to say the least. The heart rate is almost never right. Moreover, as a founding member, I was promised lifetime service (ie no subscriptions) but today in the app, it says my subscription expires in 2 years and I received an email saying as a founding member, I can upgrade to 4.0 and receive 2 years of service for free. This is very frustrating as a lifetime member who probably spent $1K on their devices and accessories. I’ve emailed support to get to the bottom of this.
Same here – and despite telling us at the time it was either a one time fee OR a subscription.
You can still be a lifetime member right? Just keep using your old strap. I don’t think it it strange that you have to pay to upgrade. I bought the Whoop 2.0 and thus am Founding Member myself, but I didn’t upgrade to Whoop 3.0, because I thought the step wasn’t big enough. Still got support (and 2 new devices) in the last couple of years. Now I’m happy with the offer to go to 4.0 for free. Seeing that a membership is $300 I got about $1.200 of lifetime free stuff from them already and still have $600 to go. Frankly I think it is unrealistic to ask a startup to keep giving you free stuff when you bought something foor $400-ish of them years ago.
No, you can’t stay on the free option, got forced “upgraded” to the 4.0 subscription, with 2 free years on. All in all not a bad option, but a change of word nonetheless.
startups should be very cautious about how they use the word “lifetime” seems to be the bigger takeaway.
Actually, I bought one device for $500 and another for $400 (not to mention several hundred dollars on accessories), and each time I was told I would continue to be a lifetime member because I was a founding member and I elected to pay the full price (the option wasn’t available unless you’re a founding member). I didn’t ask for this, they offered it to me. So it’s unrealistic to pay full price for a device with them giving me their word that I’m not ever paying for a subscription, then to go in the app and see that they’ve gone back on their word. It’s unethical business practice and they didn’t give me any sort of notification or options to make my own decision, they just updated it in the app and didn’t say a thing. I didn’t buy the 4.0 and they didn’t send me a note saying they were sending me a new one. They just changed my subscription silently in the background.
Hey Ray,
Just some constructive feedback on the Whoop.
I was really reluctant to get one reading your review and comments, but a year ago decided to take the plunge and try it myself.
I have to admit that a year on I am a hugely impressed. To be clear I agree with all your comments but I find that the weaknesses you have addressed do not actually take anything away from the functionality of this brilliant revolutionary piece of kit.
Putting things in context I am a hobbyist. I cycle both on the trainer and indoors, 4 times per week, ~10hrs per week.
I agree the HR sensor is not too accurate during workouts and there are times during the day there are spikes in HR.
Addressing the first issue of HR accuracy during a workout, is that i do not actually track my workout performance using the whoop, I just use it as a rough guide as to what I did, i find no use in tracking my workout performance through Whoop.
The second issue about spikes during the day, I fully agree with you on there being a need to ‘correct’ any false readings. But after a year of use I have managed to pin point the problem. Its the fit, if the strap is snug, there are no spikes whatsoever. I tested in numerous time and with every ‘false’ reading the the strap was slightly loose.
However, all of the above completely to not take anything away from the true strength and amazingness of the Whoop. That is the recovery. Calculated recovery score have nothing to do with previous days Strain Score and therefore any spikes in HR do not impact the Recovery Scores in any way. Recovery is solely calculated on the readings which are collected during the sleep
Phase. In one year and 345 recoveries i have not had a single spike during my sleep.
There is no product out there which can give you a recovery indication based on everyday life factors and workouts of any nature or sport. This is what makes it unique and in my humble opinion will make me continue using them.
Thank you and I really hope I have been helpful, feel free to contact me should you have any question or comments.
I just use a HRV app with a chest strap, works great to track Recovery in the morning. There are several free apps available, but I decided to go ahead and just buy a great one (one time payment) to support the developer. It also checks for correlations (diet, meds, coffee, etc).
You can even do it “old style” if you are so inclined. I used an Excel spreadsheet for 2 months just to test the concept, did linear correlations with my HRV readings.
If you’re looking for a finished and polished product, then the Oura Ring it’s a great option, without a subscription model.
I agree. I use the Oura Ring with an iOS app (HRV4Training) to pretty seamlessly get my HRV recovery each morning. FWIW, I have a colleague who is an Olympian (2016 silver medalist) who had used a WHOOP but switched to HRV4Training and found it did a better job pinpointing when she needed to recover. YMMV of course.
As for WHOOP accuracy in general, I agree with Ray’s assessment. Yes, the device is more accurate if you strap it on tight enough to be uncomfortable, but even then it’s no more accurate than my Apple Watch. Just looking at my WHOOP data for today, while I was sitting at my desk all day – WHOOP recorded a spike to 140 and several others around 130 – the daily strain calculations are useless as a result. It’s pretty good when I’m on my trainer and my wrist isn’t moving – for the most part comparable with Apple Watch or my Polar HR strap (though still not as accurate), so strain for individual activities isn’t bad, but PAI Health can calculate that as well.
Thank you very much for detailed comment. It is really great go read about experience.
I would disagree with your comment that no other device does offer detailed readiness to train:
– HRV4Training, as mentioned, is really good and certainly worth trying as it is only 10 bucks.
– Any Polar watch will give you readiness to train based HRV during the night and the higher end ones allow you to take a HRV reading in the morning to give you a readiness to train metric. This is also informs its Fitspark suggested workouts.
– Garmin has Body Battery which also functions as input for its daily suggested workouts. Garmin will adjust the workouts based on workout and life stress.
– For the Apple Watch, there is the TrainToDay app which also does readiness to train based on HRV.
I’m glad it doesn’t seem to have gone to your head, but it’s crazy to me that a company can spend millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours on a product and then a make or break component of their launch is, “I hope Ray likes it” :). Thanks for your continually awesome reviews, I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on the new sensor.
C-A-N-T W-A-I-T for this review.
Assuming the new Whoop accurately captures data, the debate can commence on whether $30 month is a reasonable ask to have your wearable “work”.
For all of the hype of Whoop, I can’t really justify paying a dollar a day for seemingly common features and data. I recently picked up a used Garmin Vivosmart 4 (a device launched back in 2018) for $40 on eBay… It’s smaller, it’s got a touch screen and on-device controls, and body battery functionally helps with recovery (not exactly comparable to Whoop, but theoretically sufficient for most casual athletes). I hope Garmin continues to develop the Vivosmart line so we have reasonable options!
Garmin has shown no interest in this line up – they were producing at a new model per year for three or four years, its now been three years since the four, they have long since given up incorporating new features (like the new sleep tracking and the various integrated recovery metrics, i.e. if I wear by 945 I can get boosts to recovery time etc.) – safe to conclude Garmin isn’t interested in selling you a $100 band – it wants to sell $500 watches to compete with the Apple watch. Its a shame because as someone who likes to wear a traditional watch, I too have used an old school band and have had a four since 2019, but am at the stage where the 4 appears to effectively being dropped and certainly don’t see the new tech coming to it which means for me I’m probably in the market for something else (and probably non-garmin reluctantly).
That said, I really dislike subscription models. I would kinda have sympathy if its $30 a year for year 1 to pay for the device and then drops to say $10 or something, but once you’ve had it 12 months or whatever and you’ve paid of the device, I think the price should reflect that. Or there should be a separate option for people willing to pay cash up front for the device and take out a cheaper contract for the app.
I think you’ve probably outlined the business reason by itself:
A) Whoop charges $30/month forever (so $360/year price, again, give or take depending on which plan you pre-bought)
B) Garmin charged ~$100 once for the band (give or take)
So far, Garmin has only really dabbled in subscription models for things that clearly ‘cost’ them money (namely, LTE coverage, emergency response coverage, and satellite messaging coverage). They might do some other stuff in the automotive/marine/aviation markets, but we’ll set those aside for now.
I don’t think though the right conclusion is Garmin only wants to sell $500 watches, as they’ve actually focused quite a bit on more the $200-$400 (but really $300) market with the Venu, VA4, and FR245 type watches.
I’ve gotta believe Garmin is looking at this segment and seeing how to make it work. As everyone has stated, they’ve done the ‘hard’ part in terms of hardware and backend data collection/science/whatever. It really just comes down to putting up a more focused app experience for it (almost like a ‘Pro’ toggle or something that consolidates and focuses). Sure, they’d have to consider offering a band akin to what Whoop has, but realistically that’s trivial for Garmin. They could gut any number of other thin wearable devices they sell with the optical HR sensor and make it band-like and easily cover that market. If there’s one thing that everyone agrees about Garmin, it’s that they’re masters of device reutilization across verticals/markets. A running watch becomes a golf watch becomes an aviation watch becomes a …and on and on. A Garmin Edge bike computer bikes a handheld golf computer, and so on.
When I’ve talked to various investor groups, the key thing that they say keeps most of them hesitant on investing in Whoop rounds – is the fact that Garmin, Fitbit, and to a lesser degree Apple, can basically walk in and do what Whoop does with very little effort (Polar could too tecnologically, but I don’t think they have the marketing power/funding to really compete here).
Ok – maybe I was a little harsh (but then they have rolling out a significant number of $1000 watches as well :D).
In truth, I’d willing to pay more that the historical Vivosmart prices, c.£150 not a problem if Garmin got this right and given a two year product cycle (and in truth I’d probably try to hold on 3 to 4 years two generations), if they got something that competed with Whoop in form factor and features (and echo others that don’t care about a screen), even getting the best Whoop deal at £324 per 18 months, I’d probably be spending £150 on Garmin where I’d likely be spending over £600 on Whoop you can’t help but think that Garmin might not do too badly in that environment.
It’s also interesting that the Garmin forums show some pretty strong interest in a new band – hopefully Garmin get there before my current 4 dies!
Yet another startup that invests every single VC dollar into user acquisition. Paid performance marketing and in this case endorsements/influencer.
The music stops when Facebook and Google can no longer find you the incremental customer, and you never built a profitable business.
Layer the obvious competitive risk on that. I’m sure the VC hope is it makes more sense to be acquired than copied. Maybe. Not Garmin/Firstbeat though. Gotta be Facebook (aka loser of the Fitbit bidding war) or Google.
Maybe Garmin is listening…
It looks very likely this could be a new Vivosmart band or something similar.
[https://fccid.io/IPH-A4095](link to fccid.io) \- New application
[https://fccid.io/IPH-03430](link to fccid.io) \- Vivosmart 4 application
Would be nice to see this have Physio Trueup so it can be worn when you don’t want to wear your watch.
I wonder on how you put your battery pack when you wear it in your boxers or bra 🙂
You have to use the Garmin Body Battery! 🙂
😂
The most interesting news here, I think, is the Sila Nanotech battery, which potentially has uses far beyond fitness sensors:
link to forbes.com
I have 5mo (prepaid) left on my current subscription, and was all set to let it expire. Annoyed that I need to add on another 6+mo (ie spend at least $180) to get my “free” upgrade. Will look to your review to see if it’s worth upgrading when it’s time. So glad to see they reached out to you- fingers crossed it’s improved. (Oh- maybe you could comment on “whoop pro” when you get to it. An extra $12/mo for some “free” accessories?)
I am very disappointed by how Whoop treats those long term customers (“founding members”) who, like me, opted for the “one time fee” for the 3.0 model rather than the subscription model. We were told today that we will have to pay starting September 2023. Hugely disappointing given whoop betrays what it told us when we bought the 3.0: “never pay membership fees”.
link to mobile.twitter.com
link to twitter.com
Stick with your 3.0 and they’ll honour that
Upgrade to a 4.0 and get 2 years free and then start paying
Seems more than reasonable to me
You can’t “stick with 3.0”, everyone was put on the “pay for 4.0” (even if it’s only after 2 years).
Agree. You can not stay on a free plan even with a 3.0 band.
I am a founding member and noticed I now have 23 credits which expires in September 2023.
@whoop what’s up with that?
I removed the Whoop a few months ago in favor of my Oura ring which is about 1,000 times better. But now I will try it again when Whoop sends me the new device in, it says, about seven weeks. The new metrics Whoop says it has perfected could be game changers so I agree with your analysis.
Interesting. What do you find better about Oura? If Whoop has fixed accuracy issues, I am actually considering going from Oura to Whoop.
I’ve find the Oura accurate for sleep, but it’s readiness score and activity tracking are garbage.
This company has no peer-reviewed evidence that anything they claim actually works, and they’re not doing anything actually useful with the data. $30/month for the service is absurd and really just them amortizing the cost of an expensive watch you’re replacing every year or two…for a lot more than the cost of just buying a regular sport GPS activity tracking watch.
I miss my Basis watch. It was the only watch I’ve ever owned that accurately tracked my sleep. The app and website UI were amazing in terms of how they presented data, mostly because it really emphasized showing you trends.
Garmin is, pardon my french, a goddamn dumpster fire of even worse uselessness beyond recording activities The sleep detection and analysis sucks. I see that Whoop is catching flack for poor heartrate monitoring, but come on – I’ve literally never had my Vivoactive 3 (or any other Garmin watch) come even close to properly recording my heartrate via optical sensor. And the presentation of data from Garmin is nowhere near as good as Basis was. With the Basis it was easy to see “huh, the day after my Wednesday workout going back a month or two has always generated a sleep/heartrate impact, I should try dialing it back a bit…oh look, it’s working” because they used a lot of heatmaps where patterns showed themselves readily. With Garmin, you get near-useless line graphs made even more useless by terrible vertical scales.
Garmin also doesn’t offer ANY way to correct or remove data (why is Whoop catching flack for this but not Garmin? You can’t even trim an activity in Garmin Connect!)
“Garmin also doesn’t offer ANY way to correct or remove data (why is Whoop catching flack for this but not Garmin? You can’t even trim an activity in Garmin Connect!)”
You simply delete the activity/workout if need be*. You can’t do that in Whoop.
Plus, in the case of Garmin (or any other platform except Fitbit, but that doesn’t have training load), you can pair a HR strap to get around bad optical HR sensor issues.
*And in fact, if you really need to, you can edit the workout file offload and re-upload it.
You can delete exercises in Garmin Connect, but the bad HR data is still visible in the HR curve, and is still used for calculations like Body Battery, intensity minutes, training load and so on. I‘ve found no way around this so far.
This is not the case very often since Garmin‘s HR tracking has really improved in the last years, but every now and then I can see faulty HR data in DCR analyzer when comparing to another device with HR strap, and I can’t do anything about it.
“Garmin also doesn’t offer ANY way to correct or remove data (why is Whoop catching flack for this but not Garmin? You can’t even trim an activity in Garmin Connect!)”
My guess is that the “Trim Activity” menu item might do just that.
Looks like the 4.0 starts shipping the same day as the Fitbit Charge 5, which also offers strain/recovery data alongside a history of mediocre heart rate sensors.
I should know better by now, but I’m still cautiously optimistic.
My thoughts after the event yesterday, I’m not sure everyone will agree and would be interested to hear your opinions.
Having tried Garmin, FitBit, Apple Watch, WearOS over the last 18 months I keep returning to my Whoop 3.0 for it’s simplicity, comfort and consistency.
The support I’ve seen since I started using Whoop in 2019 is amazing. I’ve fed back on issues to them (ADHD meds really screw up their metrics) and they have been responsive and I’ve actually seen the feedback lead to changes. There support has responded within a hour on most occasions via the in app chat. I’ve still got emails I sent 6 months ago awaiting replies from Garmin!
Whoop 3.0 is also the only wearable that allows me to continue to wear a normal watch and keep my data up to date without having gaps, the on-wrist charging is amazing for this as well. It’s the only fitness tracker that I can sleep with and my skin seems to react to it the least.
Yesterday I was able to extend my subscription for 18 months for what works out at just under $22 a month, get the free upgrade to the Whoop 4.0 and also paid to add the Whoop Pro ($180 as it is charged at $10 a month for the length of your remaining subscription) which I’ve already saved ~50% of the value of it with the 20% discount on the additional straps, battery etc plus the free item I got at sign up.
With the Whoop Pro giving me a free item every 3 months I’ll get 6 items across the 18 months which means I’ll more than get my money back in items. The items all seem to cost either the equivalent or less than comparable brands and I still have straps I brought in 2019 that are fine, which is more than I can say for the straps I’ve brought from Apple & Garmin!
I’m looking at ~$400 every 18 months to keep my device at the latest version plus everything else the Whoop subscription provides and then another $180 which gives me replacement straps, clothes, battery backs etc as I need them. I don’t think I could do this with any other brand in the market at the moment?
The Whoop Any-Wear does seem to be at the high end of the market price wise and it still remains to me seen if the quality lives up to the price. However, you are paying a premium for the ecosystem which you wouldn’t get with other brands.
Can you get Any Wear clothes with the free items from the pro subscription?
yes the new Body lineup of clothes has many items in the list that are available as the free item this quarter, including clothing items that would normally cost about $75. now they do say the “free” lineup of items will change quarter to quarter and hopefully that doesn’t mean they made it “look good” this first quarter to get you to sign up and then from then on the choices are less. right now it seems a decent deal if you are the type to buy lots of bands, clothes or other accessories. if you planned on just using the black band it comes with or buying a few bands up front and thats it then it doesn’t make sense.
Agree parts of the Whoop ecosystem are unique, but there are equally parts of the ecosystem that are lacking to an enormous degree. I track run/bike/swim so need things like power/cadence from a wearable, but frankly my most commonly used “application” is having time on my wrist and getting smartphone notifications to keep phone out of my pocket.
The cost however isn’t close. For 24 months (average device refresh cycle for a junkie) you’re looking at $720 for Whoop Pro. Double an Apple Watch, above Fenix 6 Pro/Sapphire/Solar. 3 year refresh and it gets way worse. Seems you get some bands and branded clothing with the Whoop Pro.
Like most things in life – the monthly payment is not a proxy for total cost – big difference in residual value. A 2 year old $600 Fenix will eBay for $300 in my experience, whereas a used Whoop I’m guessing is worth zero?
Gonna be REAL interesting to see how well Garmin, Apple successfully transition to subscription over time.
Sorry for the dumb questions, but I am not sure if I understand the product correctly.
The Whoop uses mainly HR for estimation strain and recovery. Do I have to manually classify the workout afterwards? (i.e. cycling or swimming, since the HR values mean different things in different sports)
Since HR is very individual, are there any tests I have to do in the different sports to estimate my max HR or threshold HR?
Ray said in the video, strain is almost exclusively workout HR. How does this differ then from the trainingspeaks CTL, etc. stuff?
My use case would be, that I’d like to plan my triathlon training on my own, but need an external voice that tells me when it’s time to rest (before it’s too late 😉 ). Not only based on training (that’s what trainingpeaks does for me already) but on my stressful job as well. Would Whoop be suitable for this?
As far as I can tell the major difference between, TP CTL and Whoop strain is that Whoop strain is 24/7 and includes everything you do in that day, e.g cutting the grass
There’s no threshold type testing in Whoop.
Part of my challenge (in philosophy) with how Whoop does training load, is that everything is on that 0-21 scale. Thus, you can’t easily compare hard efforts, as everything gets grouped at 18-20. Whereas with other training load paradigms that let you add load forever, it’s easier to compare two workouts.
Whoop’s recovery bit however can in theory help you decide whether or not to recover. But we’ll have to see how the 4.0 sensor works out. For example, on my 3.0 sensor, there appears to have been a quiet algorithm change lately on recovery. I’m now managing to pull off 95-97% recovery nights lately, despite blah-sleep, and in some cases, downright exhaustion (for example, coming off the 10-day riding/hiking road-trip). So much exhaustion that I literally went back to sleep for hours one afternoon…the same day it told me I was at 90%+. But again, maybe 4.0 is better there.
“As far as I can tell the major difference between, TP CTL and Whoop strain is that Whoop strain is 24/7 and includes everything you do in that day, e.g cutting the grass”
In practice yes, but only if your HR gets up. That’s a moderate difference to, for example, what Garmin does where strain (via Body Battery, but also the underlying recovery aspects) is impacted by stress simply activity (for example, if you decide to walk 30 miles). In the case of recovery, Whoop wouldn’t actually ever trip the strain for a 30-mile ‘casual’ walk as long as you kept your HR at non-sport levels. Whereas Garmin would get rather upset at you Body Battery wise.
I’m going to take a guess that over time Whoop will close those gaps…
That’s not what I find, working from home I try to go for a 2 mile walk every morning, after that walk my strain is roughly 4.5, if I don’t go for that walk … it’s about 0.2 (at the time of starting work at 9)
Whoop doesn’t pick it up as an activity, but the strain is definitely there
Ray, Whoop did change their recovery algorithm in late May/early June. They moved from the single HRV measurement during the last “SWS” sleep to using an average HRV from all measurements while sleeping, with the later sleep (“SWS” sessions) having a higher weight. This should provide a more reliable recovery assessment than the somewhat random single measurement (no wearable is more than 50% accurate concerning sleep staging).
yes,
and isn’t the most accurate that a wearable can be 80%? as gold standard polysomnography requires two independent observers to agree on the remaining 20%?
So this all brings us back to 1-3 minutes, waking HRV readings as the most accurate measure, right?
“Ray, Whoop did change their recovery algorithm in late May/early June. ”
Yeah, I’ve been chatting with them a bit lately about that and including the night’s worth of HRV data (along with other metrics too now).
Though, I have a funny feeling some other changes occurred in the last few weeks. Something 100% shifted for me, compared to 20 months of data prior.
Personnally I think the subscription rate is way to high, but for years I have suffered from bouts of sudden extreme exhaustion, which has held me back in like and cycling, as a T1 diabetic I’ve believed it was linked to this, had full blood works done, nothing amiss, I thought I would try the Whoop on a year subscription, which was ouch, but wouldn’t have been if it was ., say a new desk for turbo training, and I have found it life changing, small changes to my habits, have lead to me feeling better every day, increasing my ftp (ages 51) by a reasonable amount to a new life high,and I am excited, about going forward as I think it has open possibilites
I don’t find it inaccurate (way way better than the piece of rubbish on my other wrist that is the Fenix 5) and on a 4hour ride this weekend, it was spot on on the average heart rate, and 2 beats out on the max, but that is just one persons opinion (bit like rays)
I’m hoping that after a year, I will have learnt enough to not have to pay for the subscription fee (so I can buy aother power meter that won’t improve my health or fitness in the same way)
Also pleasing that Whoop are sending out 4’s to people currently using the 3
Basis B1 device is still my favorite wearable…. years ahead of its time.
Indeed, though, we probably shouldn’t forget that the workout HR on the Basis B1 was horrifically bad. As in, the data makes Whoop 3.0 look like the most accurate gold-standard HR sensor ever created.
Where Basis was so good was the display of all the other data. So good.
For those that want to slide down that memory lane, inclusive of the HR dumpster fire, I give you this: link to dcrainmaker.com
Second that, it couldn’t even handle walking. The HR was all over the place. But their data presentation, sleep analysis, and (healthy) habit building like consistent sleep schedule was amazing. It’s an absolute shame what Intel did to the company.
adidas micoach smart run
glory days! almost had it all back in 2013? and didn’t look too shabby
I thought I was the only one who liked that product! Andy Murray yelling at me to run faster was great!
nope, there were just the two of us.
hence its demise 😉
I loved the Smart Run. It was way ahead of it’s time.
I hope Garmin is listening to their customers and answer with a device similar to the Whoop 4.0 and Fitbit Charge 5. Clearly both these companies see the demand for a 24/7 band that will deliver a solid sleep and recovery metric.
Garmin is clearly winning the watch game but is missing out on a second device (whoop) for many Forerunner and Fenix users and the activity band users (Fitbit).
I bet Garmin is waiting as eagerly as all of us for Ray’s review!!!
Plus one to this – I have a Vivosmart 4 but at this point, with none of the new features like sleep tracking and adaptive exercise recovery (like on my 945) coming to that device, and no replacement for four years, it kinda feels like Garmin doesn’t care about bands anymore and is more interested in selling Marq series watches and competing with Apple rather than meeting this demand.
For me, I don’t even care if the band doesn’t have a screen and just since their quietly, without looking too clunky, as a pure data gather device that just hands off to my phone. I’d personally like to stay within the Garmin ecosystem – I think there are benefits here – and I could live with the clunky analytics in connect if Garmin just produced a decent looking band that did all the underlying recovery/ stress tracking of their newer top end devices, with some beefed up overnight/ HRV monitoring (it would be helpful if they’d push the morning HRV data to “HRV for training” for me but that might be asking too much.
I have found things like body battery really interesting recently as I have been recovering from a major injury and surgery and its been really helpful. Whilst I have been feeling good as the training I have been doing has been pretty limited compared to usual training loads, body battery in particular, has been particularly helpful in pointing out that there is a lot of underlying strain on my body.
Why didn’t Whoop just buy hardware from somebody who already has that side figured out?
They have all the money in the world through a bunch of (big name) investors so I assume the game here is to build a billion dollar company. At that point there are only three businesses in the space who could go for the takeover and I assume Apple would be the logical choice.
I mean I hope Apple would do it BUT…
1. what prevents ANY company from just building their own strain / recovery metrics in house. Apple could afford to employee health scientists who can create these kind of algorithms.
2. i think Whoop is all about the “deep dive” into the metrics and we all know Apple likes to dumb things down and make things simple. Whoop will tell you you have recovered “67%” but I could see a similar Apple system saying “Recovery: Happy Smile Emoji!” instead. that doesn’t sound like something you need to aquire at $1+ billion to do.
I do wish my Apple Watch could do what whoop does.
Try out the Athlytic app for Apple Watch 😉 Does exactly what you want
Whoa- Athlytic looks like it does everything whoop does for $25/yr?! What’s the catch?
One of the best features of Whoop is the fact that you never need to take the band off. My Apple watch certainly doesn’t have that option (at least right now).
The catch is that it’s buggy and the algorithms are a black box. It’s emulating Whoop in the “arbitrarily weighting things to give the user a score they will get attached to, but doesn’t actually mean that much.”
I had issues with sleep inputs (garmin watch and oura) where it just added my sleep times together, for example.
Here is a link to a NY Times article on the battery tech. link to nytimes.com
I think the health monitor marketing is a little deceptive. They state Live HR and other metrics but from all the marketing material it is simply Live HR plus Last Nights metrics for everything else. I don’t think it is constantly checking HRV, Blood Ox, Temp etc throughout the day. Its one of the way these devices can have longer battery life. I wish it did but I highly doubt it does.
Yes, most likely just inputs to estimate sleep stages and recovery, not 24/7 readings.
Definitely interested in whether or not they are tracking HRV more than once a day with the Whoop 4.0. Being able to HRV shop is a bit ridiculous. I also have some restlessness during the night so it will often need to have an adjusted end to the sleep and have had some really odd results.
Been using Whoop since Jan ’17 (founding member status). Agree with your experience with 3.0 and prior. I tend to view the accuracy issue through the lens of any wrist based HR being not very accurate. Although similar to scale readings, as long as the Whoop data is consistent then I can understand my effort and recovery day to day. I’m all for better accuracy and data and looking forward to 4.0. Appreciate your reviews.
I can’t see how 30$ per month is worth it instead of getting a Garmin 745 or 945 and getting nearly the same advice on similar training recommendations for about 300$ with no subscription being needed… and you get a screen too, how cool is that?
Plus you can sell the watch after 2-3 years and still have some money in your pocket. If you stop paying Whoop basically you get a (lightweight) paperweight…
The buying versus renting thing has logical/mathematical aspects to it, but there are softer issues at play as well. Initial spend tends to sway buyers more than total cost of ownership. I think Whoop is doing the right sort of marketing to support a membership model.
For the moment it appears that everyone that wants to try their solution has no choice but to subscribe even if they aren’t enthusiastic about the payment mechanism. They are relatively new and different and for buyers that are bored with traditional offerings that is enough to go with. The buttons & menus on my FR945 are fine in my view but I know people that just don’t want that. Wearing something unobtrusive and brining up an app occasionally is a different user experience.
As a UX designer I couldn’t agree more. I was just sharing my version but there’ll always be people who don’t like wearing a watch, but also want a similar solution to a Garmin watch. For now, this seems to be the only similar alternative in quality standards.
At $30/month it had better either compatible with 3rd party devices and services and/or the very best in the business.
I get a feeling it will be neither. And that’s a great shame as they have some good ideas and I really don’t mind paying a monthly fee for a service (it has to be great though).
Ugghh, if only Polar could get (back) into this general health tracking and sport space. Only this time with something a bit less bullky.
“Whoop reached out to me..”
Yes OK. Im sure their entire marketing and R&D department said ‘we must make sure we reach out to him and only him…’
Wind your neck in son ffs.
“Yes OK. Im sure their entire marketing and R&D department said ‘we must make sure we reach out to him”
You must be new around here – welcome! But yes, that’s how it works.
(Note however, I *never* ask for exclusivity – I think it’s a good thing for others to have different viewpoints.)
“Literally, nobody has managed to show me a single good hard/interval/etc workout with accurate comparative HR data.”
I posted one a while back on reddit here: link to reddit.com
Direct link to the graph: link to imgur.com
The HR data with a bicep band tracks well all the time for me compared to a chest strap.
While that’s not a horrific one, I wouldn’t exactly say that’s good either.
You’re right, it’s not stellar. A few points worth making (all considering whoop on bicep):
– I wouldn’t use it to look at HR in real time to adjust training.
– It’s good enough that the average and the calculated strain are close enough, so if you’re not using HR for training in real time…then it’s fine post-hoc for strain, looking at trends in average HR at a given pace.
– I get much much worse data for training from the Fenix 5 optical sensor on the wrist (likely, I can’t get it tight enough).
– With the bicep strap, I don’t get artifacts or “phantom” workouts like you did gardening.
I’m curious – is Whoop always intended to be a secondary fitness tracker? Sure, it tracks the data (reliably or not – that’s beside my point now), but as long as it doesn’t have any workout guidance – you are kinda required to have a device that can do that, which kinda defeats the idea of having a Whoop in the first place.
I think it’s intended to be a fitness tracker for people who don’t own a Garmin.
A great example is probably my brother-in-law. He falls more into the gym camp (once a personal instructor) than the running camp. He runs 1-2x a week, a 5K at all-out pace (and, does so pretty well). So he’s not going to go out and buy a Fenix 6 or something. He literally, no kidding, has a teal FR35 he uses for his runs. And he’s totally good with that.
But, he’d have good value with recovery/guidance with something like Whoop that he can wear all the time.
So what you are saying is that if you own a garmin watch for running which is quite high end, you don’t need a whoop? That’s a question I am pondering.
You don’t gain anything by adding a whoop to the watch? I admit if the whoop 4.0 turns out to be accurate, I will consider it to have an all day measurement without the need to wear my garmin all the time. And for sleep, it will be more comfortable and with the haptic will be able to act as an alarm!
> You don’t gain anything by adding a whoop to the watch?
It’s the other way around – you kinda have to add something to a whoop that has structured workouts, as whoop itself doesn’t have them.
But I get Ray’s point of view. Not everybody uses / needs a tracker that has all the required structured workouts.
For “rap data in, crap data out” don’t you have to make sure you’re looking at the right data? In that it seems like whoop metrics are HRV based so need to know if the HRV is crappy as just showing HR data quality isn’t so useful. I give you that HR data is much easier to look at and see when off as directly comparing HRV could be tricky. So was thinking if you use a metric based entirely on HRV this comparison could be much easier to do, for example DFA alpha 1. If you pair the whoop over BLE and a polar h10 over BLE and compare the resulting DFA alpha 1 measurements and the number of artifacts you can much more easily tell if the data going in is crap or not
This assumes you do the alpha 1 calculation the same for both. Assuming you don’t have multiple cell phones this might be tricky as you’d need to save the HRV data. Garmin devices can do that but you need to make sure they pair over BLE and not Ant. Though I don’t know if Garmin’s BLE implementation is the same as on phones in that if a data packet is missed does it get retransmitted as that is why BLE is better then Ant+ on cell phones, no lost data
Whoop measures HRV only during the night to calculate Recovery, but for Strain it uses HR, that’s the only metric that’s is broadcasted AFAIK.
According to Whoop website the new sleep coach as 3 alarms now:
EXACT TIME – a regar alarm
MEET YOUR SLEEP GOAL – need 10h to Peak so alarm goes off after that many hours of sleep
WAKE UP IN THE GREEN – alarm goes off when Recovery reaches green (65%?), probabaly some minimum hours so as not to wake up people too soon…
Anyway was hoping they had a Smart Alarm option, where it tried to wake me up during a light sleep stage (and before a predefined max time).
“need 10h to Peak so alarm goes off after that many hours of sleep”
I’d love to know what portion of their population manages 10hrs of sleep per night…
Does Garmin or any other wearable have the “Smart Alarm” option to wake you up during a light sleep stage? I’ve tried some apps on the phone (no additional device) but they seemed questionable.
Don’t know of any wearable with a smart Alarm, only apps like you said, but it would be a nice addition…
@Ray yeah would love for them to share some usage statistics. In my case it would be impossible to sleep for 10 hours straight, I would always wake up long before that, even if there were no interruptions (kids, etc).
Probably end up missing your race because you overslept.
What about putting it on the cat? Ours seems to get around 20 hours sleep a day
Better use a bicep band on the cat, otherwise it will get a 20 strain just by scratching behind the ears all day…
As a runner I am trying to figure out how I could use Whoop along with my Garmin and Stryd. How are you able to know during a long run if you are over reaching your recommended strain with no screen on the whoop or septic feedback?? With my Stryd, there are data fields in the CIQ store that show my power on my Garmin screen. I feel that’s a missing piece to the Whoop as well. Any comment Ray or others?
I think you can only have visibility about the activity Strain during the activity itself, if you bring your phone with you (yeah I know not optimal).
But even that will probably not be enough, because it’s difficult to tell how much that activity strain will impact your day strain (they are not the same). That’s one of the points Ray touches on his review.
Example: your day so far is a 10.3 strain, you go for a strenuous run of 16.7 strain, how much will be your accumulated daily strain? The scale is logarithmic (maxed out at 21), so your daily strain of 10.3 plus the run strain of 16.7 will give… no idea (around 18??).
Thanks for the reply Rui. I just hope Ray is testing a Garmin Vivosmart 5 band or something similar with all the new devices Garmin has FCC applications for. 😉
I sent mine back having ready DCR’s review and having had some really funky readings. I really like the platform and the concept but will wait for DCR’s review of the 4.0. Currently using a garmin for measuring all things workout (except bike rides) and rest. Would be good to know when the review is planned.
It was due out this week- has anyone got one yet? Also with Tom Daley promoting it – wonder how the accelerometers cope with a 30m drop, followed by a short deceleration?
Colin
360$/year
Do your math, for a 2 years memb. you are buying a Fenix
Shows $324 up front for 18 months for me. Which gets it down to a $432 cost for 24 months assuming you renewed at the longest term with no other discounts if available. Not bad assuming it fits your needs and is good quality data. I will be waiting for the full review and some user reviews.
That’s always the problem with subscriptions in the long run, not worth it compared with a one-off payment (where you still even have a residual/resale value after 2 years). Anyway, you can also subscribe for a longer period (18 months is 18 USD/month) and there are several referral codes around that will get you to 15 usd a month (roughly 360 usd for 2 years).
If you aren’t into running/cycling full term and no need for structured workouts, then it could be a good option for strain/recovery AS LONG IT IS ACCURATE! ymmv…
Hi DCR,
Hope all is well – when do you think you’ll be able to test the new Whoop 4.0?
The offering they is good – well expensive, but good – only in the event the accuracy issue you have pointed out is resolved.
Thank you for all your work!
Latest from Whoop (as of last night) is probably next week. Sounds like there’s some across the board delays on 4.0 units shippng.
Na
Still no integration with Apple or any other platforms?
Correct, aside from sync to Strava, TrainingPeaks. and Equinox+.
When do you expect the review to land ?
Not sure. Each week they e-mail to note a unit should be on the way early the next week. Thus far, that pattern has maintained.
Looking forward to giving it a whirl, and confirming when it does arrive.
Reminds me of going skiing- they ALWAYS say expecting snow ❄️ next week – never happens
I have seen a post on Reddit where someone has already received their Whoop 4 (with a picture so its not a fake).
Looking at that picture, I’m going to call fake. Well, not fake, but not 4.0.
My reasoning:
A) Only shows precisely aligned top-side, and not any angle of camera at all, seems awfully strange.
B) If you’re going to post one picture to Reddit claiming you have a device, to a forum that’s hyper-excitd about it, and devouring every post about it, why would you post just the strap portion, and not the pod itself?
C) Claims ordering one week after announcement and just got it? Everyone ordered minutes after announcement and nobody has it yet.
D) No sponsored athletes actually have units yet
E) No media has units yet
F) Did I mention why post a single photo of just the fabric strap, perfectly top-down as to not see the width or any portion of the pod)?
G) Notice how the grey strap slightly indents in at what should be the peak of the pod? My guess is there’s noting there. It’s just empty fabric. A pod-filled Whoop won’t intend in, because the fabric is pushed firm against the pod’s case
Again, maybe I’m wrong. But till theypost the other side of it, it’s just trolling.
Good call. Didn’t look that closely. Will take your word for it for sure.
There’s a more recent post with several side by side photos… So at least 1 guy got it by now. 😀
Hi Ray. Given that “real people” are now receiving their Whoop 4’s I would have hoped you’d have received yours by now?
Any update on the new 4 and the sensor accuracy issues that affected the 3?
Stil waiting. Supposedly this week.
OK great thanks. Look forward to reading your thoughts!
Anything new ?
I am guessing you have all seen Beth Skwarecki’s post on the Whoop Reddit that she received a 4.0. She has more detailed pictures that seem legit.
Hey Ray – make sure when you get yours you try it out with the bicep band as well as the wrist. I got my 4.0 today and did a first ride with it on my wrist – not great outcomes…
link to reddit.com
Not a good sign.
Indeed, I primarily use the bicep band.
Interesting results – thanks for sharing! As with the past 4+ weeks, still waiting.
Here’s my results with the bicep band – link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
Caveat for the bicep band data, twice I forgot to restart my Fenix (hence the random no data areas – I blame staying up late for baseball playoffs!) and then my Edge decided to completely crash at one point. I would say the data is more encouraging but still not A+. Definitely a lot closer on average heart rate, so I hope a few more months of firmware updates on the new hardware and we’ll be in a good spot. I’m going to try cinching the bicep band a hair tighter and see how it goes…
(Original results w/ Whoop on the wrist here – link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
Setting aside the own-goal gaps ;), the dropouts aren’t ideal – which seem tied to bursts or sprints. I presume this is outside?
Ugh tell me about it 🙂 Yes this was outside, in semi-rural Virginia. I’m going to run back the same ride I did with it on the wrist some time this week (I knew I should have just bought an annual DCR Analyser pass lol) but with the Whoop on the bicep. Then I feel like I have done what I can, and I’m sure you’ll go a few layers deeper with your testing. FWIW I have now updated the Whoop 4.0 firmware three times – so they’re clearly making updates over there.
Alright, last try. Here’s a totally clean ride, same setup as above but no own goals this time 🙂 Some parts of the track look so so much better, then others are really disappointing.
Here’s a link to the two images (DCRA tracks and then from the Whoop app) – link to imgur.com
Here’s my comparison of the Whoop 4.0 bicep band vs. Scoshe Rhythm+2.0. Both sensors were worn on my upper left arm bicep area under a black sleeve (i.e. minimizing risk of exterior light and providing compression on both). I mountain bike in Phoenix, AZ which is very rocky, so wrist bands are virtually useless.
I think it’s a relatively fair comparison of two arm based HRMs. The Whoop definitely still lags up and down and does some random stuff every now and then. I don’t look at these things that often though, so I’d love to hear Ray or anyone else’s take.
link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
I’m surprised to see such good mimicking of the two for mountain biking (no matter the location). Of course, a bit hard to tell without a chest reference (which can also be imperfect), but given how close those two are, and that the Scosche R2 is generally pretty good, that bodes well here.
Last comparison for me. Whoop 4.0 bicep band on right bicep this time (gave me a blister on my left arm as it does sometimes) vs. Scosche Rhythm+2.0 on left bicep on a TrainerRoad indoor VO2Max session:
link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
I’d say this one is very solid for the most part. And in the context of what Whoop needs the measurements for, it’ll be pretty close to spot on. Again, assuming the Scosche is also spot-on (which, it likely is if indoors on a bicep).
Channeling my inner Ray in the name of science. With chest strap this time. I felt funny with 3 head units and 3 HRM, but that’s an off day for Ray :).
MTB ride in rocky Phoenix, AZ. Scoche Rhythm+2.0 on left bicep, Whoop 4.0 on right bicep, Viiiiva 4iiii HRM on chest strap (my Garmin chest strap died, so this is what I had). Power meter got confused b/w two head units, but otherwise the data looks clean. One note I mentioned before, both arm HRM were under black sleeve elbow pads. I think this helps the data since both HRMs are under light compression, so they don’t bounce around as much.
link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
I think that’s it for me for now.
P.S. These are the elbow pads if anyone’s wondering: link to amazon.com
Woah, that looks crazy goodindeed.
Thanks for being both a DCR Supporter, and a DCR Analyzer user, that’s awesome!
(Oh…and I added a dozen extra sets and a months of extra time to use it, given how much you’ve shared here!)
Wow, thanks Ray! That’s very kind of you, you didn’t have to do that. Happy to support you in any way I can for all you do here.
Okay, family and an injury interrupted testing, but here’s one new test. No chest strap again, I should have that on Wednesday.
This is with the new Whoop firmware update, so this is firmware: 41.8.0.1417.0.4.0.
This is again on the MTB, but the single speed this time, so a little more spikes on the HR. I did switch the Whoop to the left arm with the Scoche on the right. Again under the elbow pads. Looks pretty decent. I really wonder how much the elbow pads are helping in terms of compression and blocking out light, but I always ride the MTB with them, so not an issue for me. If you were to wear it on the wrist, maybe their swim band (hydrosleeve) would help with compression.
link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
link to youtube.com
I watched this on youtube. Issues with holding a charge and length of time to charge. There have been seveal updates already so perhaps these will be addresed.
HR review during a crossfit workout with w4 on wrist starts around 12 minute Mark. I won’t keep you in suspense. – bad.
Whoop 4 problem with deep and rem sleep –
When I used Whoop 3 deep and rem sleep made up 33-43 % of my total sleep. I have had version 4 for 2 sleeps. While th etotal sleep was about the same as I am used to rem + deep sleep has only been 6% an 13% for the two nights. I also slept with an older Fitbit the last week and my total rem + deep has been the same each night so the problem must be with Whoop 4.
ANyone else had this problem?
Here is my frustration with Whoop 4. While running the hr is more erratic than with my Garmin watch. That doesn’t bother me so much as I rely on the garmin for the 40-70 minutes I run. The rest of the day the heat rate shows little spikes while I am not doing anything strenuous. Now I know if I walk it is higher than if I sit but I have taken that into account. I looked at a few other people’s daily graphs and mine is a bit more inconsistent. That could be due to the fact I have skinny wrists that are a bit concave shaped on the top.
So, I put the whoop in the boxer shorts yesterday. The graph looked more like my Garmin during a run. However, later in the day, whoop showed that I took a 3 hour nap. During the time I was not lying down – I was preparing and eating dinner, reading, watching tv. I got ahold of customer support and after a few hours their advice was just to delete the nap.
Sleep seems to work well with whoop on the wrist, at least total time asleep. I can’t be sure of stages as I have nothing else to compare it to. But wearing it in the boxer shorts it said I was in bed for 14 hours and slept over 10 last night. I was in bed for less than 10 hours and due to a sick dog had a lousy night’s sleep – I would guess close to 7.5.
I contacted support but have not gotten an answer after several hours. My only thought is to wear it on my wrist, use the garmin for exercise, not caring about strain score, and just using whoop for sleep. Not what I wanted but the seems the way it is.
Yeah, I didn’t have great luck with the boxer shorts trying them for one night of sleep (data was waaaay off). Same as you, way overcommit. I’ve also had sleep overages when wearing it on bicep. But on wrist seems fine for sleep data.
I had a chat with them today about it, and they said that for many people, they’re seeing good to equal luck with the gym shorts (or whatever you call them) as bicep location for running and cycling. I haven’t tried those yet, maybe this weekend.
They’re still working on items though, everything I hear basically sounds like 4.0 is mostly in a beta state right now, with Body alongside it.
I had good luck running with pod in my boxers. By good I mean similar to my Garmin and fairly consistent heart rate while doing a steady run.
Has anybody else noticed that the Garmin Body Battery score and the Whoop Recovery Score are now often identical (I’d estimate 80% of the time)? I’m wondering if Garmin changed their algorithm to more closely match and compete with Whoop. Also, has anybody been able to figure out if there is a dependable mathematical relationship between the Whoop Strain Score and Garmin Body Battery drain throughout the day?
Interesting, I haven’t seen that. It’s pretty different.
Also, keep in mind Whoop’s recovery score doesn’t change throughout the day from load, whereas Body Battery does.
What I’ve noticed is that my Body Battery when I wake up (or shortly after as Body Battery score may climb a few points in the first hour of the day) is nearly identical. I’d be happy to send you a few weeks of data if you’re curious.
I can’t wait for your review about the Whoop 4. I work in a hospital laboratory and I’m not allowed any watch, jewelry and/or other device on my hands and wrists.
I would love to wear a tracker/sports watch/… and a Whoop on my upper arm seems to be about the only option. Any other suggestions are welcome.
Now using a Polar Verity Sense only when working out but would love to get more insight in the rest of my habits and lifestyle.
I just got my WHOOP 4.0 and I’m having battery issues with it. Look at the Reddit thread, it’s not just me. I think they might’ve rushed this to production…
Does anyone know of a way to cancel a 4.0 order?
I placed my order the day it was announced and its still showing 4 to 6 weeks for shipment. Reviews don’t look great and I don’t feel like waiting for an average solution.
I can seem to find anything on their site to explain the cancelation policy.
Thanks!
I had issues with Whoop 3.0 and Apple Watch being as accurate HR sensor as my Wahoo chest strap. The new 4.0 appears to match my Wahoo after giving it a few side by side tests while on a bike trainer. I am also noticing that the processing speed for the sleep the night before is much quicker than the 3.0 was. So far I am happy with the product. It is great for understanding sleep and recovery. I do not rely on it for activity tracking.
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Loved my Fitbit sleep tracking, but no ANT+ compatibility was a dealbreaker for those high-intensity efforts as mentioned here.
Now I’m on a fairly recent Garmin, but the sensor lens is looking busted, so thought I’d try a 4.0.
Did a super hard spin class today, staying near max HR of 180 for 25 straight minutes. After editing the effort to March times, Whoop registered my avg HR 23bpm lower than Garmin did w/ANT+ chest strap.
To be fair, I’m only on day 3 with the 4.0, so it’s still “learning” in theory, and also “sample size of 1” for this workout isn’t great either, but it’s definitely disappointing.
Guess this all begs the question: Whar platforms get as nerdy as Whoop with their sleep/metrics/KPI’s, yet supports ANT+ to get the workouts right??
So glad I found this community btw. Great review and comforting to see many others are in the same boat as I am…