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I’m DC RAINMAKER…
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I don’t know that I see that steering feature to be a plus. On a real bike, you wouldn’t turn the handlebars like that, you’ll use body English and lean into the turn. With a winter of Zwift, I already find some bad habits working their way into my riding (not looking far enough ahead, not paying attention to traffic, etc). Can’t wait to launch myself over the bars trying to execute a gentle turn at speed.
Can you turn the steering off?
Right now you can’t, though the founder talked a bit during the livestream on everything being a bit of a ‘let’s see how it goes’ sort of thing. For example, sensitivity being one of those things.
Hey Matthew!
Patrick from The Rivet here :).
That’s interesting about developing bad habits. I spent 24 hours on the virtual bike and successfully rode to work the next day though, so it luckily didn’t effect me too much!
But to address your point – right now you can’t turn the steering off. In time that will definitely be added though as many have asked for it! I can see a scenario in which some ‘game modes’ require this ^^ ‘real’ steering where you have total freedom over the road, some use ‘lanes’ you can move between by steering, and some keep you fixed on a pre-defined path.
I am actually going to be experimenting with the lane steering idea pretty soon (once some of the bugs and UX issues are fixed). I’m going to livestream myself testing it, get feedback and then release it for the community to try ASAP. My approach to this is going to be super open and community driven. I’ve set up a subreddit for people to keep up to date if you ever hang out over there : reddit.com/r/therivet .
Cheers!
Will be interesting to see if they get to the point of a Garmin Connect IQ app in place of the phone.
“Sorry nor sorry”, but I’m still waiting for the MARQ review…
+1
By Friday, that’s the plan. Hell or high water.
Unless I get distracted.
I guess you didn’t say which Friday…
I love my Quad Lock, just wished it liked my square stems.
whats up with the swaying butt?
Saddle’s obviously too high if he’s getting that kind of pelvic rotation. ;-)
Looks horrible. ?
I actually bought the animations from someone but somehow didn’t notice the hip rocking at the time ( think I must’ve only looked from the font). I then tried to fix it before realising the documentation for 3dsmax (3d modelling + animation software) is thousands of pages long. So it is what it is for the moment I’m afraid!
I find it funny that we have steering, in the real world when riding above a few kph you actually counter steer to go around corners (steer right to turn left), this is so natural most folk are not even aware of this, bet they don’t implement that as part of the steering, my turbo bike still sits on the original Tacx steering rig (Tacx iMagic) as I’ve no room to get a front wheel on my bike, used it once in Tacx, switches steering off and never used it again #WasteOfTime
I agree with you. Steering will be a tough one to simulate. You countersteer to initiate a lean, then slightly steer back into the corner as you lean. As you say, the countersteer is practically imperceptible when you do it, but fundamental to negotiate turns. In my mind, the leaning and lateral acceleration are the sensations that you’d want to replicate from the real world, but I don’t see how you’d accomplish that any current stationery trainer. The idea of steering your bars in the direction of your turn to track a roadway seems a bit gimmicky if your goal is hyperrealism. I’d be fine with it as a tool to choose your path at a junction, but I don’t see it playing out to negotiate curves in a roadway.
…at least until we’re riding on hexapod simulators :)
Hey Mike!
It’s Patrick here. Thanks for your comment :).
If you read above I made some comments about steering in The Rivet that might interest you. You points are well taken though – steering is not for everyone (which I have definitely learned in all the feedback I’ve received in the launch). At risk of promising everything to everyone I think in time we can have our cake and eat it – an option to steer and an option to not. We’re not building a rocket to the moon here it’s just a video game!
I also agree with you that if we are to make steering a ‘thing’ it has to be executed absolutely perfectly. What we have now is just a v1. If we win you round I’ll know we’ll have nailed it!
Who wants to steer and brake on a trainer? What a nuisance.
Jon Mayfield in the latest Zwiftcast discussed an almost identical steering method that is already hidden in the code for the Zwift companion app. It never got turned on as they had issues with sensor drift
Jon did discuss it, but he distinguished between two types of steering. One would be more like the ability to adjust position on the road but never leave the road. So you’d use it tuck in, pull out to pass or dice for the gutter. But you couldn’t leave the road. I could see that being useful. The other sort – steering to actually stay on the road st all feels like too much.
Strong NO from me on steering. Has no place if you are using these apps for real training.
It’s a little known fact that before stationary trainers no one could actually train outside. Having to control their bike prohibited it. Glad we live in a time where real training is possible.
I like the idea of steering, but I want to see it taken in a more fun direction (see what I did there?). Steering, to me, lends itself to gamifying indoor cycling more. Doing a race against faster opponents? Block them! This could allow real race tactics to come into play. Drafting off your opponents or rotating through a pace-line actually becomes a skill.
I could see this having really cool applications for mountain bike courses too, where the line you take can have a drastic affect on your speed (including hitting an obstacle and coming to a dead stop), plus hair-pin switchbacks.
Could also be used for some Mario Kart style action. Only have a green turtle shell (not the red heat-seeking one), you need to put a little english on it in order to hit your opponent by swirving a bit. Draft behind someone, and use a feather to jump and over-take them at the last second before the finish line.Get a star and go crazy swirving around and knocking opponents off their bikes. The possibilities are endless.
This is the kind of thinking which inspired me to build the steering in the way I have. I’m not quite aiming for Mario Kart, but to really increase the immersiveness and tactics required in indoor riding.
I think one can get a lot of the tactical dimensions of steering from a ‘lane’ approach where you can mover your character laterally across the road to overtake, draft etc. But you do miss out on the technique of steering and the feeling that there is actually a game there to get good at. I know that doesn’t appeal to everyone but it certainly does to me (and I guess you!).
Thanks for your feedback, love the mountain bike idea! There are actually some sections on the track where if you go off road you are allowed into the wilderness, you’ll have to play to find them ;)
I used to comment at Zwift about once a year about making something more Mario-Kart like, but gave up because they wanted to be more serious. A “training platform”, not a “video game”. We’ve got a couple of old stair-steppers that let you compete with tanks and planes and snowmobiles against the person next to you, and it’s the greatest thing in the world for exercise. If you brought in some MK tactics, or even a separate mode with goofy weapons and physics, I’d pay whatever monthly fee you want in a heart-beat. I cycle and run because I enjoy being outdoors. I play video games and VR because they can go beyond reality. To get me to cycle a video game, I’d rather you focus on the “beyond” instead of the recreating reality, because I think you’ll end up doing a better job and I’ll enjoy it more!
That said, this looks awesome! Great job so far, and I’m eagerly looking forward to more! I think the steering is a cool idea, even if it’s wonky for a while. I’ve also got enough old game controllers sitting around, I’d be interested if you went down the path of hacking something together where an old PS3 controller and some rubber bands got me braking and shifting (or, honestly, full control down in aero position…)
What bothers me enormously is the pelvis of the cyclist in the game rotating all the time. Looks horrible and can’t unsee it. Lower that saddle dude!
As someone noted, Zwift has had steering somewhere in the code for a while, but hasn’t bothered to really pursue it. I think a few competitors will try to differentiate with steering and braking and then everyone will realize it’s more of a pain than anything and turn it all off. Who want so crash during a race or training ride just because you didn’t steer quite right. No interest in this whatsoever.
See my reply to Andy J upthread
For a one person that’s really impressive. One thing that stood our for me was the perspective and how the app gave me a really good sense of the current and upcoming gradient of the road. Zwift just doesn’t have that same feeling.
Thank you!
I’m looking forward to trying this. I have a rocker plate and when combined with my Kurt rotate-able riser ring, I can even counter-steer. I wonder if this is enough to simulate a turn?
Would love to hear your feedback once you try! patrick@getontherivet.com
What bothers me is that butt swaying. Looks like dude has his saddle 6 inches too high! LOL
Yes needs to be sorted out ASAP. I commented above how it happened!
I like the graphics for the immersion element where I can zen into feeling like I’m actually outdoors riding.
Pressing a button on the phone to slow down, not so much. I can’t imagine how the steering would feel realistic either.
Like other replies, the needs to be a steering/braking off setting.
Hey Happy Runner!
Points taken. If you read above I’ve commented above some ideas for the steering (including the ability to turn it off) which you might be interested in.
I’d be interested in you giving it a go though and hearing what you think. It’s quite difficult to describe how it feels, but I certainly think it adds immersion.
Graphics is great..and better than zwift but we have also to keep in mind that with zwift there are often hundreds of zwifter on screen..and for a gpu this is a huge increase of work.
Still in beta at the moment, but Veloton will have similar features and does look great – link to facebook.com
Indeed, if, and it’s a big IF, it can ever get out of beta. We’ve been about a year at this point.
I think they’ve got massive potential, but right now they need to decide whether they want to be a hardware company or a software company.
For those using this program that have their handlebars locked perhaps steering with their smartphone instead of The Handlebar might be useful.
Not good if you have a Kickr Climb, but then again, most of those seem to be back in the factory these days.
Totally unrelated to the topic of the post, I wonder why you use only one rubber band to fix your Quadlock mount. In case it fails, the whole mount goes on the fly. With a second rubber band, you have a backup.
Haha…I was wondering who might notice.
I use the Quadlock day to day on my commuting/cargo bikes, but not my main road bike. So I only use it there when I’m doing something like testing drone stuff or this functionality or what-not.
So I just stole it off one of our commuter bikes and was lazy with the bands.
Steering and braking is stupid and not a positive differentiator wrt Zwift. If that is the primary motivation (and I don’t think that is is), then this idea is a fail. Now, a legit alternative to Zwift. Yes, that would be something to support – if Zwift does not provide what you need. I know that lots of folks love the races and social aspect, but, really, I don’t care about that. I want a state-of-the-art training approach that *also* has interesting graphics/worlds to take my mind off the suffering. Yes, I am a Sufferfest subscriber (and former Zwift and former Trainerroad). The workouts of Sufferfest are great – but I wish they had the integrated approach of Trainerroad. And the adaptable visuals of Zwift. Ain’t nothing perfect, for me, yet. BUT, Sufferfest has useful training tools (you need to be involved in making choices) and a distracting storyline (but a bit repetitive, if you ride frequently enough). It’s unclear to me how this new competitor has a differentiating set of features that will compel folks to quit their existing subscriptions to shift – or add a new subscription to what they are already paying for.
Ray, thanks for posting this. As one who has played a bit on Swift, I must say that this seems more appealing on a different level. I find swift to lack any sense of subtlety on the pedals.
As somone already noted steering opens up the opportunity for group riding skills with a wind direction indicator. Teaching folks to move to the leeward side of a pack before a direction change to stay out of the wind would be really fun to play with. I’ll shoot Patrick a note with some other ideas for ways to incorporate riding games in ways that just don’t exist – yet.
Nice work Patrick! I appreciate what you have done here. I’m currently recovering from a bad accident (#brokenfemurclub) and won’t be on the bike for a while (3 months), but as soon as I am able I’ll jump on and have a go.
This looks to be a fair way behind the Veleton game which has steering, braking etc already in it. Is that the case or am I missing something unique about this one?
DC
Will you be doing a review for the new Cablevision dual F&R camera helmet? They just began selling them.
Thank you
there’s a possibility to use this app with a speed&cadence sensor instead a power meter?
Looks promising! The steering idea seems good to me because using Zwift for casual rides, you end up going into a robot mode of pedal pedal and often I find myself staring at the ceiling or floor because the interaction beyond making sure your cadence is good is nil. You actually look forward to the next turn event so you can do SOMETHING. Steering might be a good cure for that, you wont just sit stationary for hours on end, you’ll need to interact.
Though, those doing training intervals, I could see wanting to turn off the steering and have it in autopilot mode. Training you’re already focused on many things to keep the mind occupied. Cadence, breathing patterns, drinking, begging for the next recovery, etc.
Anyways, what I’d really like to see is being able to navigate a small town or city instead of just long winding country roads. In time I guess.
Looks like it could be really interesting. Steering on a Neo with a phone on the bars though ? hope sensitivity can be turned way down. I resort to stuffing an old narrower form factor iPhone 4 I was given between the spokes of the front wheel and zip tied the front brake to stop creep when I last tried steering successfully.