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I hadn’t thought about this until right now, but I might end up swapping over to a Zwift Cog on my Kickr… Only because replacing the cog is cheaper than even the SRAM Rival 12-speed cassette that I’ll need when the current one wears out.
Indeed…
…and while you’re at it, check out the costs of a SRAM 13sp XPLR cassette. I could buy an entire Pro team’s worth of Zwift Cog’s for that.
Any rumours when the NEO might get virtual shifting?
Nuttin’.
Isn’t that nuts!?
My anger is turning into rage. Completely unacceptable for such an expensive trainer. At least Wahoo gave an explanation on why the older trainers weren’t getting the firmware upgrade. Come on Garmin!
I think this is on brand for Garmin to not participate. The company continues to think that Tacx can become their own walled garden of fitness with subscription based access to the Tacx Premium service.
I mentioned this in a comment on Facebook, but in some ways, Garmin holding out is actually the best thing for consumers. Essentially, with Zwift locking virtual shifting to only Zwift, as soon as Tacx folds into that, the rest of the 3rd party app industry collapses incredibly quickly. I’d give it 1-2 years tops, and most of those apps will be gone or severely hobbled.
(Apps like TrainerRoad don’t count here, because they’re ERG mode, so semi-unaffected…)
Sure, one can say this is Garmin keeping their business interests first, and there’s an element of that which is true. But there’s also a big element that says they look at the rest of the app landscape, and know if they switch to Zwift Cog (which, like it or not, is what this really is), then ultimately, that’ll quickly kill off all those 3rd party apps due to lack of virtual shifting. And while Zwift is a big player here, collectively, the other apps do actually keep Zwift in check.
Garmin is also more uniquely positioned than Elite or Wahoo in terms of distribution. Far greater distribution through Garmin’s network globally than either of those two. Sure, you can buy an Elite/Wahoo trainer in most countries, but again, not anywhere near close in distribution quantity.
My hope here is that Garmin is basically pressuring Zwift into some form of agreement on opening up the virtual shifting protocol to 3rd party apps. Yes, one can argue Zwift “created it”, but Zwift’s success as a company is only because of the open standards that let them build atop all these trainer brands. And never mind the fact that Zwift basically hobbled pretty much every other open-standard attempt of the last 10 years in the indoor trainer space (from a protocol update standpoint, in terms of what Wahoo/Garmin/etc all proposed over the years, Zwift would ignore).
So, as I said elsewhere, in a weird perverse way, Garmin may actually be saving us from ourselves on this one. A case where we all want something, but don’t really understand the longer-term implications of what we want.
I’d be very interested to see how their subscription numbers are actually faring with that. Given all of the other more well-known brands losing subscribers it seems crazy to expect that you’ll actually get growth in the Tacx-only world.
Thanks for the deep dive – was two seconds away from asking a follow-up on the why/what next!
Is the implication here that you’re hoping that Zwift eventually opens up its virtual shifting API to the industry so that something like Training Peaks could use it in their new app? That would be pretty amazing and potentially risky for Zwift since one of the things keeping me on Zwift right now is simply that I have the Hub coming with my Victory.
Its not the only thing though since I’ve tried other apps and I don’t know if its all in my head but Zwift seems to much better handle things like changes in incline in ways that feel more natural.
Correct.
In terms of resistance changes, there are no differences there between apps (e.g. between Zwift and Rouvy on regular trainer resistance changes). It’s simply an ANT+ or BLE command the app sends telling them to change to a given gradient %.
Where apps can get a bit more clever is to often send those commands slightly before you get to the gradient, such as 1-2 seconds prior, so that it matches on-screen.
The other thing that may be changing perception is your trainer difficulty level. By Zwift setting their default to 50%, it means it decreases the amount each trainer has to change (e.g. going from 0% to 8%), which can make it feel quicker/smoother. Other apps also have that setting, and it varies as to what they set it at. Of course, in reality, it’s reducing realism in exchange for making us believe we can easily go up a 12% climb…but…that’s a different debate for a different day.
The only possible scenario I see of Garmin getting Zwift to open up their shift protocol is Garmin purchasing the smoldering ruins of Watopia if/when Zwift finally folds.
And Elite as also said: “After introducing the Cog and Click integration with Direto XR, we’re thrilled to extend this to all standard models. Firmware updates for Justo, Justo 2, and Avanti are expected in early 2025, with updates for Suito(-T), Direto, Direto X, and Direto XR Team coming this spring.”
Too bad I bought a Jetblack Victory to replace my Suito.
Nice! In fact, in looking at the press release, there’s even a discount code mentioned there: link to elite-it.com
Do you think there any chance Elite will roll this back to the Drivo 2? It’s still a beast, and showing no signs of wearing out :)
That’s interesting Ray, we have a dual Direto XR (t) setup and wondered if Elite would do something about this. I presume this will work on XRt as well as XR being that the the ‘t’ was just an XR without a cassette? That said, can’t see the advantage of Zwift Cog yet? I presume if we update the firmware on our XRt’s it won’t affect continuing to use them with a cassette? Bit wordy all that – sorry! Rob UK
Correct, same-same.
And also correct, no impact to regular cassette usage.
Thanks DC.
I do not understand this. What is new in this update? It worked before D100 with swift click and cog
As noted above, it only worked for the D100 & Direto XR if you bought it from Zwift as a Cog bundle. But, if you bought a Direto XR in the past years, the firmware didn’t work. Same goes for the D100 if you bought it at Decathlon sans-Cog (that firmware wasn’t compatible).
Interesting that Elite is going “all-in” supporting the Cog, seems like it could undercut their Elite Square launch..?
Any chance the original Kickr Bike will get any love Ray? I’m thinking about leaving the Wahoo brand but it’s just a painful financial decision. Going to hate it if they suddenly updated the Kickr bike to include the gears in Zwift.🤣 Thanks
Now just waiting for Saris to bring virtual shifting to the H3. And yes, a couple months ago Saris posted onto Reddit that they are working on it. :). The Reddit thread is here:
link to reddit.com
Same Todd, although I’m not too optimistic.
I think they’ll get there, but I’d say the timelines are gonna be longer than most people want.
But, by the same token, they do have to start rebuilding that company (which, is effectively what this is, whether they want to admit it or not). Background: link to dcrainmaker.com
FYI apparently the elite discount code nullifies the free shipping. So really it’s $12.50 off.
We have updated the code to be a value of £/$/€27.50 to ensure that additional amount is included to cover shipping costs (£/$/€7.50) of the Cog and Click upgrade packs.this should be live.
Hi Peter,
a question for you while you are here ;-)
Is there any way to access Elite firmware updates changelogs?
Elite forum could be a natural place for this, but Elite official posts are rare.
Does Justo firmware version 18 include virtual shifting compatibility for Zwift Cog earlier than promised (beg 2025), or only for Elite Square as guessed on Elite forum?
Good point on the changelog. I shared your idea with our team and they should be including it soon in our forum.
Justo FW 18 is only for Elite Square.The Zwift Cog update is scheduled for early 2025.
Thanks for your feedback!
I already ordered and received Cog&Click.
Impossible to connect Click to Zwift, I guess it is the expected behaviour as long as Justo is not recognized as compatible.
So now I hope that early 2025 will come really early ;-)
Just installed Justo FW 20 released January 20 (and announced by email yesterday, only talking about power accuracy) , and trainer is still reported by Zwift as not compatible with virtual shifting.
Do I have to wait for another Elite FW update, or is a Zwift update necessary to recognize the trainer as compatible?
I have the Garmin ecosystem incl. the Tacx Neo 2T. I dont need any virtual shifting.
Tacx has even the “road feel” feature, I have turned it off in Zwift, I dont need the shaking on the cobbles.
Just updated my XR. Nice, works flawlessly with Zwift Play Controllers. Pleasantly surprised as I got an email back from Elite sometime ago that my XR would not be updated in the future for this, as the internals are different. Just rode with Coco. No issues. Thanks Ray, thanks Elite
It’s insane to me that they still don’t have any plan to support the Kickr V5. And insanely frustrating.
Especially when there are third party apps that enable virtual shifting on a v5 kickr
Keep beating that drum Ray! Open standards are in the best interest of the consumers, and the consumers are the ones that ultimately can demand them with their wallets. It is important to educate less technical users of this factor to make sure Zwift doesn’t pull a quick one on the virtual cycling apps by bullying the trainer manufacturers into shipping without physical shifting capabilities (with Zwift Cog only), and delivering the virtual shifting buttons instead, that only work with Zwift.
For me personally, I only use ERG mode, so I don’t need any shifting (virtual or physical), and I don’t use any virtual riding apps, but just load a workout with the excellent&free web-app trainer control tool Auuki. Anyhow I still feel strongly that adding a shifting capability into smart trainers that can only work on one platform is a terrible idea.
Wow, I have been looking for a nice free workout player for a long time that is brand agnostic. Maybe this is the one.
Has there been any discussion about why virtual shifting is limited to bluetooth connection and does not work with ANT+? Is it that the ANT+ protocol is not as extensible?
As zwift use their own proprietary protocol over bluetooth – and probably your phone/pc running zwift is more likely to have bluetooth and they can lock you into zwift.
obviously it would be great to have a garmin connect app/garmin edge button/ axs or di2 buttons etc connect directly to the trainer to vary the resistance like having 24 gears through existing open standard protocols.
in terms of wahoo trainers
Bluetooth FTMS – kickr v5/v6/core
Ant+ FE-C – kickr v1 onwards/core
kickr v4/5 not getting virtual shifting due to insufficient memory on the trainer to handle this base protocol code ??
dont know how relevant this still is either – about resistance levels based on connection type.
link to zwiftinsider.com
I wonder if it is illegal if an app uses the commands to, for example, control virtual shifting on an wahoo kickr. It probably shouldn’t be too difficult to reverse engineer the protocol…
Non sequitur of the day:
There are 4 Decathlons on Mallorca! One on Ibiza and one on Menorca too.
Dartmouth NS has to service the entire Maritimes, but Montreal does have 6.
The Rysel D100 is out of stock in all the Decathlon Stores in my country, I guess is because all off them are in the Northern half of the World
Since you’re almost ready to post the Avanti review, any word on when the Square will finally emerge? Been holding out on buying a smart frame because I already have a Suito T and would prefer a belt drive … but if it’s not forthcoming and Suito/Cog support is, I won’t wait much longer.
Elite is saying a unit to me likely in the January timeframe, though still not final firmware, just to start getting. feel for things before release. So we’re now probably looking at Feb+ for consumer shipping.
Is the Elite Zumo likely to get a firmware update for this too? I think it’s exclusive to Halfords in the UK, so not sure if that would be considered a standard model.
I see you use the Zwift cog with 12 by sram flat top chain. I am hesitating cause of the different diameter compared to Shimano chain. Do not want to have massive chain wear ..
do you use it often or just to show in your review?
I use it 100% of the time that way. Never had an issue.
Sure, on a technical side, there’s perhaps higher wear there. But from a reality side, a 12SP new chain, if it ever actually became an issue, is 40EUR from SRAM. A 12SP cassette? A lot more. Plus, you need to go buy the 12SP SRAM XDR adapter for all these trainers (whereas the 12SP Shimanjo one fits on without issue).
I’ve been doing it this way for years without issue.
Hi,
what’s the point of experiencing the realism of climbs through resistance changes on the trainer again if it just means we end up adjusting the resistance back with a few clicks anyway?
I mean, we could just set the trainer difficulty to 0%
My Zwift cog+click for my Direto XR just got delivered:-)
Happy riding
Yup…just yup…
Don’t worry zwift is hard at work on their next innovation: auto virtual shifting! So when you encounter a hill, the resistance increases momentarily, but then the magic of auto virtual shifting kicks in and the resistance goes back to normal with an auto virtual shift! People are going to love this new innovation, they can avoid the hassle of shifting and just concentrate on their ride.
Boredom is the point. At least in my case, if I’m not doing anything else, I swiftly get bored just sitting there spinning. It’s something I learned when I first got a smart trainer and started doing virtual rides by replaying real rides on my Edge. Before that, I couldn’t stand being on a trainer (rollers most of the time) for more than 45 minutes. The first virtual ride I did I was amazed that 45 minutes went by without me even noticing, simply because I had something to do, shifting based on where I was on the tiny map on the Edge. When I started using Zwift, it was even better, because I had to shift and occasionally decide on a direction (the scenery is nice, but incidental). Giving you something to do other than pedal is the big advantage of simulating terrain, and makes it a little closer to riding outdoors.
Tapping up/down between gears alleviates boredom for you? It does not for me, it’s annoying. The simulation of being in a virtual world and feeling of motion and being able to go places is much better, and it really sounds like you need to try a more engaging ride, join a fast group ride or a race, staying tight into the draft and not getting dropped is more than enough to keep your mind occupied!
Not sure making riding closer to outdoors should be a goal in and of itself, otherwise zwift would introduce cars and stops signs and flats, and not being able to log on some days due to weather.
IMO the Zwift cog is pointless, especially for one bike households like mine. I have a Shimano 105 12 speed cassette on both my bike and Zwift Hub trainer and use TrainerRoad for workouts and Fulgaz for simulating riding on real roads.
Artificially changing gears using buttons and being locked into Zwift are real turn-offs.
Honesdtly it’s not worth the money at all for most of customers. The “switch between 7 bikes you own and train indoor” mumbojumbo was the only solid advantange that their marketing team could come up with.
Cog makes it less noisy as there is no shifting, but it makes you feel like you are on a wheel on trainer from 10 years ago.
The trainer has only one realistic setting – the resistance applied to the flywheel – with Cog installed you end with virtual shifting trying to negotiate the perfect resistance level with the grade simulation. And the result is that it feels more like riding a bike in the mud than a trainer at home.
Has anyone updated the firmware on the D100 whilst still using with a cassette and not the Zwift cog? I bought a D100 to tide me over until my Victory arrives and all was well until I installed the new firmware. Since then I have no resistance when using as a controllable trainer on Zwift. Works fine in erg mode, so at least I can still do workouts, but in free ride, nada. Everything looks fine in Van Rysel’s OneLap app so this seems to be an issue in Zwift only. I’ve noticed the wrench icon to run a spin down in Zwift has disappeared. There’s a thread on Reddit so this seems to be a known issue, and I have flagged up with Van Rysel, but so far they can’t find a solution.
HI Graham,
I have exactly the same problem. D100, mechanical cassette, nor resistance during races since the firmware update. No problems in workouts. Only free rides/races don’t work. Saw the thread on Reddit, but so far I did not find a solution.
I’ve just received the following update from Van Rysel in the UK:
“Just to update you I’ve not had a reply as yet so presumably they’re still working out the glitch & yes you’re correct it’s caused problems for the standard set up.
Fingers crossed they’ll get back with a solution this week but I’ll keep an eye on it and if I’ve not heard anything in a couple of days I’ll chase them up in France.”
Hopefully they’re figuring out a solution…
Anyone got the volt v2 to work with virtual shifting? I’m still waiting to hear back from JetBlack about the code needed to upgrade the firmware (isn’t it insane that you have to request a code to use a feature that you paid for?)
I don’t quite understand what the problem with virtual shifting is. The cog is just a single gear and resistance is all simulated in the games. Apps control the resistance on the trainer so that when a hill is reached, pedalling gets harder, for example. The app tells the trainer to do that. So why can’t the apps be programmed to have a keyboard shortcut (Indievelo does this) to adjust the resistance relative to the gradient of the slope to simulate changing gears? This keyboard shortcut could be replicated in a mobile companion app that has just up/down controls to shift from a mobile device, or even be opened up and be controlled from a third-party remote shifter. It can’t be that hard for apps to support shifting virtual gears if they already control the trainer.
Zwift gotta make a monopoly play though.
Yeah, I understand that Zwift are trying to monetize this but if the apps already have control over the trainer resistance then this is within the domain of the app developers to support their own implementation of virtual shifting. The limitation here is just the Zwift click, and I would think that can be replicated with a companion app or with a third-party shifting device.
Because virtual shifting is not a great feature on its own. You have a “demo” version of it in zwift – when you are in a workout with erg enabled, you can use the arrow keys to change the target power of entire workout. It gives you a good understanding of the gimmicky nature of virtual shifting.
Obviously zwift tries to grab as much market as possible, so every e-sport race will be decked out wit zwift frames ( and cogs). The cog itself costs probably a tony fraction of a price that sourcing a cassette from Shimano would cost (not to mention logistics and fluctuations in supply).
It’s natural for zwift to promote it as much as possible – it saves and makes them money and monopolizes the market for them.
Finally, everyone pretends that indoor cycling is cheap and not a tiny niche for people realtively well off. 75 euro cog is sold as huge money saved versus a cassette that you can get gor 50. Obviously all that after purchasing a 750€ trainer for a 2000€ bike.
The problem with other companies implementing virtual shifting, is that outsider of a few geeks, nobody actually wants to use a keyboard or phone screen to shift. It’s simply cumbersome at best, and non-functional at worst (e.g. sweaty fingers on a screen). Thus, you have to have buttons on the handlebars (akin to the Zwift Click).
The cost of a Zwift Click is relatively trivial in the grand scheme of things. But 3rd party apps and trainers would need to decide on a standard and implement it. And, one thing we’ve seen over the past few years is these companies have largely stepped away from standards groups/etc, thus, in some ways, this is the result of that. Likewise, nobody except apparently Tacx has had the balls to stand-up and say ‘Nah, we’re not gonna do it till it’s open standard’.
Ultimately, this is akin to watching a movie in slow motion. We all know how this ends, but somehow the companies involved don’t seem to want to accept that.
Ray, is that Tacx having the balls or Garmin simply losing interest in the trainer space? When the time comes to replace my Neo 2, given the prices of trainers and virtual shifting support I’m not sure I’ll choose Tacx, much as I like road feel simulation and coasting downhill.
Rainmaker, give us your thoughts on how BS it is kickr v5 won’t with with this
Hi Ray, very useful info. I have the Elite Direto XR and am considering the Zwift cog & click, primarily to encourage my wife & son to use the trainer as i think virtual shifting will be easier for them initially.
You mention that virtual shifting can be achieved with the ‘ click ‘ only and the cog is not actually required. In that scenario does the Zwift Click connect via BT or Ant+ to the trainer ?
Finally , you mentioned that virtual shifting won’t work in ERG mode in Workouts. I use ERG and sometimes a gear change is required, can I confirm that this wouldn’t work with the Click, apologies for long winded question
Dave