Ok, technically it’s not called the KICKR2. Technically, it’s actually just the ‘New KICKR’, but, that makes for a confusing title in Google search terms (and life in general). Thus from here on out it’s called the ‘New KICKR’.
In any case, welcome to the new KICKR review. In talking with Wahoo, the aim of this unit isn’t a revolutionary new design, but rather a more evolutionary set of upgrades to the KICKR. These upgrades fall in five distinct categories:
1) Make it quieter: A reduction in both volume, but also more importantly tone of the sound (it’s not silent) 2) Increase precision: A change to the hardware will increase their accuracy claims and reduce failures 3) Improve Responsiveness: Another hardware change increases the responsiveness of the unit during massive instant leaps of power (i.e. 150w to 500w). 4) Make connectivity easier: Add in new connectivity lights to understand what’s connected 5) Add a handle: They’ve made the handle useful and big, and re-adjusted the weight so it doesn’t flop around and hit you in the shins
They also made a small bump to the maximum resistance levels as well. But, more on all of that in a bit. Now, if you want to skip the whole reading thing, you can simply watch my gigantic overview video here. I talk about the specific changes above, as well as dive into an initial audio overview. Later in this post I do a nifty side by side audio comparison between the new and old KICKR. I used all of my video skillz to produce it. It’s got special effects and other magic.
As you may have seen, earlier this summer Wahoo started teasing the new KICKR. And by ‘teasing’, I mean having Chris Froome warm up on it during a key time trial stage at the Tour de France. You know, your average low-key teaser. A bit later, they went searching for the next most capable rider to test with. That person wasn’t available, so thus they gave me the trainer to try out instead.
The unit is a final production unit, and from the same batches that will start shipping today (yes, today) from retailers. Once I’m done with it, I’ll send it back to them as usual. With that, let’s get rollin’!
What’s in the box:
First things first is getting the whole kit unboxed. It’ll come in a nearly identical box to that of the original Wahoo KICKR. Or rather, two boxes. The outer brown box shell protects the inner pretty box.
Inside you’ve got the pretty box:
Crack that open and there’s a solid pile of hard foam to keep the KICKR from getting bruised during shipment.
Once you dump everything (somewhat carefully) out on a table, here’s what you’ve got.
First up is the new KICKR itself, in all its magical glory!
Next there’s a small pile of bags. The first bag contains the power cord and some instructions about not standing in a pool of water while you plug it in. Pro Tip: Follow this suggestion to avoid zapping your new KICKR and yourself.
The pile also contains a (old) quick start guide for the KICKR.
The power cord is dual voltage, so you can be on 110v (US/Canada) or 220v (basically everywhere else) and have no issues. It uses a similar power cord connection to that of the KICKR SNAP, and later-produced original KICKR’s, which have a flexible adapter sticking out the back of the trainer to connect to. This minimizes the chances of snapping the power cord when you trip on it.
Next, you’ve got a Wahoo RPM2 cadence sensor. This is included standard in all KICKR boxes these days, which is pretty nifty. This is a dual ANT+/Bluetooth Smart cadence sensor that pops on your crank arm. Finally, you’ve got a small tool for disc brakes.
With that, your unboxing journey has completed and it’s time to get it to your man (or woman) cave.
Setting it up:
The first change that you’ll have noticed in getting the new KICKR to its semi-final resting place is that new weight-balanced handle. No longer does the KICKR swing down and put a bloody gash in your shins. Instead, it just smoothly goes into the air. Unless your upper body strength needs more gym time, in which case the KICKR is still probably sitting where you dumped it out of the box waiting for your BFF to rescue it.
Now that you’ve transported the 48 pounds of goodness down to your training hole, you’ll first want to expand out the legs. You’ll do so by pressing the little blue dots, which are locks. This allows you to fold it up afterwards.
Then you’ll go ahead and change the height of the KICKR (unless you’re riding a short bike). By default it’ll be at the lowest setting upon shipping from the factory, so you want to set it to a more normal height.
Next, go ahead and plop on your bike. To do this you’ll simply remove your rear wheel and place it on the trainer as if it were its own wheel. It comes with a quick release skewer, which I just leave in the KICKR at all times.
You don’t need to put a wheel block under the front wheel, as it simulates level. However, I prefer a wheel block to keep my wheel nice and straight.
Now, when it comes to a direct drive trainer, some folks will have preferences for a (rear) wheel-on trainer because it means you don’t have to remove your rear wheel. Whereas other folks will prefer a direct drive trainer as it provides greater traction than most wheel-on trainers and also reduces tire wear. Both are valid opinions.
I find the first comment (taking off wheel) will vary based on exactly how finicky your bike is. For example, on my Cervelo P3C triathlon bike, the way the rear drop-outs work is a pain in the ass. Whereas on my road bike, it’s silly easy. So it just pops out. Of course, neither take more than 15-20 seconds. But the same could be said for putting the toilet seat down and we all know how that goes.
Note that the new KICKR is only shipping with an 11-speed cassette. But like before, if you want to swap out the cassette for another type or speed variant, you can simply follow Wahoo’s instructions on their support site. It’s pretty straightforward.
Finally, just for lack of anywhere else to put it, here’s a couple of quick comparison photos showing new vs old KICKR. The easiest way to spot them from afar is that grey handle. New KICKR = grey handle, old KICKR = no grey handle.
Ok, let’s move onto actually using the thing.
Usage Details:
Now for this section I’m going to focus on some basics of using an electronic trainer, but I’m going to keep things fairly KICKR-specific. The reason is simply that I’ve got so many trainer reviews to write and duplicating the same content over and over and over again on the apps that all basically work the same seems kinda silly to me.
Instead, I’m going to cover trainer apps as part of a Fall 2016 refresh of my existing massive trainer app guide, otherwise reading every new trainer review over the next month will get a bit repetitive. By and large, once you start pedaling, these apps make the individual nuances of each trainer disappear.
Where the differences exist in these trainers are instead in aspects such as responsiveness, sound levels, slight protocol differences, power accuracy, resistance maximums, and finally hardware form factors.
We’ll start with some of those protocol differences. The new Wahoo KICKR follows in the footsteps of the existing Wahoo KICKR, which means it transmits on dual ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart. These days that’s commonplace, but when the original KICKR first came out, they were the first to do either protocol openly – let alone both. Atop the KICKR you’ll see new lights for both. The ANT+ light is pretty much always on, since it’s always transmitting, whereas the Bluetooth light will only illuminate when an app makes a connection to it:
The KICKR (both variants) transmit the following data streams:
– ANT+ Power with speed
– Bluetooth Smart Power with speed
It does *not* transmit cadence; however, the included Wahoo RPM2 pod does transmit both ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart cadence. This is a slight difference from Tacx, which transmits all of that (albeit estimated) from the trainer itself.
Next, the KICKR allows control from apps over the following protocols:
– ANT+ FE-C Trainer Control Protocol
– Bluetooth Smart Trainer Control via Wahoo API’s
The first one (FE-C) is a well-documented industry standard (read more about it here), whereas the second is essentially the de facto industry standard after Wahoo was the first to roll such a thing out. Every trainer app out there supports it, and any apps that don’t support it you’ve likely never heard of because nobody uses them. So it’s not really even a discussion point when it comes to Bluetooth Smart trainer support and the KICKR, heck, even their competitors support the KICKR using Bluetooth Smart in their respective software suites.
If you were looking at other trainers, such as those from Elite and Tacx, you’ll see slightly more mixed app support on Bluetooth Smart control. So depending on the apps you want to use, you’ll want to triple-check that they support your specific trainer brand on the protocol you plan to use.
You can also use various head units to control the KICKR. This includes the Garmin Edge 520/820/1000, as well as the Wahoo ELEMNT. In my experience, the Wahoo ELEMNT is easily the best head unit for controlling a trainer in ERG mode in terms of ease of use – especially for manual ERG mode.
It’s super easy to increase/decrease wattage quickly manually, versus the funky menu system on the Garmin units. On the flip side, the Garmin units support more automated workout modes that the ELEMNT doesn’t yet support.
In any case, I used it with Zwift, TrainerRoad, and the default Wahoo Fitness app (plus the ELEMNT). All worked without issue in terms of the basics, though I’d give the slight edge to Zwift in terms of responsiveness. TrainerRoad was good, but I found a few cases where doing intervals that it seemed to ‘miss’ the start of an interval by a couple of seconds (albeit I was somewhat thankful for the extra break). It’s unclear to me if that has anything to do with the new KICKR (unlikely), or just the implementation that TR has, or simply because it was cloudy that day. In the grand scheme of things it’s not a huge deal, but we are talking minutiae here so I figured I’d mention it.
(Update from TrainerRoad folks: They dove into my files and diag data to see what occurred. In a nutshell, the app had connected to the ‘older’ KICKR ANT protocol, vs FE-C, which is more susceptible to interference. The diag logs show I was getting drop-outs (that’s not shown to me mid-ride though). They do a bunch of retries, which is the delay I saw occasionally but not always. It sounds like triple-checking that it’s using either ANT+ FE-C or Bluetooth Smart would solve the issue).
On Zwift, all of my recent rides have been using the new KICKR, and actually both on the desktop app using ANT+ FE-C, as well as on the new iOS (iPad) app using Bluetooth Smart.
And of course, you can just use Wahoo’s free native app to control the power in ERG or similar power control modes (i.e. resistance levels, etc…).
Of course, the main reason you buy such a trainer is the ability to control your resistance. Be it to simulate a ride outdoors while watching a synchronized video, or to specify a very exact wattage for punishing intervals. That’s the key difference between a smart trainer and a ‘dumb trainer’ (one that requires you manually hold a given effort/power output).
All electronic trainers have specified maximum levels that they support. These typically are listed in two different metrics. The first is the maximum power (in watts) output that it can sustain. After that point, it’ll simply be unable to resist any higher. The second is the maximum incline that a trainer can replicate. Again, after this point it’ll simply fail to provide enough resistance. Neither cause the trainer to break, but rather they just can’t go beyond this point – like a car hitting their top speed – ‘I’m givin’ it all she’s got!’.
Now interestingly, both of these metrics are based on speed. Essentially the slower you go, the less resistance trainers can output. Most companies provide these metrics at either 20MPH (30KPH), 30MPH, or 40KPH for max wattage, and at 6-10MPH for max incline.
In the case of the KICKR, the max incline is 20%, which is well beyond what you’ll actually use in any common training apps. For example, Alpe d’Huez as a ride has an average grade of 8%, though some very brief peaks to 12%. And it has a max resistance wattage of 2,000w. For 99.99% of people, you’ll never need anywhere near 2,000w. Myself, on a *very* good day I can just top out at 1,000w. The new KICKR saw a slight bump in incline from 15% previously.
Sound Levels:
Ahh yes, the sound of not silence. Or rather, lack of silence.
The new KICKR isn’t silent, nor anywhere near silent. But it’s also quieter than the original KICKR. 14% according to Wahoo in some fancy test suite. But it’s not the decibel levels that matter here, but rather the significant change in tone/pitch.
Now someday I’ll write all about trainer sound and noise testing. I’ve learned a lot over the years, and the more I do the more I realize how hopeless it really is to give folks a truly accurate view of the sound levels in videos (let alone measure them). There are a massive number of environmental factors that truly do have a huge impact:
– The room materials (which can make trainers quieter or louder due to echo, noise dampening, etc…)
– The size of the room
– The exact distance of the camera and/or decibel meter
– The mode of the decibel meter
– The type of mics used
– The sound levels of the mics used
– The exact position of the mics relative to different sides of the trainer
– How the mics capture different tones
– How I edited the audio (normalized levels)
– The speed of the trainer
– The cleanliness of the drivetrain on your bike
– The shifting accuracy (tuning) of your bike’s drive train
– Whether or not I remembered to turn on the @#$@# mics
– And other items I’m likely forgetting
Any one of these items can make the entire trainer sound dramatically different. I think I might put together a funny video showing just this some day. It makes doing repeatable tests over the course of years very difficult. So instead, I’m going to focus on ‘in the now’ type tests by showing two trainers side by side in as close of conditions as possible.
But before I do that, let’s talk about that change in tone on the new KICKR. They’ve changed the belt that was used (Update: They changed aspects of the hardware below the belt and where it interfaces), which in turn has significantly reduced the high-pitch whine that you used to hear on the original KICKR. It also reduced the noise levels (again, by a claimed 14%). In my testing, both claims seem easily supported. Again, it’s not silent – don’t let anyone try and convince you of that. But it is quite a bit better, with the tone changing things the most.
To demonstrate that I put together this side by side video. It’s the pinnacle of my video editing skills (my mountain top is pretty low), but it gives you a side by side back and forth comparison between two units spaced identically apart with virtually identical setups across the board. It’s probably as absolutely close to a perfect setup I can get given the conditions I have. If someone would like to purchase a sound-stage for me in central Paris, I’ll consider a DCR Annex. Until then, go forth and enjoy:
As you can see, the big change there is tone, but also that drop in overall volume will make some difference. As noted earlier, it’s not the quietest trainer out there, but it’s not bad either. Plus, most people have a fan running anyway – often zapping any further sound savings.
Accuracy Testing:
Next we’ve got accuracy testing, where I look at how well the unit tracks from a power accuracy perspective. To do this I’m using a bike with numerous power meters on it. This specific bike is configured with the following power meters: Quarq RIKEN, PowerTap P1 pedals, Stages Power (Gen1), and LIMITS. I’ve excluded LIMITS from this, because… well… it just makes for confusing graphs. And I removed Stages because I didn’t want the left-leg only bias to skew things.
For power accuracy testing I’ve pulled some of my rides on the trainer to look at how well it responds, both in different apps but also different use cases. I tried to vary aspects like workout responsiveness in structured workouts with that of Zwift responsiveness. During these sessions I also varied cadence a fair bit, to suss out any oddities there (I didn’t see any, but it’s an area that can impact power accuracy).
Note that the new KICKR received a pretty significant change in terms of how it measures power. Specifically, they removed the strain gauge they previously had in it, and instead are measuring resistance of the brake itself, which they found increased their accuracy and also increased responsiveness (since it short-cut a logic loop of having to check another component).
They also said it more importantly reduced failures, specifically noting during a call: “We found that the [original KICKR] strain gauge was sensitive, and had a high failure rate.” And thus when they “eliminated the strain gauge, it reduced failure rate”. This may help to explain why some people had accuracy problems with the KICKR, yet others had no issues at all. Failure may also not be black and white in this case either, especially when looking at components such as this gauge.
Note that they still do recommend an occasional roll-down calibration be done on the unit. For all my testing I did a roll-down prior to starting, though I did NOT do one once I began (I normally do in my regular training about 10-15 mins in). But I wanted to see how it fared without that.
So with that – let’s start with a session on Zwift. This means my power is variable (like an outdoor ride), and not constrained to a given wattage level. Here’s the overall chart:
You can see everything tracks very well, and I don’t see any obvious drift beyond that warm-up period. It looks like the new KICKR starts slightly higher than everyone else (only talking a couple of percent), but within 10 minutes it settles out and stays the same throughout.
Next, to dive into a couple of key areas, I want to focus on one of the sprints I did. This helps to illuminate how quickly the KICKR responds – both in terms of feel, but also power accuracy. Here’s that first major sprint (smoothed at 5s), to see how all the units react:
As you can see, it tracked very well across that sprint. And looking at other areas of the ride, it also tracked well, such as the basics of steady-state usage along the rolling sections. You’ll see here that in general the KICKR is the higher of the numbers, though not much. Within the +/- 2% that we see.
If you want, you can dive into the above ride here on the DCR Analyzer.
Next, here’s a structured workout on TrainerRoad. I did this workout to see how well it holds certain power levels. Here’s the overview (note: I’ll update the screenshot later and add in the P1 data, I had a file mismatch in the database and need to re-grab the file from that head unit):
What’s interesting here is that you can see that the KICKR is basically broadcasting the power it’s told it’s supposed to hold. Which is why the line looks so darn blocky. I suppose that’s fine, though it’s not realistic. Nonetheless, if I smooth out the Quarq data enough, I can see that it does line-up perfectly throughout the workout. The points where you see the drops are simply where I failed to hold the power.
Next, let’s look at some of those peaks again:
Again, it’s kinda wonky data to look at, but technically it’s executing on this correctly and matching the Quarq. Note that I did NOT use any sort of PowerMatch here.
However, this doesn’t 100% tell the entire story. See, it doesn’t show you what I was supposed to do (or rather, it was supposed to do). For that we need to skip over to the TrainerRoad screenshots and focus on the first interval. Note how the line showing the planned workout doesn’t perfectly match that of the trainer. In this case, I saw a few instances where it took a few seconds before the KICKR reacted. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that’s more of a TrainerRoad issue than a KICKR one (every once in a while I hear of similar issues from folks). Whereas on other intervals it perfectly responds. Again, we’re only talking a few seconds but it’s worth nothing.
(Update: See earlier explanation up above from TrainerRoad after they pulled the log files from my ride. In short, it was connected on the legacy channel, which is more susceptible to drop-outs than ANT+ FE-C or Bluetooth Smart.)
Here, I’ve zoomed in on that section:
Note that the later failures to hold power were purely mine, and my overzealousness in power numbers after who knows how many test workouts that day and how little sleep I got. #NotPoweredByEPO
Finally, here’s one last workout using the iPad version of the TrainerRoad app (as opposed to the desktop version above). I did this because I wanted to see if changing platforms might help (and I had time to burn today waiting for WiFi). In the desktop version I was using ANT+ FE-C, whereas in the iPad version I’m using Bluetooth Smart over KICKR’s native protocol. Plus, it’d dive deeper into the whole responsiveness thing on tougher 30×30’s.
Here’s the overall view:
What’s really interesting here is that the KICKR is simply broadcasting the target power, and not the actual power. The actual power is varying a little bit towards the end of the interval. To me it’s interesting that we see this super clearly on workouts like this, but less so on Zwift because of the fact that it’s not in an ERG mode. Now remember that I’m recording the ANT+ output onto a Garmin head unit, which means that I’m seeing whatever the KICKR thinks the current power level is.
(Update on this from Wahoo Fitness: They confirmed what I’m seeing, and it appears to be a decision they made on how they broadcast power in ERG mode to not include accelerations – which is why I didn’t see it in Zwift. They’re going to make a tweak in the software which should immediately resolve this and thus give you the real data. As you saw, the unit nails accuracy; it’s just that it’s missing the jumpiness normally seen.)
And finally, the deeper dive into a few intervals from the TrainerRoad standpoint. You can see it starts/stops the intervals perfectly this time, which makes me believe that it may have been more of a delay on the FE-C side versus the BLE side. Each time it nails it, as seen on the comparison page:
Overall I’m not seeing any accuracy issues of concern with the new KICKR in terms of hitting the targets specified. Whether that’s because my unit was checked 98 times over before being hand-delivered to me, or because the changes Wahoo has made with respect to their power measurement have resulted in higher accuracy – I don’t know.
However, I am seeing an oddity where it’s broadcasting power levels that aren’t necessarily correct. It’s broadcasting target power, versus actually broadcasting the measured power. In many cases those are the same, but as I showed above – that’s not always the case. Hopefully this is something they can tweak in software (Update: Wahoo plans to issue an update to solve this.)
(Note: All of the charts in these accuracy sections were created using the DCR Analyzer tool. It allows you to compare power meters/trainers, heart rate, cadence, speed/pace, GPS tracks and plenty more. You can use it as well, more details here.)
Update: Many of you have asked for more clarity on the strain gauge changes, how that impacts accuracy, and more definition on what accuracy changes are coming. I sat down with Chip from Wahoo Fitness at Eurobike and recorded a big long thing purely on accuracy. But that came out like crap (audio issues). So we did it at Interbike, and it came out pretty well. Here it is below. It’s definitely pretty technical, so if you’re a geek – I suspect you’ll enjoy it.
Trainer Comparison:
There’s a boatload of trainer reviews that’ll be publishing to the site over the coming weeks, based 100% on when companies get me final production units. The next review you’ll see is the Elite Drivo unit. Sorry, I had wanted to have that done before the KICKR one, but alas trying to hit Eurobike embargo release timelines for other products shifted the Drivo writing a few days later. Sorry!
As I alluded to on a recent podcast and post, I think the core driver for early season trainer sales will simply be availability of new models. Despite companies announcing trainers sooner this year, they’re struggling to actually ship them. So if you need a trainer for September you’ll have a far more limited set of competitive options than that of late October.
As of present though, with all known trainers for the 2016 season announced, I see the main competitors to the KICKR as such:
CycleOps Hammer(time) Trainer: At the same price, this is a dead heat between the two units. Quite frankly it’s just going to come down to running them side by side to see who exactly is quieter and who exactly has better accuracy. With the KICKR2 available now, and the Hammer not coming till October, that may sway some people’s decision. There’s also some greater compatibility aspects with the Hammer’s hardware that’s worth considering. I’ve honestly got nothing more I can add in terms of deciding between this and the KICKR2 until I have both final production units side by side in a quiet room. Again, it’ll be all about accuracy and decibels. Preview post on the Hammer here.
Elite Drivo Trainer: This is a very strong competitor but at $100USD more, and is the one that’s really going to give the KICKR2 its run for the money, primarily because of the very high level of accuracy here (within 1%), as well as the quieter sound levels. I’ll be publishing a side by side video with the new KICKR in the Drivo Trainer review, but in short it’s quieter than the KICKR2. My understanding is that this unit has begun shipping already in limited quantities, and that should be ramping up considerably over the next few weeks – so it shouldn’t be too difficult to get early season. Preview post on the Drivo here.
Tacx NEO: Obviously, the big boy in the room these days. I think it’s clear that the NEO has become the best electronically controlled trainer on the market today, both in terms of sound as well as accuracy. But it’s also $400USD more than the KICKR. In Europe, pricing is a bit different. Sure, if you’re in a situation where the NEO is at a price point that makes sense for you – then I’ve got no qualms using it. I love riding mine, especially since there’s no need to do calibration. I will be releasing a final and full in-depth review based on a recent production unit later in September. In the meantime, my hands-on post on the NEO is here.
Tacx Flux: This is the wildcard player here. It’s priced $300+ cheaper than the Elite/CycleOps/Wahoo options above (at $899), but it also states a slightly lower accuracy level. Sound-wise it’s equal to or quieter than all but the NEO. Now here’s the thing on accuracy. Officially it specs +/- 5% accuracy, but that’s because they’re accounting for the warm-up period (10-15mins) in that claim. From my discussions with them it sounds like once you get beyond that, it’s very stable (possibly in the 1-3% range). Since calibration/warm-up is pretty normal on trainers, I don’t view this as a huge deal. If (and this is a BIG IF) they can truly get the final production units within 2-3% after warm-up, then it’ll dominate the above units due to the price. Oh, and they have to ship it. Right now Euro folks won’t see it till mid-late October, and other continents not till early November. So again, a few more catches. Perhaps buy some cold weather gear? Preview post on the Flux is here.
There are of course many other trainers out there, but I’ve tried to compare the KICKR to like units in terms of price, features, and accuracy levels. Expect my full annual trainer guide to be out at some point in September. I may break it into two pieces and give you a quick overview next week, then more details later in the month once I’ve got more time on the newer units (and to validate nothing comes out at Interbike, which I don’t expect).
Interview of note:
While at Eurobike, I interviewed Chip Hawkins, founder of Wahoo Fitness. We talked not only about Wahoo Fitness, but also about the KICKR2 (and the KICKR1) and many other things. I figured it might be of interest to folks here as well, so I’ve added it below:
Summary:
Overall, this latest trainer from Wahoo continues to be a strong option in the market. I think one of the strongest reasons you’d have for buying a Wahoo KICKR is simply app compatibility. It just has the highest number of apps supporting it. Of course, all the major apps (Zwift/TrainerRoad/Kinomap) support everyone, but when you get to some of the smaller apps (FulGaz for example), they’ll have more limited support for other trainers. Whereas basically every app supports the KICKR lineup.
On the sound front, there are quieter trainers out there. Wahoo officially states that they are quieter than the Drivo and Hammer, but I’m not so sure about that. I’d say the Drivo is quieter, but I still need to do a back and forth comparison. The Hammer would be a tough call. Of course, it’s not quieter than the NEO. But I think that at $400USD more, the NEO is somewhat in a different category (unless your budget situation makes it the same category).
From an accuracy standpoint, I see good things there when comparing it against other power meters. It’s working well for me, and I don’t see any drift that would be of concern either. The numbers match across a wide range of power levels, and the responsiveness of the unit in apps is good as well. What I don’t like though is the broadcasting of target power vs measured power, which can skew how well you did or didn’t do in a workout in situations where you miss the mark. The recorded data might show something that isn’t true. (Update: If Wahoo issues a software tweak/update as discussed this evening with them, my concern here will be resolved.)
The new KICKR is literally available to ship today, which none of the other new trainers this season can claim. Whether or not you need that new trainer this week is probably the bigger question though, and one you’ll have to decide for yourself.
With that – thanks for reading!
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Hopefully you found this review useful. At the end of the day, I’m an athlete just like you looking for the most detail possible on a new purchase – so my review is written from the standpoint of how I used the device. The reviews generally take a lot of hours to put together, so it’s a fair bit of work (and labor of love). As you probably noticed by looking below, I also take time to answer all the questions posted in the comments – and there’s quite a bit of detail in there as well.
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Since the Wahoo KICKR V2/2016 is no longer sold, I recommend looking at Wahoo KICKR V5/2020:
The original trainer desk. They're awesome for stacking (more)
The original trainer desk. They're awesome for stacking up nutrition, phones, and extra things you need for that short or long trainer ride. It can hold a tablet up on edge too.
The headwind fan is one of those fans that's probably overpriced, but it's also just a really darn good fan. I know of nobody (including myself) that's bought one that's unhappy with it. Super strong and you can turn it on from your phone if you forget.
This is a super basic trainer mat, which is exactly what you'll see me use. All it does is stop sweat for getting places it shouldn't (it also helps with vibrations too).
I use Apple TV for Zwift the vast majority of the time, but also just for watching YouTube/Netflix/etc on the trainer. The Apple TV remote sucks though. This $8 case fixes that, it's a silicone strap that makes it easy to grab, but also has a strap to easily place on the edge of your handlebars. Boom! Note: Not compatible with 2021 Apple TV Edition.
Here's the thing, some people like front wheel blocks, some don't. I'm one of the ones that do. I like my front wheel to stay put and not aimlessly wiggle around. For $8, this solves that problem. Note some trainers do come with them. Also note, I use a riser block with *every* trainer.
I've got three of these $12 fans floating around the DCR Cave, and I frequently use them on rides. They work just fine. Sure, they're not as powerful as a Wahoo Headwind, but I could literally buy 20 of them for the same price.
This desk is both a knock-off of the original KICKR Desk, but yet also better than it. First, it's got wheel locks (so the darn thing stays put), and second, it has two water bottle holders (also useful for putting other things like remotes). I've been using it as my main trainer desk for a long time now and love it. Cheaper is better apparently. Note: Branding varies by country, exact same desk.
This is by far the best value in trainer desks, at only $59, but with most of the features of the higher end features. It's got multi-tier tablet slots, water bottle holders, non-stick surface, adjustable height and more. I'm loving it!
One of the most popular trainer fans out there, rivaling the Wahoo Headwind fan in strength but at a fraction of the price. It doesn't have smartphone/ANT+/Bluetooth integration, but it does have secondary outlets. I've been using it, and a similiar European version lately with great success (exact EU variant I use is automatically linked at left).
I've had this for years, and use it in places where I don't have a big screen or desk, but just an iPad or tablet on my road bike bars.
And of course – you can always sign-up to be a DCR Supporter! That gets you an ad-free DCR, access to the DCR Quarantine Corner video series packed with behind the scenes tidbits...and it also makes you awesome. And being awesome is what it’s all about!
Thanks for reading! And as always, feel free to post comments or questions in the comments section below, I’ll be happy to try and answer them as quickly as possible. And lastly, if you felt this review was useful – I always appreciate feedback in the comments below. Thanks!
I just wanted to clarify, it’s not actually a new belt. The belt is the same as the original KICKR. It’s a few of the other internals that allow the new KICKR to be quieter. Unfortunately, there is no a way to convert the old KICKRs.
If you look at the cover picture, you can see that it’s a Gates timing belt 😉 Technically you could buy it anywhere that sells Gates (Napa, CarQuest, maybe Autozone, etc), but if you google the part number, one of the top results is direct from Wahoo! link to wahoofitness.com
Indeed, thanks for the clarity Tyler. Chip walked me through some of the additional hardware changes this evening down below in terms of spacing/etc.. that contributed to the much lower noise profile.
I know Kickr has gotten quite a bit of flak for power drift and other power inconsistencies, but part of me wonders if this was a cost-reduction driven decision. I.e. they removed the strain guage and how are they now measuring power? Is it just calculations? And is it true power or estimated power?
I’ll try and get Chip to give me a video walk-through explanation of the new measuring system and why he says it’s better. He walked me through it a bit tonight, but repeating all the science/logic behind it would be tough for me to do off the top of my head. It’s not just calculations, but rather additional sensors.
As for failure rates, keep in mind that also includes failures that they caught in QA between production lines and you, which was an aspect as well.
So I chatted with Chip tonight about it (albeit I think before/after the broadcast), and they think they know what’s going on there and it’s an easy change.
Essentially in ERG mode (what TR was using), it’s filtering out the accelerations in that broadcast, which is why I see such a ‘clean’ file. If you dig into the data deep enough, you do see slight variances. It was a decision they made to maximize stability output, but he agreed it didn’t seem to make much since in this case. Anyways, it sounded like a very simple firmware update change to just output a different metric instead.
KICKR firmware is pretty stable now, but if something comes out we will do updates. While I couldn’t put a number on it, we will still support the current KICKR for many many years.
Did you omit the actual price of the new unit? Is it priced the same? What is that price? Can’t find that info in the article. Everything else…. STELLAR!
With the VIP discount for this and the Garmin products, it’s 10% back in points. So you get it upon checkout. Which you can then immediately use to purchase something else (i.e. $120 worth of credit).
It’s the same price as the original KICKR, but not the new discounted price for the original KICKR. Meaning, it says at $1,199, whereas the original KICKR is currently discounted as a sell-off at $1,079.
Broadcasting target power versus measured seems like a complete joke. Post workout interval analysis basically is not possible unless you are recording from a separate PM. Did the Old Kickr do the same?
So I chatted with Chip tonight about it (albeit I think before/after the broadcast), and they think they know what’s going on there and it’s an easy change.
Essentially in ERG mode (what TR was using), it’s filtering out the accelerations in that broadcast, which is why I see such a ‘clean’ file. If you dig into the data deep enough, you do see slight variances. It was a decision they made to maximize stability output, but he agreed it didn’t seem to make much since in this case. Anyways, it sounded like a very simple firmware update change to just output a different metric instead.
Seconded. Hope it’s a permanent fixture in all trainer reviews going forward. Maybe Ray can work out/decide on a “standard to compare all trainers against”.
Yeah, I kinda plan to. I won’t necessarily compare it to every other trainer each time, but pick one that’s appropriate as a comparison (i.e. Drivo vs Neo, or Drivo vs KICKR, etc…).
any chance of a “from above” or “from front” pic of the diagonal block in front of the non drive side drop out?
Difficult to tell but it looks like it would get in the way of chain stay mounted disc brake.
For a post mount disc brake on chainstay the bottom of the post mount is about 15mm above the height of the top of the dropout & about ~15mm inboard of drop out.
A little concerning as from the picture the disc brake clearance looks closer than the Neo (with the Neo calipers often had to be removed) although obviously difficult to tell scale on internet pics
First off will also say: Ray, I have a ton of respect for your site – phenomenal reviews all around.
I actually recently began my cycling blog and have just received my Wahoo Kickr 2016. I ride a Cannondale Caadx and can definitively say that in my case, there were no issues whatsoever with my disc brake caliper. If you want to see more information / pictures of that set up: link to cyclehaven9w.blogspot.com
My pictures really don’t do the product justice, relative to Ray’s professional grade pics!
I wont be replacing my KICKR with a KICKR2, mostly because they didn’t change to yellow stripes on the flywheel like that one guy had this summer.
It is difficult to measure, but my biggest complaint about the KICKR was its ability to keep up with big changes in wattage. Has that improved? The text says so but no wored on how it feels.
Hope you didn’t injure yourself during this review, resulting in going ‘out on a limp’…. (it should be ‘limb’, and while I know you appreciate corrections I still feel mean! /grammarnazi).
Kudos on the Ray vs Ray video, all it was missing was some snide remarks to other-Ray about his effort/cupcake penchant ?
On the split-screen, it actually wasn’t something I had planned before hand. I had planned to just do a simple cut back and forth. Had I planned it, I might have had more fun with it. Next time. 🙂
But I was doing some split-screen stuff for the VIRB + GoPro videos, and came up with the idea there.
Great review, Ray.
I hope this makes it into a prize draw at some point. I’d love the opportunity to win it, it looks perfect for me. I’d buy one but, yeah, student and all :-\
Keep up the good work!
Definitely quieter and a far nicer tone to it. Big fan of the kickr but given how close the pricing is between kickr and Neo here in the UK I think most people will probably go Neo. Unless you need the more flexible fitments that the kickr gives you.
I purchased the “old” KICKR a month ago, but I was curious about how the new KICKR might differ. Regarding the noise, the whine produced by the KICKR is louder than any other trainer I’ve used. However, I’ve gotten used to it and actually kinda like it! Fumbling around underneath the unit to make the electrical connection is not ideal, but it’s manageable. From my perspective, the most significant improvement in the new KICKR is that of the handle. I think the handle on my old unit is practically useless.
The biggest problem I’ve had with my KICKR is the cassette. With the original cassette, the chain made quite a racket! I swapped it out for a Dura Ace cassette I had lying around, and it improved – but it’s still not optimal. In this respect, it’s rather temperamental. One minute it’s humming along without any problems, and the next minute the chattering starts. To be honest, this behavior is usually triggered when I change gears. Frequently I can recover by fiddling with the gears. Anyway, even my old KICKR is a significant improvement over the “smart” trainer it replaced. Now, if only I could retrofit the new handle!
I wonder if it is even possible to transmit actual power data since an algorithm is feeding the power input for electromagnetic resistance. Thus another algorithm would be necessary to calculate speed of the flywheel to extrapolate power, wouldn’t this just be sort of a feedback loop???
So I chatted with Chip tonight about it (albeit I think before/after the broadcast), and they think they know what’s going on there and it’s an easy change.
Essentially in ERG mode (what TR was using), it’s filtering out the accelerations in that broadcast, which is why I see such a ‘clean’ file. If you dig into the data deep enough, you do see slight variances. It was a decision they made to maximize stability output, but he agreed it didn’t seem to make much since in this case. Anyways, it sounded like a very simple firmware update change to just output a different metric instead.
Ray – I am still a die hard Computrainer user. I use it with the PerfPro software and it is awesome. I notice that at the end of articles like these, you never include the Computrainer in the comparison section. As far as I can tell, the Computrainer is more accurate that just about everything else and it can simulate greater grades. I know that it is a dinosaur and the hardware is pretty blah, but is there a reason that you never include it? PS – great article, as always. Thanks for all the work you do here.
The CompuTrainer isn’t more accurate than these trainers these days (in fact, it’s well known to drift quite a bit in the first 10-15 mins).
Max resistance appears to be 15%, which is below what the top-end trainers are offering these days (KICKR, NEO, etc..). It tops out at 1,500w, which is in the ballpark s others, though typically you’d get slippage above that (versus direct drive you’d just spin-out). It’s also more expenisve ($1,600).
But more than that, I just can’t recommend it on really any level. I could see if you could get a unit for maybe $500 (used), maybe. But that’s it. I know there are a handful of people that do have random connectivity issues with wireless trainers, but that doesn’t even make up a fraction of a percent of the interest-traffic I see.
Yes, based on the conditions I’ve been able to listen to the latest unit from Tacx in, I think it is. But, I haven’t managed to drag it away to a silent room yet somewhere.
Target power is the power level you tell the KICKR to set in ERG mode (not applicable to other modes). i.e. I tell it to use 250w, and the KICKR will hold that. But, there’s aspects such as if you instantly sprint out of nowhere that it’ll fluctuate a bit – so that’s measured power.
For current users… How do you have your head unit set up if you already have a PM on your bikes? Do you record the output from the powermeter or the Kickr? Do you display them both while on the trainer?
And has anyone used this with GoldenCheetah? I’m thinking I would use GC to set up workouts, and not even bother connecting to it via my GPS unit.
I wonder if a new version of the Snap will be coming out? I had one, the power accuracy was a joke, exchanged it and the replacement also had awful power accuracy. In the end I returned the second one for a refund.
I have accuracy issues with my 1. Gen Kickr and I still have warranty.
In the past contacting Wahoo’s support was pretty useless, just got some standard response on how all powermeters are different and bla bla bla. Not really addressing the issue that my three powermeters report all about the same and only the Kickr would report (to a varying degree) totally different numbers.
Based on this “They also said it more importantly reduced failures, specifically noting during a call: “We found that the [original KICKR] strain gauge was sensitive, and had a high failure rate.” And thus when they “eliminated the strain gauge, it reduced failure rate”. This may help to explain why some people had accuracy problems with the KICKR, yet others had no issues at all. Failure may also not be black and white in this case either, especially when looking at components such as this gauge.”
Can I claim warranty? I definitely won’t buy another product from such a company but since I’ve already spent so much money I’d like to improve the situation. At the moment I need a second powermeter to get accurate and above all consistent wattage readings.
And I won’t start complaining about the “silence” claim.
Great review! Would love to see a video comparison of the sound of the new Kickr vs the Cycleops Hammer in the same setting. By looking at your video preview of the Hammer it seems to me that its pitch is lower though the rated decibels are higher. Which one do you think is quieter?
Once I get a production Hammer I will do the same. Now that I’ve kinda figured out the trick to doing those videos, it’s pretty easy for me to knock out.
I actually don’t know which one will be quieter. At this point it’s been 3+ months since I touched a Hammer, and the sound conditions were vastly different from the KICKR (in terms of environment). Also, I get the impression there’s been some Hammer internal changes too. So, I’d say any past judgements should be taken with a grain of salt until we see something.
Curious how nü-KICKR compares to the original KICKR on these 2 points:
“2) Increase precision: A change to the hardware will increase their accuracy claims and reduce failures
3) Improve Responsiveness: Another hardware change increases the responsiveness of the unit during massive instant leaps of power (i.e. 150w to 500w).”
Did you notice improvements in both areas? In your review of the original KICKR it tracked closely to Quarq and Stages readings, but I don’t know where to look to see if nü-KICKR is tracking even better. And whether or not responsiveness has improved between KICKRs requires a qualitative assessment that is not mentioned here.
Would like if you’d included the original KICKR in the trainer comparison section, though granted owners of the original are probably not the intended market.
Hello,
am I getting it right that there is no way of syncing the 1300€-Kickr with Garmin Connect due to restrictions by Garmin?
I downloaded the Wahoo-Fitness-App and syncing to Garmin Connect is still provided the menu but not executed sucessfully!?
Thanks for clarification!
Hi. I try to monitor responses but there’s a lot to keep up with. Apologies if this has already been addressed.
Is there any “road feel” difference between the Tacx Neo and the KICKR2? For example, do they feel any different when resistance is increased/decreased during intervals? Or in the feedback you get when you’re “letting off the gas” or “keeping the pressure on”? If apps and “feel” are my deciding criteria (not noise, not precision, not price) is there a big difference between the Neo and the KICKR.
How did the NP compare for your interval sessions between the quarq, P1, and Kickr? Specifically in the 30×30 session. Another user in the wattage forum saw significantly less output from what the kickr was reporting to TR when monitoring with a P2M (251 NP vs 233 NP). See thread here: link to groups.google.com
Would be interesting if the firmware update you have mentioned would report closer to actual values like you observed when riding in zwift.
So, in re-reading that, I think it may have been TR + the older protocol being your cause. I’d try BT, or, triple-check it’s connecting on FE-C on ANT+ instead of the old ANT protocol on KICKR.
My workout shown above sounds pretty similar to yours. You can see that wandering when TR was having connection issues on older protocol, and they saw that in the logs. This is likely caused by WiFi/etc…, whereas FE-C and BT are better (with BT being best as it channel hops).
Shoot me a note if you want to use any of the analysis tools and I’ll get you hooked up. You’ll just need to be able to do concurrent recording of your data sources (i.e. one PM attached to one head unit, another to another).
Thanks. Yeah so I was connected via BT for that workout. Was really hoping that the new model would solve these power discrepancy issues. Fingers crossed a firmware update will help.
Wahoo KICKR Bluetooth Connection
Recorded KICKR power data
No dropouts
Those little dips are just him not pedaling, as shown on his other TP graph which I’m assuming is another power meter that was used during the session.
The KICKR really smooths the data out and you get those artificially smoothed lines. Then, when you stop pedaling, it kinda keeps reporting your power for a bit then drops to zero.
So what the TR ride vs the TP graph represent are the difference in power measurement between a KICKR and a P2M (which I think Jeff was asking about).
We’ve built a feature we call PowerMatch which tries to adjust for the difference between the KICKR and your power meter. One thing to realize is that once you pair a power meter your power is NOT going to be super smooth and exactly on like the KICKR reports.
Jeff’s TP graph tells the tale pretty well. Although the KICKR reports exactly perfect intervals, the first five sets of intervals on the TP side reduce in wattage.
Not sure I saw this asked directly or commented on but if I have the original kickr and mainly use TR app for my rides – is the kickr2 enough of an improvement to consider making the investment to upgrade.
The main improvement is a 14% reduction in noise level with change in noise tone. Unless you are unhappy with the noise level, the expenditure doesn’t seem warranted.
Believe Neo is much quieter than new Kickr and zwift can shake your Neo.
However, new Kickr doesn’t have the frame compatibility issue.
Furthermore, new Kickr has a handlebar and it is easier to move around.
it is hard to make the decision…
really difficult for me too the decision. Here in europe the price difference is not so high and i really don’t care about the noise level (I have a lemond revolution now, it seem like a space shuttle even at 150watt but i love the incredible road feel it brings).
what i’m looking for is the possibility to sim bike courses i need (mostly european ironmans) and to create custom workouts because i’ve a coach and i only need to build what he ask me ( such as 3 hill ad 10% for example) so i don’t need TR programs or similar ones.
Ray i hope i can use a kickr or a neo as i use a lemond revolution…as a ‘plain simulator’ in short words.
I just want make sure I understand the definition of direct drive. Although all of them are of the wheel-off design, between the KICKR, the Hammer and the Neo, only the Hammer and the Neo would be considered direct drive. Is that correct?
The generally accepted industry term for direct drive is basically anything without a wheel on the bike.
There is a tiny handful of people that want that to mean something more strict, but realistically all but the NEO have some level of belt system within them.
Thanks for the review. I was planning to get a Kickr Snap in a few weeks, but reading comments about power inaccuracies, the hassle of having to do a spin down 10 minutes into each ride, and the availability of an updated Kickr, would you recommend I go for the new Kickr instead?
I had the same question. I really wanted the Kickr Snap too but can’t justify $500 more for the Kickr2. To me, that’s significant. The real question is, does the supposed PM reading really make a big difference in training? I mean, is the SNAP that inaccurate or is this just becoming an Internet rumor. Reading DCRs review, I thought it tracked reasonably accurately. Also, I didn’t get the impression one needs to do the spimdown before every ride . Guess I’m just thoroughly confused. Can anyone clarify?
I see a 5-8 watt difference to my P1’s. The real difference is speed measurement that my bike computer sees (real speed) vs Kickr snap. I have not tracked that down. Look up Chris Benten on Strava. I post both Wahoo and what the Garmin sees.
I will check my setup but the speed difference is not consistent. Zwift is faster going downhill and slower going up. Reading is approximately the same around 20-22 mph.
I have a Neo and a Kickr. My Zwift setup is with the Neo. One thing that I have noticed (mostly in races) is that if I am in a group and I stop pedaling even for a second, I lose all sense of inertia and really have to hammer to get back on a wheel, so I always keep pressure on the pedals, even if I’m just soft pedaling. I assumed the virtual flywheel would be programmed to allow you to coast a bit without losing that inertia. I have not ridden the kickr enough on Zwift to remember if it does the same, but I think the flywheel does that inherently. Has anyone else experienced this with the Neo .
I have the original Kickr and spend way too much time on it with TrainerRoad. I dealt with the noise issues the same way you suggested, just put it in a slower gear so it doesn’t turn as fast. What really torques me off about the unit is that for $1000+, they couldn’t put a damn $0.50 switch on it to turn it on and off? Sounds like they didn’t do it with this one either. Since I don’t like leaving electronics on all the time, I have it plugged into a surge protector. A nit, but one that I’m reminded of everytime I use it.
Hi Ray, I picked up the new KICKR from CT recently. Thanks for the discount! Well, not a technically a discount; “rebate points” would probably be more accurate. But definitely thanks!
In any event, have you noticed that wattage tends to drift downwards as the KICKR warms up, just like rolling resistance drops as a roller-based trainer (e.g. a Computrainer) warms up? I rode a test workout this weekend comparing wattage reported from my Power2Max Type-S power meter against power reported from my Wahoo KICKR as I was riding an easy set of short test intervals in PerfPro Studio (I wanted to keep the effort relatively easy so I could keep my cadence and pedal stroke even between efforts). This was starting from a totally cold trainer. On all of the intervals, the KICKR reported dead even watts, maybe fluctuating by a watt here and there. The Power2Max fluctuated a lot– as all regular power meters do– the image attached is smoothed to 20 seconds. My P2M always reports a little on the high side. But what concerns me is how the P2M line is getting closer between sets to the KICKR line. In fact, the average of my P2M data over the first interval is 235 watts while the average over the third interval is 226 watts. After this interval set, I kept riding and experimenting. I eventually shut down my PC and just let my ELEMNT control my KICKR. When I rode the exact same interval set, my P2M reported an average of 222 watts (image of ELEMNT-controlled ride not shown). So that’s a drop of 13 watts (about 6%) over the course of about 30 minutes— well outside the claimed error tolerances of both Power2Max and the KICKR as far as I can tell.
Fortunately, PerfPro allows the power meter to control the trainer, which may be my workaround. But I was still hoping that watts would be more consistent between devices than this experience demonstrates.
Interesting, I haven’t seen any drift like that. I can’t remember off-hand, but it would be interesting to grab the zero offset values from the P2M before and after the ride – as that would narrow down which of the two are actually drifting. 🙂
Well, it did feel a bit harder at the beginning than at the end, so I’m hoping that it was the KICKR that drifted. 😉 I didn’t go into the test with the expectation that there was going be a drift so I didn’t record my zero offset before and after. I’ll take a look at that next time I do a comparison ride.
As far as the KICKR is concerned, I thought that a spin down calibration was only required every 2 weeks or so or after the unit has been moved? I hope using the “new and improved” version of the KICKR doesn’t mean that I have to treat it like my 15 year old Computrainer and do a spin down every time I ride it after I’ve warmed up. Certainly, the product documentation didn’t tell me that.
I’m quite distrustful of the power reading off the KICKR until someone can convince me otherwise. First, the elimination of strain gauges is a big concern. What did they replace them with to actually MEASURE watts? Second, the reported data is just a little too even for my comfort level. There are huge wattage differences at different points of the cadence cycle and the fact that I get such perfectly smooth watts raises a huge red flag for me. I was hoping that this would be addressed in the firmware update, which hasn’t yet appeared. Now with the potential power drift, I’m even more concerned.
it is what scares me. I don’t have a PM on the bike so when i read issues like the one happend to Ken the first thing i think is that if it’s happened to me I would not have noticed anything with a lot of wasted time on my kickr.
that’s why i’m waiting for the tacx neo indeep review from ray.
Just to clarify – did you do any calibration/roll-down?
Wahoo still recommends it for the most accuracy. Things like temperature variances being a bigger impact.
As for elimination of the strain gauages, I recorded a big-long thing with Chip about it before I left Eurobike. But as it seems anytime I record any audio with Chip, he has some wonky forcefield that just hoses up any audio sessions I do with him. I may put up the clunky audio version here in the comments for those curious, and then re-record it next week at Interbike. But he goes into great detail on why the new method is better, and how they’re actually looking to roll it back to V1 KICKR’s as well to improve accuracy there.
For it looking too smooth, I talk about that up above in the post with TrainerRoad and the change they’re (Wahoo) going to make to make it look right. It’s a minor firmware tweak on how they handle in ERG mode what they broadcast.
Yup. I did a spin down calibration of the KICKR right after I set it up. I used the Wahoo app and it did seem to hang a few times but eventually it succeeded.
I’m hoping this is just a minor hiccup that comes with any new product. It would be really interesting to know how eliminating strain gauges resulted in a more accurate product. I’m hoping it’s not just a cost-saving move and really is more accurate. Can’t wait for the firmware update!
Spin down should not be necessary with every ride. I would only be concerned about a rolldown if you notice your offset drifting with increasing temperature, thats why I would check at different points just once during a workout.
As for it feeling easier at the end of an interval 2 things. 1) What gear and or what speed are you using erg mode in? I posted data above from a different user who saw such drift, but he was running 53-11 and the resistance unit couldn’t keep up at those speeds. I can post a link to the data but when switching to a more reasonable gearing his NP between a PM and the kickr were within a watt of each other. 2) What is your HR telling you? Is it drifting downward on such intervals or are these really short intervals?? I find my HR tracks remarkably to changes in wattage on the new kickr. It does feel that changes in cadence can take the resistance unit a second or two to equilibrate.
Thanks Jeff! I wasn’t pushing anything nearly as large as a 53×11. I’m not one of those guys who pushes their trainers at 35+ mph to make their trainers smooth out their efforts. We all know folks who do that, right? ;-). The first interval could have hurt more just because, well frankly, it was the first interval. I wasn’t warmed up (I noted that the trainer was cold when I started) so everything hurt. I get that a trainer that relies on tire pressure needs a spin down with every workout because roller pressure is going to vary every time the bike is inserted or removed. But I wouldn’t expect a slight temperature change of about 5 degrees to make a 6% difference in a direct drive trainer– especially when that bike hadn’t moved since I did a spin down the day before. As a side note, your reply gave me an uh-oh moment when you mentioned that the KICKR’s resistance unit couldn’t keep up with the high speeds associated with another rider’s 53×11 gearing. I’m not sure that’s what you meant, unless this guy was super human; a KICKR should be able to generate accurate resistance within the speeds that us mere mortals can ride. On the other hand, I could imagine that measuring power off a system with a heavy flywheel spinning ridiculously fast could introduce drift when compared to another power meter much further “upstream” (such as a pedal based PM) that is moving much more slowly. Thanks also for the tip about heart rate. As this was an effort to test to KICKR and not to test me, I wasn’t wearing an HRM. I’m a touch leery about putting much faith on HR indoors, though, because MY temperature during indoor workouts fluctuates enormously and definitely tends to drift. Unfortunately I don’t think it would advisable for me to do a spin down calibration of that. 😉
Yes you are correct, now that I see your data, the problem is different for a user in such big gearing. It was the latter, they observed drift (actual power drifting lower) WITHIN an interval as measured upstream (crank) of the crazy fast spinning flywheel, not drift between repeated efforts.
FWIW here is a 5×5 I did last week on the new kickr. Power vs HR were very consistent for the first 4 intervals, ignore the last interval where I increased the wattage. When working out indoors I use a really big arse fan, hydrate well, and ride shirtless. Also most efforts are less than 90 minutes. As such (within said time frame) I generally observe very little aerobic decoupling with repeat efforts, neither it seems with my new kickr nor did it seem to happen with my old trainer (using a powertap and an on wheel trainer)
“New” kickr just arrived from the big brown truck, bought direct from Wahoo. There is side-to-side play/wobble in the main shaft that my 1st gen does not have, doesn’t seem right. The securing bolt seems tight. Can anyone tell me if this is normal? A quick YouTube video here: link to youtu.be
The hand bolt/knob which secures the wheel size is tight yes. The play mostly comes from the back of the unit where the (flex arm?) meets the base. There is a bolt there which is tight as well. My “original” kickr has no such play whatsoever. I agree, I’m thinking this is not normal.
“What’s really interesting here is that the KICKR is simply broadcasting the target power, and not the actual power.” I don’t think this is interesting at all – reporting target power instead of real power is basically cheating! Even if they change it with the software update, since they don’t have built in powermeter even their reported “real” power values will be also rough (ideally +/-2%) estimates that are dependent on the effectiveness of their temperature compensation algorithms and assume that trainer works exactly as ideally intended by the factory. Any play in bearings due to wear or some other small imperfection will distort these “real” power values and Kickr power will be way off I guess. You can see such worrying results already reported even in comments above. So as I understand, the Elite Divo beats the new Kickr hands down except the looks. Kickr looks really cool as Divo resembles some ugly vacuum cleaner or something. Until Kickr doesn’t include real error prone powermeter as Divo does they are not even in the same league. Ray seems to have some soft spot towards Kickr that’s why it didn’t get devastating review I guess.
I always like when folks literally make things up along the way, this being a prime example of it.
A) It currently does this *reporting* of power in ERG mode, which Wahoo has already stated they’ll change. That was my concern, and hence why I used the word ‘interesting’, which is often used in a variety of contexts. Of course, the underlying controlled power is accurate, as shown in those graphs. You’re skipping over that really important fact.
B) What bearings specifically are you referring to? This is where I insert the ‘you have no idea what you’re talking about’ card.
C) As noted above, I’ve got a detailed KICKR Power Meter Strain Gauge Q&A with Chip that I shot at Eurobike that I wanted to post. But the audio is mostly hosed up, so I’m just going to re-shoot it at Eurobike, but I’ll still try and put together something to link to here temporarily until then, as bad as the audio may be.
D) In general, I find it more useful to talk to the engineers that actually built the products about the technologies that are inside them, than folks that go around saying the bearings are going to wear down and cause accuracy issues…when…ummm..yeah, bearings.
Sorry, if my comment above was not on the “bright side” :). By “bearings wear” I actually meant any moving mechanical part Kickr has. Anyway maybe it helps stupid me to understand the whole issue if somebody simply explains how exactly the new Kickr measures or estimates the power.
Here’s the video I shot from Eurobike with Chip from Wahoo Fitness discussing everything you ever wanted to know about the strain gauge in the KICKR (and lack thereof in KICKR2).
HOWEVER, be warned again that the audio is horrible (at least by my standards). It’s perfectly listenable and easy to understand 99.9% of the words spoken, but the mics were doing something weird.
Thanks for the video, Ray! Very helpful and enlightening. I don’t doubt Chip’s reasoning and Wahoo’s idea that the new KICKR is super accurate. Also, he makes a great point about how power spikes after an acceleration and so the brake shouldn’t oscillate after big power jumps to accommodate that (that happened all the time on my old Computrainer). Plus, his points about the differences between outdoor and indoor riding make sense. Well, to a point… At the end of the day, most of us ride outdoors with strain gauge based power meter and so we expect our trainers to report wattage like a strain gauge based power meter. I’m also still getting weird differences in my data (now my Power2Max is reading 10w lower than my KICKR when it was just the opposite less than a week ago). Is it the KICKR, my Power2Max, or just the difference between a strain gauge system versus a system that uses a well-modeled brake? Who knows? Or I could be one of those two or three units that come back in a typical week for them. Otherwise, it’s a great unit and I’m super glad I have it. I do wish, however, that it was a few months from now and that I have all the firmware updates that Wahoo is implementing.
I am seeing the same thing – previously Kickr was reading high relative to my P2M, now it’s reading 10-15 watts lower than my P2M. If this was consistent I wouldn’t care so much but it’s concerning that sometimes it’s high and sometimes it’s low. Will do a workout tonight and post results.
Well, that does it for me! I hoped that new Kickr will finally resolve power accuracy issues my old one always had but apparently not. The Kickr was a great trainer some years ago and we must credit it as Wahoo started that all open connection protocol training software connection thing. But now the market has much better alternatives. I deffinitely will upgrade to Elite Drivo so I don’t need to swap my P2M powermer any more between the old trainer bike and my main racing bike to control the trainer with trainer relay. I guess Kickr is still fine to someone casually training but for anybody seriously doing power based training the lack of accuracy and drifting power values are not acceptable at all.
Both. I did Geiger (sweet spot workout) last night. Had to dial intensity on TR down to hit targets. TR/Kickr gave NP of 217. P2M recording on 810 gave me NP of 231. Inverse of what I experienced previously, though that was a different wattage range. (See post 79) I did a spindown after a workout per Wahoo support a couple of days ago, could be related to that.
Haha… it’s funny Fritz that I’m wondering just the opposite this morning. Just how accurate is my Power2Max when it comes to temperature variations? Who knows? It may we’ll be that the KICKR is the far more accurate technology when it comes to implementing a load on a trainer– or maybe not. Or is this just inevitable when comparing a calibrated brake against a strain gauge? Or will this all change when the firmware upgrade that Chip mentioned comes around? Should be an interesting few months as this all shakes out with Wahoo.
What I’ve learned with power meter testing over the years is that they are far more variable than people realize. One day one will be slightly higher than another, the next day inverted. Very often very little reason or rhyme. It’s something that you don’t really notice until you’ve done a crapton of power meter data collection with 3 or more units to start really seeing the pattern of lack of patterns.
Hard to know without more controlled testing, perhaps with multiple units and power meters we could find out, but I totally agree with you Ken. Even then I think you need something even more concrete than one against the other, such as comparison to a high precision dynamometer. I’m not saying the Kickr is necessarily free of imperfection, but all we truly have at this point is anecdotal evidence.
Totally agree. Sometimes I fall in the trap of expecting perfectly reliability between power meters but after comparing power meters, I know that isn’t true. The new KICKR puts this issue under a magnifying glass because of their change from a strain gauge to a calibrated brake. My gut feeling is that the latter approach might be the right one after all. But, we’ll see. Maybe the inconsistencies between power meters might be a great blog post in the future for Ray as it may defuse the perfect reliability that some readers expect from these products.
Long story short, main differences between Kickr1 & Kickr2:
1. New handle.
2. No built-in real powermeter any more.
3. In Erg mode broadcasts only target power that you have set in Traineroad and know anyway.
Did I miss something?
Hi Ray,
I am not using eletronic trainers but am thinking on getting the kickr. I am already a zwift user and use it with my quarq. If I use it with the kickr, will I have to do any sort of programming with garmin or the wahoo head unit or it will be just setting the training with intervals and goal watts on zwift? Thanks. It might be a dumb question…
Thanks for this great review ! It motivated me to replace my old-dusty Elite trainer. Smart training is fascinating. ERG mode paired with TrainerRoad app is something any cyclist who want to access to the “next level” should experience.
Did not have time to compare accuracy of the Kickr with my PowerTap pedals. Will have a look this coming week-end.
But one of the great thing to mention is how super-quiet the Kickr is ! With ERG mode, you can almost stay on 34×21 all the time, the trainer will adapt resistance automatically. Don’t foget that the lower gear you’ll use, the quieter your trainer will be. Forget about the speed (and distance), just focus on power.
Both the old and the new Kickr can be made quieter by carefully adjusting the belt tightness through the spindown time. ( This can be found online in a Wahoo Fitness Youtube video – 2 simple adjustments.) Contrary to some online sources, the correct spin-down time should be about 23 seconds, not 15. I verified this with the good people at Wahoo Fitness. A shorter spindown time means the belt is tighter. As it tightens it puts more tension on the spinning parts inside, creating more noise. There is a happy medium where the belt will not slip but moves smoothly and as quietly as possible. Yes, the new Kickr is quieter than the old – noticeably so, but both benefit from proper adjustment to further reduce noise. My new Kickr arrived from Wahoo with a spindown time of 19 seconds but I made it even quieter by changing the time to 23 seconds. Don’t be afraid to experiment and tweak this adjustment a bit.
Great info. I only just realised that the spindown time on mine (42 seconds!) was way too high. After logging a support case with Wahoo, I was told to tighten the belt as per the video.
I’ve since done this, and my spindown time is down to 30 seconds. A massive improvement, but still need to knock another 7 seconds of that. However, I’m a little worried about tightening the belt much more — there’s a few horror stories out there of belts snapping :\
Oh, after tightening the belt, I’ve also noticed almost a squeak/whirring sounds that chops in and out at higher flywheel speeds.
I am considering purchasing a 2016 second generation Wahoo Kickr for use on Zwift. Would you (or readers who use the new Kickr / Tacx Neo) mind sharing your thoughts on the following points:
1. How quick is the Kickr to respond when you sprint (in seconds) e.g. from 250 Watts to 500 / 750 / 1,000 Watts? How does the speed of response to power changes compare to the Tacx Neo when you sprint?
3. What is the free wheel like down hill on Zwift on the new Kickr? Do you find yourself getting dropped or having to put down power to stay with a group while they free wheel? How does it compare to the Tacx Neo?
I own a Kickr(original) and I don’t have any of the power problems others have had. But my trainer hardly ever moves. It’s basically at my work and I use it 2 times per week.
I have ordered a Drivo but after listening to the interview and the fact the Drivo just got pushed back to mid Oct. I’m thinking about cancelling and just getting the Kickr16(2). Problem is, after looking at actual price of all these new trainers, the Kickr is over-priced. Although the Drivo MSRP is $1,299 and the Hammer is $1,199 they are really 20% cheaper. I got pre-ordered the Drivo from Performance for $150 cheaper than I could get the Kickr because Wahoo doesn’t allow sales. I could pre-order the Hammer for $200 cheaper than the kickr. You can get the Neo for $100.00 more than the Kickr..When the Flux comes in with a MSRP of $899, the real price will be $675..Then what?
if Kickr were smarter than they already are. They would drop there prices now, I know a lot of people are waiting for all these new trainers to come out. But they are waiting….Waiting for the new NEO, waiting for the Drivo, waiting for the Hammer, waiting for the Flux…..If Wahoo dropped their price, a lot of people would stop waiting.
Has there been any word on when Wahoo will issue the software fix for the TrainerRoad erg mode? I’m looking into getting one and this seems like something that would be a major deal breaker.
I just received the 2016 today. There was a Firmware update(3.1.1) but no release notes, so I’m not sure if it was the one everyone is looking for.
I played around with it for about a hour. It’s accurate. It’s so in sync with my SRM I spent about 20 minutes fixing a problem that didn’t exist. I set up 2 riders/trainers in Perfpro one with SRM and the other w/ Kickr2016. I seriously kept updating the SRM offeset and making sure the profiles were different. The numbers were too close all the time. I thought the Kickr profile was picking up the SRM signal..At the end I had the phone app running with Perfpro for the Kickr. Garmin and another profile running for the SRM. I guess it’s like what Joe Dirt’s Dad would say,”Its just does”.They are tide together. Within a watt or 3 half the time and exactly the same the rest of the time. I was getting annoyed thinking something was wrong.
It’s very responsive. It reacts instantly to interval changes at twice the speed. I changed the Interval offset from 3sec to 1 second in Perfpro because it was hitting the intervals way faster. God forbid I do a VO2 effort 2 seconds longer than need be.
Anyways, very happy with the trainer. Right now I’m not really worried about the erg stuff. Just doesn’t seem that noticeable.Then again, I could have gotten the update.But if I didn’t, I trust it will come and It wouldn’t make the slightest difference in actual work performed.
Way easier to carry, fixed the problem with Di2 11s derailleurs topping out in 10th gear, and a tiny teeny weenie bit quieter. You actually need the other one next to it to realize it’s quieter. I couldn’t tell the difference without putting the bike on the other one and thinking..Oh, yeah, I guess it is.
+1 Heith. While I had some initial adjustment pains to the 2016 Kickr, I’m now convinced it an absolutely incredible trainer– best one I’ve ever owned. I’ve never been on a trainer that can hold such steady watts and that can adjust so quickly to changes in wattage. For instance, I could never do something like 30 seconds maxVO2 intervals effectively on other trainers because they would take at least 5 seconds to get to a steady value. Not so with the KICKR. Tonight, for instance, I did a 2 x 20min effort at a moderate wattage but some sudden jumps. The watts on my Power2Max (which is shown smoothed to 20 seconds so isn’t as “crisp” as the raw data) reacts pretty much immediately with the change in wattage. Thanks also for the tip on the PerfPro interval offset! Definitely needed for such an reactive trainer as the new KICKR.
All the videos I’ve seen are with a previous version of the Wahoo Utility app. I am using the current version on current iOS. Not sure how to do it. Anyone done it on this setup?
Update and notes after yesterdays full workout.
Ok, there’s a break-in period with this trainer. I’ve found the Temp doesn’t matter that much because I think the new sensors take care of that pretty well. But the coast down numbers did matter with mine.
So, on day 1, I play with it and did a coast-down after initial warm-up 15.4sec@90f(32.2c) from that point on, it was spot on w/SRM. I let it cool and tested without a spin-down and it stayed spot on. I then warmed it back up, did another spindown about 1.5 hours after playing with it.19sec 38c. Still very accurate.
Day 2: I did a 1:40′ workout in erg mode with a-lot or low inertia work in the small ring. I noticed a little drift so I zeroed the SRM it went from 465 to 460 during that time..Not enough to change anything, SRM’s are pretty stable. I then did a spin-down/coast-down which came back at 24.5mph @108F, 10sec longer than original. At that point, the trainer was off.reading 15w-19w lower than SRM, making the workout a little too hard.
I also noticed the machine got much quieter than from day 1. Noticeably quieter than the original Kickr.
So I got off quickly, tension-ed the belt following the instructions from Wahoo’s youtube video I previously watched. Did a spin-down(16sec 104F) and everything was back on target.
So, with my unit after a couple days from the factory it needed a minor adjustment after it broke in. Not sure if this is normal but it seems the belt and bearing break-in a little fairly quickly. So if you have any issues, first make sure the belt tension is between 15 and 19sec.
Also should note, I thought once I tighten the belt back up it would get loud again. It didn’t seem to, so that’s good.
I’ve done several spin-downs since and they have all come back around 15.8-16.5sec so the belt hasn’t slackened since. It could have also have been a slightly loose pinch bolt..Maybe the belt never stretched at all. Either way, the belt slightly slackened after 3 hours of initial use and that cause a longer coast-down which seemed to effect wattage while temp hasn’t. Not a big deal but thought I should note here.
I’m getting mixed info on this through-out the net. I’m in no way saying you’re not right, nor that these guys are wrong. Maybe Wahoo can chime in at some point. link to support.zwift.com coment
I know mine seems to work better with my PM at this range. I just used SpeedyCal android app to check my SRM and the slope is correct. avg.26.77 set 26.8
Did she give you a spindown range or just say that the video isn’t correct? My experience with Wahoo support is that while they try to be helpful, they don’t know how their products works.
Kickr has been working great since I started using power match (auto setting). When I tried it on the old Kickr it felt like the power fluctuated wildly every 10 seconds as the Kickr adjusted but I don’t really notice that with the new Kickr. I have been doing a lot of sweet spot stuff and I am hitting intervals within a watt or two and my kJ and TSS are bang on for the workout. Haven’t done any shorter vo2max stuff with the power match on though, might not work as well for that stuff.
Are you referring to the power match in TrainerRoad or in the Kickr configuration in the Wahoo Fitness App. I never successfully got it working from the Wahoo Fitness App.
There isn’t a Garmin Connect Discussion thread, so I am posting this here.
Wahoo says Garmin is preventing the upload of ride data to GC. Is this Garmin BS? Ray, can you tell Garmin how many of us are very disappointed in this unfriendly action? Why did Garmin do this? Do they really need ransom $?
They’re mostly correct. I’m not sure what 3rd party apps are still faking uploads, I’m sure some, as I’m sure it’s still technically possible. But Garmin has continued to clamp down on it. And it’s actually not the $5K fee thing. They just don’t have an API for ingest of data (only export).
Previously, companies basically faked being a user to upload data (my guess is some still do).
thanks. So no workaround…Wahoo mentioned to me to upload to GC from Strava…
I currently move data from GC to Strava. Do I have to enable connecting to GC from within Strava now?
Have had the new Kickr for a couple of weeks now and seem to have an issue with power readings relative to those from my Stages PM. The Kickr is giving readings around 20% lower than I have been getting on the Stages either indoor or on the road. I am not too worried which is more accurate but at the moment I have no comparable data from the two and will need to use a lower FTP on the kickr (200 as opposed to 240 on the stages) which is not ideal. I have done a number of spin downs with the time coming in around 15s which seems a bit low according to advice on here and I guess that might be the problem. Am using either the Wahoo app or Zwift and getting the same readings. Any help appreciated, am currently busting myself to put out what kickr is saying is 250W and I know it isn’t!
Thanks
I have a Kickr 14 (old Kickr), and I have always had an offset between the Kickr and Stages power meter which gradually changes during a workout. I’m currently evaluating a beta version of firmware which calculates power without the strain gauge similar to the new Kickr, and I still have an offset, although the offset behaves differently than when using the strain gauge. I have been collecting graphs of the data and the offset is not consistent during the ride, sometimes having a jump and then having a fairly stable offset again at a different value.
The way I deal with the offset is to manually adjust the offset in TrainerRoad as I do the workout, and I feel better about that than having TrainerRoad try to automatically adjust for the offset. The control by external power meter in the Wahoo Fitness app does not appear to work for me.
My theory is that the new Kickr (and old Kickr using model based power calculation) have a fundamental problem. I think the model cannot accurately predict power across the usable temperature range among different units, and the spindown (and advanced spindown) is not enough to adjust the parameters of the model. Every unit probably needs to be calibrated across temperature to be accurate. I would not train with it without using another power meter as a reference since the offset is not stable. Perhaps other people have Kickrs that behave differently, but that is how mine works, and I complained about it since the first week I had it with the response always being that firmware will fix the problem.
Just to add a little more to my previous comment, I still think that a Kickr is a good training tool. For someone training with power an external power meter needs to be used (e.g. the same one you use outside, Stages, 4iii, SRM, etc.) since no two power meters give the same results, and the Kickr power offset does not appear to be stable during a workout.
With the beta firmware I have been using, my main issue is that it takes about 30 minutes for the Kickr to settle on an offset that seems to be fairly stable for the rest of the ride (I tried up to three hour rides, and I always see the first ~30 minutes with a different offset). Without looking at the external power meter data, I would be training in the wrong zone without knowing it. Since I use a power meter on the bicycle outside, I need to see the same data reference indoors too and not rely on the Kickr (or whatever other smart trainer I would use).
I just bought the New Kickr and it is reading watts much lower than I think it should. I did an easy TR program and compared heart rate and PE to prior workouts on this TR session. HR was 20 bpm average higher and PE was much higher. If I base a new FTP off this resistance I will be in the “basement” for the new FTP. Apparently this isn’t uncommon. See this thread link to forum.slowtwitch.com
I will contact Wahoo tomorrow and see what can be done to get to a reasonable level of resistance. I don’t care about precise power accuracy but somewhere in a reasonable ballpark and consistency.
The best way to deal with this is to use an on the bicycle power meter as the power reference and adjust the Kickr offset as needed to meet your training targets. So, for your FTP test, the Kickr can be in Level mode and you will get the power information from your power meter which will be good for both inside and outside rides.
I’m still struggling with different offsets from different spindowns, and even from different days without redoing a spindown. Since I use an on the bicycle power meter, it doesn’t matter so much, other than adjusting the offset. Also, I usually need to adjust the offset within a ride.
I’m assuming that this will get better with each firmware release, but as you probably know from the V1 Kickr, it was never resolved.
I stumbled across this from another website where people were complaining of the same problem. I have a brand new Kickr Snap with the same problems. As per advice from Wahoo I deleted and reinstalled the apps, turned everything off and started again. After Spindown I sat on the bike and span for ten minutes watching the power reading. At a steady 27kph the power reading bounced all over the place between 105 and 140w.
Then I switched to ERG mode and set it to 140w. this felt more like 250w. I ramped up the resistance 10watts at a time, by the time I got to 180watts, it was unrideable. I couldn’t even stand on the cranks and get them to turn.
There is clearly a problem with the sensor in the unit. The guy in this Youtube video explains how he worked out the issue and how he fixed it.
Hi Ray – am expecting to have my new Kickr delivered tonight, but am a little confused as to whether it will work with Trainer road without an Ant+ dongle (which I forgot to order). I have a pretty new Windows laptop with Bluetooth 4.2, but the TR and Wahoo support sites seem to suggest I’ll need the dongle as well. Any ideas? Thanks!
I use an ANT+ stick, so I don’t know. TrainerRoad support is one of the best. E-mail their support team, support@trainerroad.com, and they will probably respond quickly.
We don’t support native BT on the PC (yet), so you’ll need an ANT stick.
But…if you have an iPhone or Android phone with BT 4.0 (if you’ve bought them in the last few years it will have it) you can control it without a dongle!
Just search for “TrainerRoad” in the App Store or Google Play Store :).
I’ve downloaded the beta and did 30sec intervals to test it. There is no smoothing and i did not do a calibration. I offset the Srm but I did not calibrate trainer its been just the way it is for 3 weeks now. Well with the exception of the new beta firmware. Purple is trainer. You can see its very reactive to fast jumps in power.
I should also not the first few I was 53t/16t. Then I went to 39/19 to see if a lower inertia would change things. The last 3 I went back to 53t. I also sprinted harder in the middle. I didn’t use smoothing because they were really short. Also to note the trainer reacts better than the SRM. If I put a little extra power down,just a quick jolt. The trainer reads it instantly while the srm barely notices. It makes for jumpy numbers and on longer intervals I’d definitely use at least 10sec smoothing
Oh, I might as well give you the original Kickr with 5sec smoothing. Same SRM but I had smoothing on. You can see the original is still quite good. I did do a spindown before this ride but rarely do on this trainer either.
Just a follow up, I have updated from the kickr 1 to the kickr 2, everything is working fine except my garmin 810 now wont pick up the new kickr as a speed sensor to record some kind of distance whilst recording on my garmin. Has anyone else had this issue or know a fix?
Just upgraded myself. The Kickr2 appears to transmits speed within the power stream, so if you’ve got the Garmin paired to the ANT+ power it should give you speed/distance. Works fine on my old Garmin 800 when selecting no Speed/Cadence in the Kickr2 bike profile I have set up.
Apparently the speed use the same ANT+ channel as power. I believe a firmware update for the original Kickr allowed a separate broadcast signal for speed?
I’m a bit disappointed by this, as I cannot broadcast speed (and thus distance) to my Vivoactive HR, as it won’t connect to power meters. It’s a bit frustrating to see an older video of Ray’s where he connects speed from the Tacx Vortex Smart to the original Vivoactive — a mid-range smart trainer which is less than half the price of what I paid for the Kickr2 here in Australia.
Anyway, I contacted Wahoo about this — and this was their response:
“Unfortunately at this time we are only broadcasting the Speed and Power data through one channel as they are calculated together with the our power model. I can certain pass this along to our developers and project managers to evaluate. Please let us know if you have any additional questions.”
I know speed isn’t a great metric, but it is a bit frustrating not having a complete activity recorded in Garmin (and on my watch) without having to push the FIT files from Zwift to Garmin Connect..
I just got my new Kickr and I’m a bit disappointed. Using power match with my Quarq in TrainerRoad It takes around 30 seconds to “ramp up” to target power when I start an interval- What gives? I updated the firmware and everything.
Try using the power offset instead of power match. By using the power match you’re adding a control loop. The kickr16 is very fast at erg mode if you let it do the work. Also from what I’ve seen, it’s more reactive to changes in power than my power meters. Offset just works better, faster, smoother.
You could record a workout on two separate devices, and see what the offset is across different power meter levels.
Generally speaking power match was aimed at trying to close a larger gap between a power meter and a trainer. If you don’t see an offset of any significance (more than a couple of percent), I wouldn’t really worry about power match – as all it’s really going to do is make a worse experiance.
Hi Ray, just want to say a massive thanks for your review. Just bought my new Wahoo today and it’s working pretty well except the belt (or the belt plate) makes some weird clicking noise – some guys on youtube also have the same problem and I am just keen to find out if this is normal? Thanks!
I just tried out my kickr2 for the first time this morning. It’s a lot louder than it seems on Ray’s video, so I packed it up for return. Tacx Neo on the way!
I am on my second kick2. I had an original kickr since new and these units seem to generate a squeal that sounds like metal rubbing. It seems to be coming from where the sensor lives. Its odd that two have the same issue so it may be something else. I have logged a support ticket.
Both trainers have slow down a lot quicker than the old kicker. I would say 15 sec. can you suggest pointers to where you adjust the belt and if this is something that can be done without voiding the warrenty. Thx
David – 15 seconds is too brief a spindown, confirming a tight belt. Adjusting the belt does not void any warranty and instructions can be found easily on Youtube. Aim for 23-24 seconds.
The Wahoo Fitness App has a spindown function that will tell you the spindown time. From your posting “I would say 15 sec.”, it appears that you didn’t use the app to spindown function in the app.
Hi – as follow up the squeal on the kick2, I had this back from Wahoo support. Looks like a manufacturing fault:
Ian Evans (Wahoo Fitness Support)
Oct 26, 2:29 PM EDT
Hi David,
I am terribly sorry about that. We have been getting several reports of this and we believe they are all from the same production run. With that being said, we are going to personally swap out your KICKR. We will need to get a courier scheduled to pick it up. What address will they be picking it up from? Additionally, what is a good phone number we can list on the order? Lastly, can you please send me your serial number?
Thanks,
Ian
Ray I noticed in your zwift setup that you select the kickr as your power source instead of your stages power meter and you connected via Bluetooth instead of ant+. Is there any reason you wouldn’t want to use your power meter as the power source instead of the kickr in zwift? Also my new kickr seems to transmit two signals for ant+ one that says “wahoo….” and the other that says “wahoo…FEC”. What are your thoughts on optimal configuration with the new kickr and separate power meter on zwift?
If on the iPad app, you have to connect via BT. If on desktop, I virtually always connect via ANT+.
For me, I always use the FE-C signal (on desktop), because it’s directly controlling the trainer. Versus if I set it to the power meter, then it’s not going to control the trainer (read-only).
So let me recap (I’m not tech savvy). I’ll be using the ZWIFT desktop app and will configure the new kickr this way:
Controllable trainer – Wahoo Kickr FEC
Cadence – Power meter (stages/quarq)
Power source – This is where I’m confused. Do I use the Wahoo Kickr FEC OR can I use my power meter (stages/quarq)? Both come up as options. Would it be more “accurate” to have the external power meter as the source and let the Kickr control the resistance?
I appreciate any help you can provide on the optimal configuration. Thanks again Ray!
Does anyone know the beginning serial number which doesn’t have the production flaw, or the serial numbers to avoid, as commented on by Ian from Wahoo?
Don’t own a Kickr, but was taking part in a study recently using Kickrs…not the new ones, I believe.
Question is this: has anyone run into a problem of belts snapping under use? I was not the most powerful of guys in this study, but I had *two* kickr belts break under me during the study. One in the middle of the workout, an increasing wattage ‘go till failure’ workout, and the second one after the workout was done when I was trying to get it spinning again. Still some tension on the belt, but I was not stomping all-out to try to get it moving. Just applying steady pressure.
Interesting. I don’t know how they were setting up the machines mechanically. The study started you off at 1 watt/kg, and then increased the wattage linearly based on your weight. You just cycled till failure, which was defined as not meeting the goal wattage by a certain amount (so if you were still spinning but well below the target wattage, you were done).
The first belt snapped when I was in the mid 300 watts. There were Cat1 and 2 guys in this study, pushing a lot more wattage than me. That one snapped in the middle of the study, while I was around 90 rpm or so–started hearing a ticking sound at first, got louder and I could feel it through the bike, and as one of the guys went to see what it was (thought maybe it was an indexing problem with the derailler), snap.
Second time, I had finished the study, gone till failure, and then wanted to get spinning again for recovery. The trainer was still up in the 300s, and I was applying steady pressure trying to get it moving from a stop. That one just snapped all at once.
As far as I knew, they weren’t tweaking the Kickrs themselves at all, just running a specific program. But I don’t know. Yeah, I was the only one who had the belt break–they had other problems with bluetooth HR interference between the two units they had, but the belt breaking was all for me :/ I took away a pretty poor opinion of the Kickr from that study (only time I’ve used one, they’re too rich for my blood :)) but maybe that’s an unfair opinion to have if my experience is a non-standard deviant.
Yeah, all those problems just don’t really sound normal to me. Like BT HR interference, virtually never hear of that (sometimes ANT+ interference, but I can’t remember ever seeing BT interference on the HR side).
I just set up my Kickr2 today with the Wahoo Utility app, which did a firmware update before I did a spin-down. I also had disconnects with the Sufferfest app – running fine for 10min then no connection. I switched to Trainer Road which ran fine for 60min. I’ll try Sufferfest again but needed a workout, not an IT problem solving session.
Is there an app-controlled, variable speed fan to provide ‘simulated wind’ matching road speed? A key component to developing power is dissipation of heat (as we know skelentail muscle is extremely inefficient = heat production). I’m new to the bicycle trainer arena and haven’t noticed any mention body heat dissipation by convection. Thanks!
I thought of using a Raspberri pi with the dongle and some fans to try and build the same thing. Ended up being more complicated that I had intended and gave up. Family, work, bike, doesn’t leave time enough to tinker.
I just ordered a Kickr 2 from clever training and the VIP membership. Strangely, I had compatibility issues with my frame. I have a Cannondale Supersix, 2012 edition, and it has 130mm dropout spacing and works with the original Kickr. I find it hard to believe that it doesn’t work, as this is a fairly normal bike, but they have told me to ship it back.
Frankly, after looking at the proximity of the arm to the “130/135” adapter, I find it hard to believe this works with any bikes at all.
I am hoping Santa delivers a kickr for christmas. I noticed the latest one was on sale, but they are out of stock and offereing alternatives…..which kickr do i want? I am going nuts trying to compare. Help me please.
Hi Ray,
Din´t you have issues with gears skipping/shifting with KICKR cassette?
Have an 11sp ultegra groupset on my bike, bought a brand new KICKR (3 uses only), and couldn´t find a way for gears to shift smooth on KICKR, even though in my bike are perfect. The issue is that the gears needs some barrel indexing on the KICKR, but afterwards, need to re-adjust when mounting on bike, and indexing on the KICKR it´s not easy stuff, it´s annoying.
Read in some forums people replacing kickr cassette with the ones as they have on their bikes for better shifting, but I´m not sure about that. I´m thinking to take my Bike/Kickr to LBS so they adjust both properly, even though didn´t wanted to get to that point.
Any experiences or thoughts on issue are welcomed,
Cheers!
After reading another very insightful product review here, I am a little bit thorn since I can get a Kickr1 2015-2016 on sale at $400 (CAN Dollar) off the retail price of a Kickr2 2016-2017 at a local bike shop.
I already have an independant power meter but I am really looking forward to the ERG mode.
I could live with the high level of noise since I wear headphones, although the high frequency sound maybe annoying in the long term for the family while I am in the basement pedaling. Based on Ray’s test, it may be less annoying with Kickr2.
Otherwise, the power accuracy and possible reliability issues in this regard mentioned here and on other forums for Kickr1 maybe another yellow flag compare to the new one. Again, Ray’s assessement seems to answer these claims and some friends who own one told me they have not experienced any of these problems yet.
Given this good deal and the aforementioned feedback I got, I am really leaning toward the Kickr1. Am I forgetting something about other things/issues that would make the Kickr2 a better option for the long terme (couple of years)? I may be also able to get this one with an online $170 rebate (CAN).
It sounded like it might be on the show-floor, but the show floor is incredibly tough to judge. Until I have a final unit in my hands, I can’t really say either way.
Bit late to party. Could you sometime dig into what exactly ‘incline mode’ means? Exactly what are the limitations to it? 15% and 2000w sounds terrific but watts (joules/second) sounds like the wrong sort of measurement to generally characterize climbing forces.
An example: I have a mtb ride I do (in the summer!) that starts with 2700 foot gravel road climb. The first 3 miles average 15 degrees but spots are 20. I ride it on my singlespeed. Because I’m old and fat my cadence is sometimes down to 10 rpm. I’m 200lb and averaging 270 watts but peak will be much higher. Can this thing simulate that load? This seems like a simple question but don’t see specs anywhere that hint at an answer.
I just purchased a kickr 2. Something is not right. I had originally paired it with my Elemnt however it seems to lose connection with the elemnt constantly so I paired it to my phone (turning the elemnt off, note phone BT was off when using the elemnt to eliminate BT issues). The phone app seems to keep connection better but am unable to control the resistance of the Kickr. No matter what mode I am in the resistance is not changing. I even set it in Resistance mode to 100% and could still easily pedal in my highest gear.
Been in contact with Kickr support but I only get one email a day with them.
Okay so after a little more debugging I noticed that anytime I sent a control command to the kickr like changing resistance level it would lose connection. Watching this happen it almost looked like it was resetting. So I looked at the power brick and noticed the green led on it was barely lit. I measured the output voltage on the power brick and it is only putting out 4.9v and it should put out 12v. So appears my issue is a bad power supply. Emailed wahoo about the findings.
Thinking of buying this, to combine with Zwift. Have a question you maybe could answear.
If you have a power meter on your bike, like Quarq, that measure cadence and power to a paired unit like Garmin 520/1000. Do i really need a VR/Smart trainer like KICKR that measure power and cadence, to get all the benefits with Zwift controlling the resistance from what ever you are “training” on zwift? Is it possible to make Zwift read power from the Quarq and still having it to controll the KICKR. Or is it best or easiest to skip the Quarq and make KICKR do all the work.
Yes, zwift, traineroad, perfpro, etc. All allow you to use the bikes power meter to show and record data over the trainers power while the trainer is adjusting the power(erg)or slope. So your TSS scores & other metrics will be coming off your regular PM if you choose.
I’ve spent a few weeks with the Kurt Kinetic Smart Control. Bug ridden app and still does not integrate with Zwift. I want my money back. So disappointed in Kurt Kinetic. I should have gotten the unit you are reviewing. My “Smart Control” is useless for what I needed.
I have never been able to get my Kickr to work properly in ERG mode or to be accurate with power. Wahoo says that the units use an optical reader to measure power – literally an optical sensor that reads the pattern on the flywheel (not the brake as the article states). Hard to see how this is accurate. Keep your flywheel and sensor clean!
You are scaring me about Kickr. Ugh. Maybe nothing works as advertised with Zwift and I just stick with my old KK fluid trainer.
I think the power calculation is easier than you might think….they know the mass and they know the velocity. Knowing that I the resistance I bet it is just a simple physics calculation. Probably a few percent off, but okay for what I’m doing.
I just am looking for some fun in Zwift, something that will get me on the bike in the winter. I can’t believe how hard the search is.
If you already have a kk trainer you might go ahead and buy the inride pod. $50 on amazon. I found intervals using their free iPhone app to be way fun and very sustainable for winter training. The sufferfest workouts are scary!
I’ve tried zwift with my kk, also on a friends wahoo kikr and power was all over, ugly and frustrating. I gave up because it also wasn’t fun.
I updated my Kickr with new firmware this weekend and it does seem to be working reasonably well. In sim mode it works well with Zwift. The ERG mode is still a challenge.
The one issues I do have now is that the new firmware disconnects the strain gauge. I don’t know if its related, but the unit now shows power when I am coasting.
Just wanted to give people a heads up. I ordered my KICKR2 a week ago and was excited to try it out. Turns out my 2014 Specialized Crux Carbon Disc frame has clearance issues with the trainer. My disc caliper mount was having issues hitting the handle of the KICKR and interfering with the dropout mounting exactly in line one the trainer. I took my frame off the trainer and there was definitely a small pressure mark on the KICKR2 handle and on my rear disc caliper mount area of my frameset.
The Specialized has a 120mm rear disc caliper mount and Wahoo does say in their support documentation that rotor sizes smaller than 160mm the caliper may interfere with the trainer (they recommend taking the caliper off). However my frame’s issue was the caliper mount and not the disc caliper itself.
Thankfully the handle of the KICKR2 can be easily removed with three allen bolts and now that the handle is off, the bike mounts up just fine. This is the short term fix, but long run unless I file a small notch into the thermoplastic handle, I will have to live without the KICKR handle…
I haven’t found anybody else talking about frame fitting issues with the KICKR2, but word to the wise checkout any clearance issues before committing to the product!
Ok here goes. After buying and returning 2 Kickr Snaps and trying a 3rd at my local bike shop… I am now the proud owner the new wheel off Kickr. The first snap shook so badly my whole house vibrated. The other 2 were completely unable to calculate wattage. Using my Powertap C1 the discrepancy at 310 watts was 90 watts!!! It was an exponential problem. the harder you went to larger the discrepancy. When the unit at the LBS did the exact same thing as mine in regards to wattage we decided it was more than just a single issue. We put my bike on the wheel off Kickr and the power numbers matched up completely with my power meter.
Long story short. I am very happy with my wheel off Kickr (new version) … 2 hour rides on Zwift result in only 4-5 watt average differences with my power meter. Even at a 1,000 watt sprint it was within 4 watts! It isn’ t as quiet as they describe IMO … they claim “It’s as quiet as your favorite fluid trainer” and it is most definitely not as quiet as my Kurt Kinetic. But the noise is something I can live with. The road feel is the best of any smart trainer I have had (Kickr Snap and Tacx Bushido Smart). I can’t wait to log many many hours on this trainer!
Hi Jeff, how is the road feel of your new Kickr compared to your old Kurt Kinetic? I have a KK Rock and Roll and I’m trying to decide whether to make the move to a smart trainer.
We got another Kickr 2016 yesterday so I tested it against SRM. Just a simple ramp test. Kickr recorded with Perfpro and SRM recorded with Garmin. The gap in the Garmin file is just during the calibration of the Kickr.
It was in erg mode. Srm was being monitored by the garmin while the Kickr 16 was Perfpro. On the last pic you can see the load and trainer wattage from the kickr but not Srm.
The machines are the same, but the spinning wheel with all those spokes(basically a fan) and tire friction adds another layer of sound in the room. So although not necessarily louder, the cumulative noise could overwhelm. In my cave, when i run 2 kickrs i can keep volume the same but with kickr&snap i raise the volume but i don’t think the decibels are higher just more cumulative noise
I bought mine from CT. I am having trouble because when I have my Fenix 3 on sometimes the watts come down to 0 as if it loses connection with the iPhone and connects to the Fenix (which is not the device I am using for the workout). I noticed that when I turned the Fenix off, it does not happen again. This did not happen with the kickr 1. Any comments??
Curious if the electronics like Bluetooth and chipset are upgraded from the 2013 to the 2016? Similar to a newer generation smart phone–I assume that there is tech inside the brain of the machine. Thanks.
I’m not aware of any changes there. Though to be honest, there’s little reason for that specific component to upgrade the BT chipset, since nothing has really changed there.
Going forward into mid-2017, then a BT5 chipset would make sense, but even that doesn’t really buy the KICKR much in this scenario (if anything).
The watts produced feel 30 to 50 watts low for the effort and resistance felt. On Trainerroad my FTP is only 145. It is consistent/repeatable and heart rate appropriate for the zones if not too short. I don’t have a power meter. I have done an Advanced Spindown and Wahoo said the brake resistance was within specs. Anyone else experience watts reported being much lower than it should be and if so thoughts as to a fix. This is my second K2. The first one had so much resistance in ERG I could not get it to 150 watts to do a test Wahoo wanted me to do. This one works fine with TR-just beats up my ego. At 145 FTP Zwift would be useless unless it reported a much higher FTP.
Correct Ray. Kinetic Road Machine with VP of 185 FTP. I realize VP can be very inaccurate but repeatable. However I’ve ridden 30 years most of the time using HR as a measure of effort. Long ago when the earth was flat I raced cat 3. Based upon who I can or can’t ride with a 185-190 FTP “feels” about right. I’ve ridden next to a friend 10 lbs heavier than me at 200 watts on his power meter. Not easy but not near death.
1) minor question but what size 11 speed cassette comes with the kickr? Can’t find that info anywhere or how they know to send you a 10 vs. 11 speed cassette? Even when I put one in my “shopping cart” they didn’t give that info or ask.
2) Am probably going to buy the kickr vs. the others. Feel like I got burned going joule gps instead of garmin a few years ago and it was like I bought betamax instead of vhs in terms of support and interacting with others. All other things being equal-ish b/n this and the Hammer will go with the one that seems to have won the race to be the most used/supported.
Mike- i know this sounds weird but are you testing ftp in erg mode? erg mode takes a little adaptation from progressive trainers or slope/simulation mode. Alot of people struggle in erg mode at first. Try testing with a 1.5% slope in a big gear so you don’t have to deal with the micro bursts erg mode causes and a big gear to increase road feel. I bet your numbers improve.
Darren-11/26T sram 1130 cassette.
Thanks Keith. Trainer Road automatically changes from ERG to resistance during the ftp test. So I will have to blame wimpyness and old age 🙂 but there is a thread on this issue on slowtwitch.com under Accuracy of New Flickr.
Thanks! Just wondering what size 11 speed cassette too. Would be nice to be able to choose (e.g., instead of standard 11-25, would run 11-28 like on my current outdoors bike, especially given steep (!) slopes on Watopia).
I have the “old” Kickr, purchased it in November 2015. Is the “more accurate power readings” in the new Kickr, along with more smooth transitions between rapid low and high power efforts (I’m assuming when using Erg mode) worth an upgrade to the new Kickr? The noise level in the older model doesn’t bother me or others in our household, so I’m good there. I’m just curious whether the more accurate power and the smooth wattage transitions are worth the investment in a new Kicr. ?
Apparently the max resistance of the KICKR is 999w not 2000w. It can read that amount from the built in power meter but can only apply 999w to the brake. I just checked this with wahoo support. Sucks that I had to spend $1200 only to find out I can’t do short intervals above 999watts.
I’m not sure who you spoke with at Wahoo but that is incorrect. The KICKR brake can generate a constant torque regardless of speed. The actual power it generates is limited only by how fast it can be driven at max brake and in reality is well above our marketing claims and what any human can do.
Caught up with Kyle in our office that you talked to. To clarify, our App only allows you to set ERG mode up to 999 Watts. That was a conscious choice just because we didn’t think anybody would ever want to set ERG mode that high and space in that screen was at a premium. It can be set higher, but not currently by our app. If you want to do intervals above 999 Watts I suggest level mode pretty high like 6 then just give it everything you’ve got.
Hi Chip, any chance you can respond to my comment regarding improved responsiveness and accuracy of power–new Kickr versus old Kickr, and whether the improvements are significant enough to entail purchasing the latest model? I’ve had my Kickr just a little over a year and am a bit bummed that the power accuracy in the model I have supposedly has flaws. Also, I’m curious about the responsiveness in big wattage jumps and the comparison between the two models. thanks.
Reply # 182(first new Kickr) & 184(old Kickr) should help.. #237 is our second new Kickr. Still have the original and on carpet or rug, its really quiet.
Honestly if you have a good old Kickr and your bikes derailleur doesn’t hit the belt guard you shouldn’t need to upgrade. I don’t think it’s anymore or less accurate than the new one and once you are up and riding, you can’t tell which one your on..
I purchased a Kickr2 from a good shop in London (UK), brought it back as it makde a very loud high pitch sound, which changes depending on frequency – kind of rattling/grinding, hard to describe. It’s like the Kickr1 but way louder. Checked with the shop 3 other units and they all had the same issue. The demo unit (in the shop) didn’t have this problem. Now waiting for the UK distributor to take a look.
I’m having huge issues with a brand new wahoo kickr 2. Constant signal drops in both ant+ and Bluetooth when using bkool, zwift, trainrroad and even the wahoo app.
Have tried wahoo support, followed all their advice including using only Bluetooth, only ant+, trying different devices (ipad, Pc, Android) but it none made a difference. Even tried using the kickr in the garage away from any wireless signal. Fed all this back to wahoo and today instead of offering more support they closed my ticket!
That doesn’t sound good. I’ve had a Kickr 2 since September and the only issue I had was when trying to use it via Bluetooth with the Zwift Mobile link because my 2011 MacBook Pro didn’t have BT4. It would have trouble connecting in the first place and I’d have to restart the iPhone to get it to connect. Also at that time there were some issues with the resistance dropping down to nothing. Zwift support were fairly useless. Wahoo support suggested switching to Ant+ because they had seen lots of customers having issues with Bluetooth and Zwift. Zwift finally acknowledged that the MacOS Sierra upgrade has caused them to experience Bluetooth issues – but it took several support requests for them to acknowledge it. In contrast, wahoos suggestion to use ant+ with Zwift worked perfectly and I didn’t look back. I’m now using Zwift with my iPad using Bluetooth and having no problems at all.
If you have tried multiple devices, different software, Bluetooth and ant+ then surely your Kickr2 must be faulty and wahoo should replace it.
I’ve used wahoo for over 4 years and their support has always been excellent. In fact I got a kickr rather than a neo because I heart bad things about tacx support.
I would give wahoo another try – explain everything you had tried and ask for a replacement under warranty.
Any news on this supposed firmware update for the new kickr? I have the new one which i really like but was expecting there to be an update to show actual power rather than the brake power. Its far to clean power graph to be actual power.
After DCR discussed this with wahoo i thought it was going to be sorted?
This update went public the other day (Jan 24th 2017 iirc) allows switching off power smoothing in ERG mode. Tested on a Kickr2, and it’s a beautiful thing. 🙂
Hi there, Loving the news about this… I would like to think im that smooth but i know im not… quick question.. can this only be turned on using the wahoo app?
Just wondering whether i could put this into use on trainer road
The power smoothing is turned on and off in the wahoo app and the setting “may” be stored in the Kickr itself. At least that was my experience using the Sufferfest app.
I used the Sufferfest iOS app this morning for the first time after updating the Kickr firmware and had turned off power smoothing using the wahoo app after I updated the Kickr. The Sufferfest app showed actual power so the setting may be stored in the Kickr itself and when using other apps like Trainerroad, will also show actual power.
First, your website is truly great. A lot of useful information presented in a organized way. Thank you very much.
Second, I have been trying to buy the new kickr on CleverTraining using your coupon code but it doesn’t work. It says that the item is not valid with coupon codes. Oddly enough, the coupon code would be working if I were to buy the elite or the tacx neo.
Some manufacturers don’t allow the discount which includes Wahoo–so to get Ray’s discount–you join the Clever Training VIP programs ($5 I think) and then you will get the coupon discount in the form of points that can be used/applied on anything else at Clever Training.
I am very interested in the Kickr2 and it’s a plus that it comes with a cassette, but I’m confused with the cassette size as indicated at Clever Training: “Drivetrain: 11 Speed Shimano/SRAM (compatible with 8, 9 and 10)”
My bicycle uses SRAM 10-speed setup, and I’m hoping to have the shifting just as smooth on the trainer as with my wheel, so I’m trying to figure out if the compatibility noted above with the included cassette does match this, or if seeking out a separate SRAM 10-speed cassette would make more sense? In doing some quick searches, it’s difficulty to discern the compatibility or necessary adjustments to mix this 10-speed and 11-speed setup.
I need to look up more the differences/similarities between Shimano and SRAM; for example, I’m curious if I purchase a SRAM 10-speed cassette if it would then be as simple as swapping out the existing 11-speed one that comes with the trainer.
Either brand of cassette should work. However, when switching from an 11 speed to a 10 speed, you will need a spacer to make up for the missing space. I went to my local bike show and they did everything to make it work. Enjoy!
Thanks for the comments, West. Do you know what kind of spacer (what size?)? Curious if I can purchase one ahead of time. Was the spacer put on inside the largest or outside the smallest cog?
My LBS doesn’t sell Wahoo’s line of product, so I’m hesitant to request their assistance when not shopping with them.
The spacer is 1.85mm wide. The 11 speed Kickr should include it in a bag. Otherwise, most shops should have extra spacers since they are generic to fit cassettes on 11 speed freehub bodies. You need it for both Shimano and SRAM. For Shimano, unless it is Tiagra 10 speed, you also need to install the 1mm spacer that is included with the cassette.
Hi Ray, love your site… my go to for information . A quick question i was hoping you could help me out with
Whats your opinion on training using erg mode (currently use trainer road) In big ring or small ring?
i use a new kickr
The high inertia Low inertia option
Big ring = High inertia
Low ring = Low inertia.
I must say in the small ring it feels a lot more difficult (shown by the increased heart rate) and simulates more of a hill climb compared to the more inertia assisted big ring ( bit more like a flat road)
At same wattage its very different feel, and harder in the small ring,, was wondering if you have any opinions on this?
Also! 15 minutes in… worth a spindown on the new kickr before the warm up ends?
I ended up buying the new Kickr after reading this review, specifically the power accuracy details. The unit I received isn’t anywhere NEAR yours. At 200 watts in ERG mode my Stages power meter reads 25 watts higher, well outside of Wahoo’s 2% claim even if you assume the Stages is off as well. I contacted Wahoo support and they gave me a line about how every power meter is different. “There will be some discrepancy in power readings between the KICKR and third-party power meters. There are a lot of factors that go into that, such as where the power reading comes from, but it is completely normal.” Completely normal? Pretty unacceptable a the price point.
I answered all of their initial questions and they havent gotten back to me. I tried calling for help today and their support line rings to voicemail.
25W at 200W is 12.5% which is a big difference. I use a Stages and do not have such a big difference, although it also depends on my power output. At lower power levels such as 150W my power meter usually reads higher, and at higher power levels (like 330W), the Kickr usually reads higher. I’m not sure if that is due to my left leg doing more or less compared to my right leg at different power levels, but at those ends it can vary from 5-20W average difference for an interval. The average power difference for the entire ride is usually fairly close, like 3W unless I need to redo a spindown.
Make sure you do an advanced spindown in the Wahoo App since that can make a big difference in the power accuracy. For me, it seems that I get the best results when doing an advanced spindown starting when the trainer is cold, and a standard spindown when the trainer is completely warmed up (I usually do it after a 1.5 hour ERG session at 170W). I rarely redo the advanced spindown, and I occasionally redo a regular spindown.
Either way, the trainer will never perfectly match the power meter. The best thing to do is use software that does power matching such as PerfPro Studio or TrainerRoad. It is good that you have a Stages power meter, so just use that as the reference instead of the Kickr, especially if that is the same bicycle you use outdoors.
I had a previous generation Kickr that I exchanged for the current generation one. Still having same issues with power accuracy. At lower wattages my P2M and Kickr are within a few watts. But as the watts increase the difference increases. As a result I have to use powermatch with TrainerRoad which works fairly well for long intervals but for shorter stuff I am almost always over the target initially and then under for the rest of the interval which is annoying.
I calibrate the stages before each ride either on my Garmin (in the case of the data shown above) or the stages app on my iphone. For the Kickr I do a spin down after a 10 min warm up.
I have heard some mention an advanced spin down but I don’t see the option.
Very disappointed thus far with Wahoo support. Going on 48 hours without a response and when I called yesterday it went to voicemail.
Brian,
Your issue most likely is that you need to do an advanced spindown. I think you need to do it with the Apple version of the Wahoo Fitness App since Android may not have that option. Don’t expect an exact match with your power meter afterwards, but it should be much closer than it currently is.
For the Apple version of the app, if you do not see advanced spindown after selecting spindown, tap the comment text five times and you will see the advanced spindown option.
The Stages at the crank arm and the KICKR at the rear axle -so the Stages will report higher power numbers because it’s reporting at the crank set at your foot and the KICKR takes it at the rear axle which will be lower due to heat loss in the drive train.
If this was the case everyone would be reporting issues.
Very disappointed with my support experience with Wahoo.
I’ve never been able to work out the Wahoo software and spindowns..
On one hand, the Wahoo Fitness app (android) never seems to complete a spindown.. It just gets stuck on ‘coasting down’. The spindown in the Wahoo Utility actually does complete, though.. (i’m assuming one of these applications is old/deprecated)
In Wahoo Fitness, I’m unable to get any advanced spindown option to show. It shows in Wahoo Utility, but only references the Kickr Snap..
Can I just say in theory, yes, but the wrong theory.
The measure of power and down-stream accuracy theory came from the thought of measuring horsepower with car motors. They measure HP from one of 2 spots. 1.@ the crank(always higher) and 2. @ tires (always lower). With a car this is true for the reasons stated above. But with a bicycle, it’s not, for this reason. You can only apply as much force as the force pushing back(resistance). In other words you can only apply force to resistance. So if you put down a huge amount of force with zero resistance, you really didn’t apply any force and the strain gauges will let you know.
With a bicycle, if the force is measured upstream or down stream the losses will be equalized with resistance(upstream) or the force(down stream). If you remove all the drive train(like measuring a engine from the crank), then yes the statement above is correct. But the drive train is not removed therefor any losses would be accounted for on the resistance side and vice versa.
Newton’s 3rd law: for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction.
Science would disagree with you. It’s well tested, proven, and demonstrated over and over again that a drivetrain loses efficiency between the foot and the road. It’s not just some theory, it’s reality. That reality is enumerated as lower power values the further you get from the foot.
Yes I agree. 100% that the force at the foot would be higher than the force to the ground after all the losses from the drive train and tire and wheel flex. But the strain gauges are between all that loss and all that force.
I really do agree with all the losses in drive train and power at the ground versus power at the foot. All I’m stating is the fact that all those losses are being measured with strain gauges. And on one side, you have resistance, and on the other, you have force. You simply cannot apply more force than resistance. In other words, once you add all that heat and drive-train loss, total power is reduce at both ends. Even if you think Force from the foot isn’t reduced the resistance is. I’m not saying you aren’t going to use more energy or your body isn’t working harder. I’m just saying by using strain gauges the power should be equalized force/resistance.
I swear I’m not trolling on purpose. I’ll look deeper into this and figure out why Newton’s 3rd law does not apply. Maybe it’s his first law and the minor accelerations of the human body not being efficient. But on a machine at a steady state the 3rd Law should apply.
I have done advanced spindown but the brake factor never changed.
When i got the Kickr out of the box the belt was tightened to 33 seconds brake factor was 0.94, power was off by 20 watts or so
Wahoo asked me to tighten the belt to 15-22 seconds. I tightened to 22. Did an advanced spindown and brake factor was still 0.94. Power discrepancy did not improve, Kickr got considerably louder
A week later and Support said they couldn’t “see” that i had done the advanced spindown on their end. By this time the belt had loosened to 25 seconds. I tightened to 19 seconds. Completed an advanced spindown and brake factor was 0.93. Again, power discrepancy did not improve, Kickr got considerably louder.
Wahoo has been very slow to answer. Usually 4 days after i respond. And their support phone number goes straight to voice mail. I asked for a replacement and they said i haven’t demonstrated that there is anything wrong with the unit I have.
Unless they can help me troubleshoot it will be going back before the 30 day return period. Great ride quality, horrible accuracy and customer service. I have gotten more help on this forum than from Wahoo.
So I had time to look at the link on power losses and yes we can all agree there are power losses. What the link doesn’t address is are those power losses measured at the SRM. I say they are. Because the SRM is between the losses and the Force.
Simple experiment: link to youtube.com
Think of it like this, if you have a 500w motor and 250 watts of resistance you only have 250 watts measurable. What we are talking about; are these losses being measured given the placement of the strain gauges? I’m saying the loss between the chainring(Bike) and the cassette(kickr) is in fact being measured. If the energy is lost between the force and the resistance then it is also lost between the resistance and the force.
I believe that the losses take place but given where the power meters are located I believe they should measure the loss.
Examples
1. Sprint on a MTB with wide open suspension vs. a road bike. You might hit 1,500 watts on the road bike and only 800 watts on the MTB, why? Did you sprint less hard? No, the losses showed up on the power meter.
2. Do the same experiment on the trainer. Bet you can’t hit 1,500 watts on the trainer and no it’s not because you aren’t getting full motion. That may be part of it, but it’s because those losses or lack of resistance is being measured.
3. When you get out of the saddle on your MTB and your rear tire slip, you still expend a large amount of energy as you foot slams forward but the power meter looks at it as if you did very little as the resistance has gone. The energy was used but because the resistance was not, the power meter could not measure.
So, I’d return the device not measuring accurately.
My point is, there is no reason you should have a 20-30 watt discrepancy between a chain-ring and cassette at a constant state and the power meter companies know this. They know that those power losses are calculated with there tools because they are between those losses. The customer service guys might not know this but the physics guys do.
I would like to apologize about the wrong statements I made below or above. I went through the entire drive-train and found differences with the stages vs. other power meters. It does matter where the PM is placed. I had a lot of help getting me through my stubborn thought process but in the end I can confirm that there is a difference, not much but a difference. Please take any comments I made previously and disregard them as they are not accurate. Again I apologize for the wrong statements and I hope it doesn’t or didn’t effect anyone’s customer service relationship. Sincerely sorry
Yes, a few people showed a tremendous amount of patience for the Internet. In the end I think it was a net plus. As I had to get off my butt to learn, they had to figure out a way to teach the unwilling. I also think it might have needed it a little. Not 5 pages, but, you know.
Just wondering if anyone has an idea of what values should we expect from performing a spindown calibration. My unit gave me 30 seconds at 30 degrees. Does that sound ok ?
Per my recent support discussion with Wahoo it should be 15-22 seconds. My came from the factory at 33-35 seconds and I have been having really large power accuracy issues versus by power meter. They instructed me to tightened the belt to 15-22 seconds but I haven’t had any increase in accuracy. Only a large increase in noise.
I hope you have better luck with Wahoo Support than I’ve had.
You likely won’t find much in the way of Wahoo flat-rate discounts, as the company doesn’t permit it these days.
However, you can use the DCR Clever Training VIP program and get back 10% in points that way (that you can spend immediately). Plus, it supports the site. 🙂 link to dcrainmaker.com
Hi Ray. I have a combo Kickr2, Garmin, DC Analyzer question. I have a new Kickr 2 and have been controlling it in ERG mode from the Wahoo app and recording the output on both the app and my Edge 520. The Edge is showing multiple power drop outs at irregular intervals, but always for three seconds each. The power doesn’t actually seem to drop, but the value is recorded as a zero. Any idea what may be causing this? I thought I saw a slowtwitch post by you that indicated this may be a long-standing issue.
I then used the DC Analyzer to confirm that the power in the Wahoo app remains steady, which it does, and to easily see the Edge drop-outs. I uploaded two sets of data, and in both cases the power comparison data showed a time offset, but the HR and Cadence data did not. Additionally, this offset started at about the five minute mark in one file and around 20 minutes in the other. I can correct it for the sections I was examining, but then all of the other data is offset. Any thoughts here?
This looks like classic interference, likely WiFi interference, but hard to tell. The other classic case is when a Garmin unit drops all sensors due to Bluetooth overloading, but that doesn’t appear to be the case here – since you didn’t drop on cadence or HR. Which leads me to believe simple interference on the Wahoo side only. There’s no rhythem or rhyme when it comes to one ANT device dropping vs another. I can have 6-10 ANT+ devices online at once on a trainer ride, and one will drop for a few seconds but none other will, and than 28 minutes later, a totally different one drops.
RE: Offsets
What’s actually interesting here is that it shows the offset splitting in the file for power, but not for cadence or HR data (which remains matched). Did you pause at all by chance?
Depending on the answer to that, I can follow-up and see if there’s some quirk we’re not accounting for. Typically for me I never hit pause in comparison sets to avoid issues like the above.
Oh – and finally – thanks for trying out the Analyzer and dropping a note!
This power shift is actually in the raw file – which is kinda crazy. We validated that’s truly that’s in there using other tools. Not terribly logical.
That one was exported from the Wahoo app, correct? If so – I can hit up Wahoo on their side to see if they can track down what appears to be a bug (either on the recording side or the exporter side).
Just a quick update.. I tightened the belt as advised by Wahoo support, and my spindown times are now reading 33 – 35 seconds (they were up around 42 seconds before) — but still way higher than the ideal range of 17 – 23 seconds that Wahoo Support told me.
I’ve gone back to Wahoo Support with this. The first response was they needed my serial number (I had registered the device against the same email address I logged a support case with — but whatever). I provided the serial number, heard no response for days. They have now come back to me claiming the spindown files are incorrect as they are for advanced spindowns. This is incorrect — I open the Wahoo Fitness app, go into the devices, select the Kickr, and select spindown. All spindowns have been completed this way.
I’m still waiting on them to provide feedback on my spindown files, and whether or not I should be tightening the belt further given how far off my spindown times are. Very disappointed with the customer service so far, and I’m thinking I’ll probably aim for a refund — the responses from Wahoo haven’t been terribly helpful so far, and my support case is taking too long to resolve.
Oh, and I notice a vibration through my bike when pedalling in smaller sprockets at times. The vibration seems to correlate with my pedal stroke. The Kickr is on a mat with floorboards underneath. I also notice almost a whirring sound (in addition to the normal Kickr sound) that comes and goes — this was not present before tightening the belt. I’ve advised Wahoo Support of this, who are requesting a video.
My suspicion is that the additional sound is due to the belt possibly needing to be tightened further into the sweet spot. I’m unsure about the cause of the vibration — but it’s very frustrating.
I agree on their customer service being a bit useless, it takes them 1 week plus to reply to every email I sent them. if you got it from a shop take it to them and get them to deal with wahoo. I bought mine from REI and had 2 months of emails with wahoo and no solution even after sending my serial number multiple times and videos and telling them what the problem was. I went over the 1 year warranty because of the slow response and could only exchange, I ended up getting this one but I would take back to the shop and exchange or fix, 2 months of wahoo emails and I def give up on them.
I’m located in the US of A. My first TICKR had a fatal problem with quick battery drain. This was two years ago and they were very quick to mail a replacement. Never took more than a day to respond. I felt like I was the holdup.
Fast forward to this week and my refurbished kickr arrived ($650!). I’ve been riding on it for a week, gosh I love it. I had a support question (2 power spikes during 3 hour session) and contacted them with data. Their precise and personal response arrived in less than 12 hours.
So… at least from where I stand their support has been as good as it can be, and seems to still be. I guess we’ll see how I feel in a year?
At least right now, 3/7/2017 I’ve found the folks at wahoo to be enthusiastic about their gear and eager to engage with me whenever I have a question.
thatmdee, If your belt is not slipping under high load, I don’t think you need to worry about the spindown times. My Kickr2 also has spindown times higher than 23 seconds, and it works fine. Power is also tracking similarly to my Stages after a spindown.
About the vibration in the small cog, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is just your cassette/chain interface. Try it on a different trainer, and I think you will have similar vibration in that gear combination.
Interesting.. thanks for the responses. Here is the latest reply from Wahoo:
“your spindown times look consistent so do not tighten your belt any more. However, you do need to do 2 normal spindowns and 1 advanced spindown so we can make sure that your brake strength is properly set and your device is properly calibrated. ”
This completely contradicts what they told me before, and I’ve read here — that spindown times should be 17 – 23 seconds. They now seem to be suggesting spindown times do not matter.
This is after having told me the spindown files they were looking at were all for advanced spin downs — which was blatantly wrong. I’m not sure how I’m supposed to trust support, when they don’t even appear to know their own product.
The lower the gear you choose the slower the flywheel turns and the quieter the unit is. I am training on an old compact 26″ mtb. With kickr I’m doing all my workouts using the quietest gear, which for me is 32×17, so nominally I’m doing all my rides at 7-9 mph. I then enable ‘virtual speed’ setting so erg watts are translated to a higher speed that pretty closely matches my old trainer’s wheel speed (14-17 mph). Setup this way the trainer is much quieter than my drivetrain, and much much quieter than the adjacent kurt road machine.
The noise does seem to correlate with the flywheel speed. However, the vibration through the bike frame seems to occur (from what I’ve observed) when attempting to maintain a cadence of 80 – 100 rpm once I’m up around 160w+ .. It happens in larger and smaller sprockets, and is very frustrating — as it ruins the immersion and reminds me I’m on a trainer that’s performing poorly. I’m not sure how I can provide Wahoo evidence of a vibration, given there is likely to be no audio (unless I use some kind of accelerometer app on my phone mounted to my handlebars).
The other part of Wahoo’s response I forgot to add in:
“What I need you to do is 2 normal spindowns followed by an advanced spindown and then do a 20 min workout in the Fitness app in ERG mode with watts set to over 120. You can change the watts or set it to what you are comfortable with, but it has to be over 120. Then save that workout and email the file to me by sharing it through email and selecting the fit file.”
Honestly, after being told the spindown time should be 17 – 23 seconds (echoing what others have said here and elsewhere), then told a spindown time of 33 seconds is okay — I’m not sure what to believe. The above also makes me feel like Wahoo Support is a typical (outsourced?) support center where the staff don’t know the product, just read off a script and expect you to jump through hoops with little rationale.
It shouldn’t be taking > 2 weeks to have them to troubleshoot a $1,600 device or tell me what spindowns I need to do and the files I need to provide..
No disrespect intended, if you haven’t you do you think you could send them a video that demonstrates the noisy vibration you are experiencing? Maybe record the vibration by pressing the phone/camera onto your handlebars? Sounds to this uninformed internet stranger like a bearing is bad or misadjusted. Something that would/should be obvious to them.
I had a friend return this trainer because it interfered with the acostics of concrete rooms, some frequencies resonate and the sound can be loud. Was not workable for his living situation.
Something else to try (yes, inconvenient, but I can freely insist because no skin in the game 🙂 ) is to move the trainer somewhere else and see if it is related to location or the surface.
I have my trainer setup on a hardwood deck that sits over vinyl matting. I get no vibration through my frame, unless I get the flywheel way up somewhere past 35 mph. At really high speeds there was a deep warbling sound and a deep buzzy feel to the bike, my whole house is resonating, but the bike’s drivetrain is still much louder than any of that.
Yep, I’ve found a couple of Android apps that will record vibrations using the accelerometer, or maybe I’m better off just recording video with any stabilisation setting turned off — and hope the vibrations show up in the video.
I noticed the Kickr mat is 6mm thick, and I’d say the mat I’m using is probably thinner than that. I might try a yoga mat to see if it makes any difference. Not sure I want to shell out $100 for the Wahoo mat if it doesn’t fix the issue.
Unfortunately the entire house is floorboards, so it will be a bit difficult trying elsewhere. Failing the yoga mat, I could possibly try setting up the Kickr outside on concrete to see if there’s any improvement.
The sound and vibration you describe sounds similar to what I’m experiencing, but at much lower speeds. Do you happen to roughly know how thick your vinyl matting is?
I still disagree with Wahoo that 33 second spindown is acceptable, especially after they advised it should be 17 – 23. Surely this would have an impact on belt slippage, etc — and would affect noise and vibrations.
My kickr is outside in a weird sort of covered area that is itself over a bedroom. The trainer is resting directly on 10’x3′ pallets made from 1×4″ ipe hardwood plank. The pallets have 1×4″ ipe cross pieces every 3 feet. Those pallets are resting directly on 2mm vinyl commercial roofing sheet, which overlays a regular house floor: plywood flooring, which is itself supported by 2×8 joists, and there’s a room underneath. There’s a slight hum in the room beneath when I’m on the trainer, but quieter than the furnace.
The deep thrumming sound when its going really fast is some sort of low frequency harmonic. Can feel it in my lungs and in the air.
Just to isolate and characterize the sound you might try putting the trainer directly on concrete, something solid, and see what sort of noise is made. I’m skeptical of a simple matt, wahoo or whatever. It might work, but then so would little bits of closed cell foam.
My guess, for this low frequency stuff, what you want is to put your trainer on a sheet of stone countertop remnant, maybe lie that over some carpet remnant or a sheet of cardboard. That would definitely damp vibration!
I really wouldn’t worry about too long spindown time. Loose belt is bad because it can slip free, but its a toothed belt so would need to be really loose to do that. Rule with belts is just barely tight enough that it never slips. Any tighter you are eating the belt and even bearings for no reason. Having less friction is good for you and the machine. Means its made well.
Vibration: IMO you need something heavier/denser than yoga pads. Try sorbathane pads under the contact points or the heavy rubber flooring used for garages.
I may have missed where you got your machine but this is an awful lot of effort for a relatively high $$ device. Either ship it back and get another or swap it out at the store you purchased. Or, if possible, find a shop/friend/studio that has one set up and compare performance.
I certainly hope a 33 second spindown time is okay. If so, Wahoo Support really need to improve their communication. I’ve been told it should be 17 – 23 seconds, and to adjust the belt to get the device into this range. But now, I’m told 33 seconds is okay. Reading around here and elsewhere, it seems other people are being told the same thing.
If Wahoo are going to claim the spindown should be 17 – 23 seconds, then claim higher is okay if tightening the belt fails to reduce the time sufficiently — they should be communicating this upfront. It’s a bad look for them to turn around after the fact and claim 33 seconds is okay, and reeks of a desperate attempt to avoid the problem and close out the support ticket. Having worked in IT myself, including support roles (a developer now, thankfully) — I know all too well the tactics used to close out tickets and artificially inflate KPIs.
Oh, the last email received told me to do a 20 minute workout above 100 watts. The previous email said 120 watts. It appears they are unable to take a consistent approach within single support tickets. Again, a very bad look that leads people to believe they don’t know their own product and hence are unlikely to rectify issues. It all makes me very nervous — so I might just have to bite the bullet and see if there’s a way I can return the device under Australian Consumer Law.
I think you guys need to step back and realize that this device is being made in small numbers by a small company. It is not going to be as reliable and well developed and relatively good value like a component that is built in the millions.
My support ticket with Wahoo ended up being escalated. Here’s the latest response:
“I am going to take over your ticket. So I can start from the top. A 30+ second spindown is no cause for alarm on the hardware of your unit. Many people see that after tightening the belt it can indeed produce more noise from the unit. When we initially tested the units pre-production we saw spindowns around 17-23 seconds depending on unit temperature. That’s where that number comes from. So you can tighten the belt to reach this spindown time but it may result in noise. You can also get a video of the noise if it’s highly concerning. Let me know if you’d like to either tighten the belt, do an advanced spindown, and then check the accuracy or if you’d like for me to look in to a return on the unit.”
So, their entry level support are incorrectly advising the spindown should be 17 – 23 seconds, and getting people to tighten the belt when not necessary. As per their instructions, I’ve done an advanced spindown to check the accuracy — but before making any further changes to the belt tension.
I now have a device where the belt was tightened as per instructions, and is noisier. So their support have made the situation worse by giving incorrect advice.
Regardless of the excuses about them being a small company producing a small quantity of devices, I fail to see how this is acceptable. And reading around, plenty of other people are receiving the same advice.
It sounds like you got someone initially that was confused. Perhaps they’ve had one confused person giving bad advice. I suspect by the phrasing of “I am going to take of your ticket”, that they know this, and they’ve probably taken that person outside and shot them. Seems the only logical thing to do.
If they haven’t, I’ll forward your note over and ensure it’s completed promptly.
In the meantime, it sounds like you’ve got the correct instructions.
“That spindown is little long compared to the tested model, so you can actually safely tighten the belt. If for some odd reason the belt does snap, I am more than happy to send a replacement. How is the calibration of the unit at this current state?”
So:
1) Told to tighten the belt to achieve 17 – 24 second spindown time
2) Tightened belt down to 33 – 35 seconds
3) Ticket escalated, and told that 30+ seconds is okay for spindown time, and tightening may produce noise
4) Ran advanced spindown
5) Now told the spindown is a ‘little long’, and to tighten — a new belt will be sent if it snaps (how long will this take?)
What the hell Wahoo? Get your story straight. I think I’ve totally lost faith at this point. I’m being told multiple, contradictory things — and there’s a large degree of uncertainty about how the product should work.
@eric — I’m unsure of the defensiveness. This is not an isolated case. If you search around online, you will find different people are being told to tighten the belt to achieve lower spindown times. However, apparently this doesn’t matter — yet now it does once again (?!?).
I think it’s more than fair to shoot the messenger at this point. Wahoo are unable to provide a consistent message and information as part of their support process, and it appears to be a broad reaching problem.
Being a smaller company as you claim, there should be less cause for concern as information is disseminated throughout the business..
Wahoo customer service is horrible. It seems like their growth has outpaced their staffing in support and they seem content telling you to the Kickr as is. Responses take days. No matter what the problem you describe their story changes but always ends in ‘everything is fine’.
I to was told to tighten a loose belt from mid 30s (as it was shipped to me) to 17-24. My Kickr became a LOT louder and it didn’t improve power meter accuracy at all.
In the end they told me everything looked fine on their end. Aside from power meter accuracy, I think the Kickr is great. I hope the smart trainer segment continues to grow. Some competition would do Wahoo good.
Agreed — thanks for the input. That has been my experience thus far, and I see from your post and others that I’m not alone.
Call me crazy, but I’m thinking of getting a Tacx Neo Smart instead. My (entry level) road bike is only an 8-speed cassette. So this will likely mean an upgrade to a 9/10/11 speed cassette (which is more $$$) — however, here in Australia, the Neo is only an extra $149 more than the Kickr at the moment. It’s quieter, and doesn’t need calibrating — which for me personally is a win.
Apart from having to upgrade shifters, cassette, etc — I’d happily pay the extra $149.
Not defensive. I’ll flush out what I meant: some schmuck is feeding bad advice to the public, hopefully, but it could be the whole support team. Ray suggested the poor broken support unit be taken out back… to me sort of like yelling at the guy behind the counter at KFC. Dude was following a script. Hopefully they’ve fixed it?
I don’t want to see the fry cook fired. But I would like to hear the engineering justification for whatever advice they give and/or gave.
What you experienced smells bad to me too. Its like if Toyota told me to overtighten my cars fan belt – id be irate too. Screaming mad. And belts breaking… what the heck? Those are gates belts! Those belts are engineered.
So i’d like to understand what they think they accomplish by overtightening belts.
Thanks for the clarification. Not really much of an engineering justification, but here is the response I received:
“The engineers have explained that the long spindown times have no negative impact as the belt tension is factored in during the spindown calibration process. I have just personally seen a couple cases where tightening the belt tension brought the KICKR calibration closer to the power readings from the external power meter. To be honest, I have no explanation for this. That is why I figured it would have no harm in trying it on your unit. I am not concerned about the belt snapping but I just wanted to let you know that if, for some odd reason, it did snap that I would provide replacement. The best way to fully integrate the adjusted tension in to the KICKR’s calibration is to run another advanced spindown post-belt tightening. That being said, I would also need more information about your external power meter as no two power meters will ever perfectly match.”
So there you have it. 17 – 23 seconds (or 24.. depending on who you listen to) is a standard based on earlier units. Belt tension is factored in to spin down calibration, so tightening the belt to lower the spin down time should not affect power accuracy, but sometimes does for no apparent or discernible reason.
For anyone with a newer model Kickr (2016) experiencing high spindown times, it may be the result of a bearing change in their supply chain. I received this email from Chip at Wahoo:
‘Sorry for the hassle you’ve had with your KICKR. If you can give us another day or two I think I’ve gotten to the bottom of the issue you are seeing with spindown times and accuracy. The instruction to tighten the belt in order to shorten the spindown time wasn’t correct. We got a couple units back that had the high spindown times and realized the factory had snuck in a new bearing on us that has much lower friction. That’s what caused the long spindown times, not loose belt. We’ve been able to characterize the new bearings with our dyno and have a beta firmware just about ready to release. If you can put the belt back to the original tension I should be able to get you the beta firmware shortly and you should have quiet and accurate. Sorry for the hassle it was a breakdown on our part where these bearings slipped into the supply chain without our knowledge and we didn’t pick up the issue right away.’
Unfortunately for me, it just throws further uncertainty into the equation and means I can’t be sure
of the device’s accuracy without comparing it to an external power meter — which opens up a whole new can of worms regarding differences (as we’ve seen above) — i.e. power loss through the drivetrain, etc.
Unfortunately, I’m not going through the long and arduous process of seeking a refund — but the above may be helpful for others experiencing similar issues and help avoid 4 weeks of pushback
against support who seem to be giving incorrect advice.
Wow, it is good that Wahoo is getting to the bottom of this issue. I guess the firmware will have to know what parameters to use for power calculations based on the serial number or manufacturing date of the V2.
I don’t even bother with it anymore since the tools reference my power meter for the target wattage. But for shorter efforts, and for better ride quality, it would be nice to not rely on power matching with an external power meter.
Our customer service folks helped us track down the source of the issue we were seeing. They are up to speed on the current status. Hopefully we’ll get a new firmware out for KICKR16 tomorrow. It will only affect KICKR16s manufactured recently. Our initial modeling didn’t consider KICKRs with spindown times in that range. We have updated the model to accommodate the wider range of spindown times and fully tested and validated their accuracy now. KICKRs with the new longer spindowns were generally underreporting power.
This is cool news. I bought a Kickr in January 2017, my spindown time is about 37s… the performance of the device seemed fine, but I was curious about the longer spin times compared to others.
How are we made aware of the new firmware, just via the Wahoo utility app? Does that include beta firmware? Or is this going to production?
I bought a a Kickr January 23rd and had a nearly identical experience. Kickr power seemed inaccurate, spindown times in the 30s, told by support to tighten belt which resulted in a noisy Kickr. My experience with Support was horrible. I kept getting told over and over again everything was functioning as expected. Turns out that wasn’t the case.
My case number is 274009. Can you please have someone from support make this right now that you identified the problem?
I’ll ask them to reach out Brian. Watch for the firmware update. It will prompt you if you use our Wahoo Fitness or Utility App. Pushing to get it out today. They can help you get the belt back to the optimal tension, that’s the other step you’ll need to do. Sorry for the hassle… Once the firmware is released they are going to notify all the folks that were affected.
I was just now prompted for a firmware upgrade on my January 2017 Wahoo Kickr “2”… the firmware version I have is now 3.3.53… I do plan to use the trainer later today and can report back any differences.
Thanks Chip. I love this, a fine result! Somehow support and engineers and production connected the dots. No more overtightening belts, firmware fixed, everyone wins.
I do sort of expect that this should have been caught at the factory. I’d think someone could rig up a test system that validated every unit’s accuracy before it went out, just to make sure everything is peachy. 5 minutes? A test would have caught the production change, then wahoo could have debugged the issue and fixed the firmware to work with longer spindown. Testing must be cheaper than support calls or returns.
Chip, I have a question for you: I ride erg mode with my mtb with low (quietest) gearing, my flywheel speed typically averages 7mph. The spindown cuts out and shows a result before the flywheel reaches that low speed. I’m wondering if the ‘spindown factor’ is correctly characterizing my trainer used at that low speed. Shouldn’t the spindown wait a bit longer to more fully characterize the curve, or is that not useful because the characterization is only a single exponent and the fast speed’s inaccuracy dominates?
Can you please provide some graphs showing us validation of both the problem, and the solution? Your company’s inconsistent message and support on this topic has severely damaged your credibility.
Standards such as ISO9000 (not sure if I have that number correct) or similar make it hard to switch things in a production run without lots of paperwork. It is a headache to the company, but good since consumers won’t have the types of issues we see with the Kickr since those issues can be resolved before changes to the product are shipped. I guess that is less of a headache to a company than lots of consumers complaining that something is not correct and the company having to try and figure out what changed.
You guys are tough… I am extremely sorry we screwed up! Our factory is ISO9000, the change was approved, unfortunately the impact wasn’t anticipated. We would love to be perfect but we’re not. We will always do our best to own it and fix things when we do mess up. The problem was we didn’t initially see KICKRs with spindown times in the range that we experienced after the change. Our testing protocols didn’t “fail” for longer than anticipated spindowns, we didn’t think to check for that condition. It got past all our production testing and QA and was ultimately discovered/reported by 6 customers. A few of those were incorrectly instructed to tighten the belt on their KICKR because that was the assumed reason the spindown times were longer than normal. We’ve updated our models to correctly account for the longer natural spindown times and released the update. The 6 customers that were instructed to tighten the belts have been contacted to explain the mistake and help them reset their belts to the correct tension and apply the firmware update. I don’t have any charts or graphs to show. There are several variables at play. KICKRs with longer than 30 second spindowns were underreporting from 5-40 watts depending on power output, actual spindown time, temperature, etc prior to the update we released yesterday.
Eric – The spindown is placing it on a curve that is fully quantified from very low to very high speeds. It’s not necessary to measure at the extremes to identify it’s characteristics.
It looks like I’ve got one of these Kickr v2 2016’s with the aforementioned low friction bearing as well. However, even with the latest firmware, I’m getting quite the large discrepancy in power readings between both my Power2max Type S and P2M NG; typically 15-20W difference when looking at a peak 5 min power for efforts above 300W.
One curious thing I’ve noticed though is that at ultra low speeds (radio tower climb in Zwift at 10kph/300ish Watts..100% trainer difficulty setting), the power readings seem to line up, and they seem to line up again when I’m riding at really high speeds (45+kph, 250ish Watts)
Just curious if anyone else is experiencing this issue?
My concerns are unfortunately being brushed aside by tech support, but here’s a controlled test I did – I set erg mode to start at 150W, adding 30W every 90 seconds with a final 90second stretch at 330W. I did this test with 4 different gear ratios kept at a (almost) constant 90RPMs. Gears, in order, were 39×21 (low flywheel speed), 39×14 (medium flywheel speed), 53×19 (medium flywheel speed; same ratio as 39×14), and 53×14.
What I found is that the lower the flywheel speed, the larger the discrepancy between my Power2Max NG and the Kickr2. At 20kph, I was putting out 354W average on the P2M NG for the 330W bit (and believe me, I felt it), but at 40kph, the P2M NG and Kickr2 suddenly matched within 2-3W.
One look at the analyzer and it becomes pretty clear that something is amiss – perhaps lower flywheel speeds = greater brake power, but somehow the brake is “underestimating” it’s power?
Yup, latest firmware, spindown was done after 10 minutes, etc. I agree though–perhaps the power model is just missing/misrepresenting something, and once it’s pinpointed, the math/formulas can easily be updated and pushed out with a firmware update.
Thank you for at least agreeing that something is off! The support guy hasn’t been very receptive to this idea and seems very eager to simply close the ticket and move on..
Chip: would greatly appreciate it if you could weigh in!
I was an early adopter of KICKR and I am now into my 4th winter with this device. It is the best training tool for the long winter months in Ohio and is worth every cent. The hardware is bullet proof in my opinion.However software is another issue. Two examples today, one very very annoying and potentially serious the other just plain annoying.
KICKR Firmware Update: Riding KICKR on Zwift and riding fine. Typically I will do a spindown every couple of weeks to make sure the device is calibrated. I notice there is a firmware update when I access the app today, After the update completed, KICKR cannot track power, spiking all over the place and resistance and speed all inconsistent. Tried all evening to achieve a successful spindown but to no avail. Device is now out of action and I have opened a ticket with Wahoo.
Wahoo Fitness App: I use this for running mostly. I updated it today. Every time it updates it loses some of the settings for Audio Announcement, once or twice this would be tolerable but every time it updates?
Unfortunately I just ran into a frame compatibility problem 🙁
Canyon Ultimate CF SL (same mold as the previous SLX) – Works with KICKR1 and KICKR2
Canyon Ultimate CF SLX 2016 (the current version) – Works with KICKR1, does NOT work with KICKR2
Notice the trainer arm contacts the inside of the chainstay/dropout area.
I sent an email to Wahoo earlier, so rather than re-type it, here’s the main point.
“The rear non-drive side dropout of my Canyon Ultimate CF SLX (2016) does not fit my new KICKR (2016 ver). I didn’t have this problem with my previous, original KICKR (2013 ver), on which when the 130/135mm adapter is installed for 130mm, sits proud of the steel frame. Whereas on the new KICKR 2016, when installed for 130mm the adapter sits flush with the welded circular part of the steel frame. It’s this steel part that rubs the chainstay on my bike.”
I can’t find a single photo online of an Ultimate CF SLX + KICKR2 combination, so perhaps it’s not just me. And curiously, Wahoo sponsors the Canyon/SRAM women’s team with SNAPs, not KICKRs. I wonder if it’s my frame that is out of spec with regards to hub/dropout “keep out” areas, or of the KICKR2 is out of spec.
Kai – In your first photo of 3/23, I see a visible space between the chainstay/dropout area of the bikeframe and the Kickr. I am not sure what you mean by making contact. At least, it doesn’t appear evident in that picture.
The inside face of the dropout is square. It’s just that the flat part is unusually small, less than 20mm in diameter. And the “endcap” of the Kickr2 “hub” is unusually large, and contacts the frame outside of the flat inner face of the dropout.
My Canyon Endurace does something similar although not quite as bad. It just ever so slightly touches the chainstay. Was thinking of filling off a couple of mm of material from the trainer but thought I would email Wahoo first to see what they say.
Today I ride first time KICKR 2 on ZWIFT.
Very nice response.
But I also use new SRM power meter.
What I see, the power from KICKR avg. 10-20W higher than on SRM PC8.
Did you noticed same?
Just picked up a new Kickr 16 for my Fiance. Using the same ANT+ dongles I use with my Tacx Neo on Zwift I am getting tons of little power drops (never had these drops with the Neo that is in the same room right next to it and turned off while using the Kickr). I updated the Kickr using the Wahoo app to the newest software version and did an advanced spindown. Overall I can still use Zwift, but approximately every 30 seconds it will instantly flash to 0 watts and then pick up again maybe 2-4 seconds later. What’s happening? I’d say wifi interference, but it never happened with my Neo. It’s frustrating to say the least and sometimes caused the Zwift rider to stop and get off the bike. Is this a known issue?
Are you using a pc or mac?
What dongle are you using?
What drivers are you using?
I can at least share my setup experience. Hope it helps. I cheaped-out as much as possible, got the Anself ANT+ from amazon for $15 along with an 8′ usb extension cable (to keep dongle away from laptop). I am using the trainerroad drivers against windows 10. I get a fantastic connection to the kickr, no drops/spikes with golden cheetah or trainerroad. I hate zwift so never tried it. That same dongle also works fine with the cadence sensor and my tickr hrm.
I have a reconditioned original kickr. Frankly was surprised how well it has been working for me after reading years of grief.
Here’s some free advice from a random internet schmuck:
– If you’re using a mac I have no advice for you.
– To reduce interference: Experiment and make sure to disable any potentially noisy devices nearby (electric motors, microwave, a different trainer, garbage disposal, garage door, fluorescent lights, cell phones, etc).
– Make sure you’re connecting as ant+. Could it be using accidentally connecting to ble?
– If you’re not using the Garmin or Anself dongle I’d order an anself because its cheap and it worked great for me. Search for: “Anself USB ANT+ Stick Compatible with Garmin Forerunner 310XT 405 405CX 410 610 910 011-02209-00”.
-try the trainerroad drivers (because they worked for me.)
-If you don’t have a long usb cable to separate the dongle from the computer then get one of them too. I feed the dongle to within 3 feet of the trainer. I get a poor connection if its through a door or more than 7-9 feet away.
– do you have an iPhone? Does the iPhone zwift app also dropout?
Anyway, that’s my experience and some details that might help us if you shared. Hope it somehow helps.
Using Macbook Pro. Garmin ANT+ dongle. What do you mean what drivers? Just purchased the long USB male to female cable so we shall see if that helps…….
Have been using KICKR for several years. Mine was a pre-order before it was initially shipping so it’s KICKR1 rev1. The past week or two I’ve noticed VeloReality rides have had unusually low power readings on climbs and that the power would swing dramatically up and down without any change in how I was riding. Updated firmware, re-calibrated and did a triple recording of power (VeloReality, Fenix, Wahoo app) to eliminate the possibility of a bad cable or ANT+ USB adapter. Cleaned the optical sensor, and still had the same problem.
Called Wahoo support and they had me download some beta firmware and do an advanced spindown which ends up eliminating the strain gauges (sort of a relative to the software being used in KICKR2). Everything seems to be working fine again. The setup hadn’t been moved or disturbed, but apparently the strain gauges may have gone bad. EXCELLENT support from Wahoo!
I just called REI. They said once inventory runs low, the online site takes it off so you can’t even search for it. The guy looked in the store and said they dont have any left.. So local stores may still have it.
Yeah, I’d keep an eye on it. It’s interesting, people are definitely picking up units. It’s unclear to me if perhaps REI inventory is shifting around (i.e. a unit goes from a local store back to a central distribution center, or what-not), but seeing occasional sales come through on the KICKR.
That said, REI does seem to have a bit of a habit of running low on KICKR’s during these sales. I’m not sure if it’s intentional, or just simply they don’t expect to have a big spike on them. I suppose if they normally sell a handful per week, and then turn around and sell 100-200 per week, that’s a big shift. And last I chatted with them they didn’t really have a very focused bike-industry buyer, so they may not be in-tune with the deal.
I’m just thinking of paying out for a Kickr as I am getting frustrated with the power match feature in TrainerRoad on my Tacx Vortex. The Vortex only has a 10-15% accuracy and is very slow to respond to power changes coming from Garmin Vector 2’s (double sided).
Can anyone comment who is using TrainerRoad and the Kickr with Power match. Does the Kickr respond well to changes coming your power meter? I feel like i’m constantly fighting with the Vortex.
Power matching has its own issues, even with a Kickr. In my opinion, power matching works better in PerfPro Studio than TrainerRoad, but neither are very good for short intervals (less than a few minutes). They aren’t bad for longer intervals. The Kickr has its own power matching setting configurable through the Wahoo Fitness App, but that is worse than PerfPro and TrainerRoad for me.
Anyone using the Kickr 2 with a Canyon Endurace CF frame? I’ve run into some compatibility issues with the non-drive side Chainstay slightly touching the Kickr and was wondering if anyone else had a similar problem or if anyone with this frame has had no issue indicating its a problem with my particular frame . And yes its on straight etc.
Was hoping to find some other people using this frame on the Kickr.
Got my Kickr this week and just thought I would share my experience for those who google their way here.
Bike: Merckx Eeklo 70 (2015) – no issue with dropouts or chainstays fitting. Everything sits perfectly.
My RPM Cadence sensor did not work out of the box. No connection via bluetooth or Ant. I replaced the battery with the battery from my garmin cadence sensor, then the Ant connection worked but still no bluetooth. Finally bought a new battery and now everything works! I was able to update the firmware via the wahoo app after the first connection.
My Kickr has a spindown time of around 40 seconds after 15 minutes or so of riding. I have no power meter so no way of judging if power is accurate, but it’s probably not way off if I consider RPE and my current cycling fitness level.
I’ve been having intermittent dropout issues in TR using the ios app, every few minutes power drops to zero, I generally wait, backpedal, enjoy the break and then everything ramps back up again after maybe 5 seconds. You can see the gaps in this trainerroad ride: link to trainerroad.com
The above has only happened when connected via bluetooth. When connected via ant to my PC I didn’t get these issues, but I did get some kind of strange stepwise ramping that you can see here at the start of each interval: link to trainerroad.com I solve it I will post here.
Despite the above I’m actually pretty happy, it feels really well put-together and is much quieter than my Elite Quobo Fluid which is meant to be one of the quietest non-direct drive trainers.
So just a heads up to those interested, I had a KICKR Snap that I picked up (last one I think in NYC early December) that I just loved, having never used a trainer before.
That noted, by the spring as I swapped from fun “rides” indoors on Zwift to a more serious training regimen on TrainerRoad (Zwift had yet to get ERG mode set up properly with my P1 pedals), I finally bit the bullet and during the VIP sale picked up the KICKR2.
Arrived last week and I have used it all week. So far the notable and awesome positives are:
(1). No more annoyance with swapping between two wheels on the rear and no more concerns constantly making sure tire pressure is maxed out, etc.
(2). I have a Giant Defy Advanced Pro 2 (2016) and a Giant Defy Advanced SL 1, both with disc brakes. I was really fearing the issue with the disc caliper hitting the KICKR2, but no issues there! Very close, but not hitting! Incidentally both frames are mediums.
(3). While using trainer road, I immediately have noticed that I have far less of bouncing around of the resistance which can be so annoying when trying to keep at a stable power level during segments. It really feels extremely smooth and I get to focus far more on my cadence, speed, and power output rather than at times seeming to fight the delays and drops in resistance that would happen with the SNAP.
Regarding sound, there is no question that the Snap feels to me quieter than the KICKR2 which makes sense. However, though I initially was a bit concerned by what I felt was the high pitched whine of the KICKR2, over time not only have I found myself quickly getting used to it, but almost appreciating its presence. It doesn’t appear to distract me while using either Zwift and/or TrainerRoad (or in my case both concurrently).
So far so good. Will continue to use the KICKR Snap as well for training in another location I have, but for my main training indoors clearly the KICKR2 is a keeper!
Incidentally, I was very tempted by the TACX Neo, and there are things about it that look awesome – but between the price and my fear that my disc brake calipers might hit (heard some horror stories about that), plus the size, weight, etc., just felt like the KICKR2 is the right compromise for me.
And not really a compromise in my books!
Also have experienced no drops or anything along those lines.
Well done and thank you for such an in depth and informative website. There are way too many biased sponsored reviews out there. I’ve read many a review on here before that left no rock unturned, but for the first time I’de really appreciate a bit more info if possible.
I’ve read through most of the replies, but couldn’t confirm unambiguous specifics on a few points.
I’ve just had my second rotator cuff repair in 9 months, compliments of trying to get too rad too soon at the Cascades DH track in Pietermaritsburg. What an awesome place it is though, highly recommend even if you only ride enduro. So needless to say I’m on an extended sabbatical from DH.
1. Is the trainer compatible with a 650b hardtail and softtail? 142×12 and 148×12 respectively.
2. Can the cassette be changed with my bike’s 11 spd cassettes ? i.e. I have an XT cassette on my HT and an X01 on my ST.
3. On the same note will the trainer be compatible with 11spd cassettes 10-42?
4. I’de imagine that pedalling at slower mtb speeds there would be less noise. Your guess?
5. I’ve read a lot of negative reviews with connectivity issues. I really am not a patient person, and prefer low tech hassle free to a whole bunch of gadgets I’ll probably never use anyway. With that in mind are there other more suitable trainers you would recommend to suit the bill? I don’t mind paying for blatantly superior products.
Well done and thank you for such an in depth and informative website. There are way too many biased sponsored reviews out there. I’ve read many a review on here before and never needed more detail because no rock had been left unturned, (high five emoji), but for the first time I’de really appreciate a bit more info if possible.
I’ve read through most of the replies, but couldn’t confirm unambiguous specifics on a few points.
I’ve just had my second rotator cuff repair in 9 months, compliments of trying to get too rad too soon at the Cascades DH track in Pietermaritsburg. What an awesome place it is though, highly recommend even if you only ride enduro. So needless to say I’m on an extended sabbatical from DH.
1. Is the trainer compatible with a 650b hardtail and softtail? 142×12 and 148×12 respectively.
2. Can the cassette be changed with my bike’s 11 spd cassettes ? i.e. I have an XT cassette on my HT and an X01 on my ST.
3. On the same note will the trainer be compatible with 11spd cassettes 10-42?
4. I’de imagine that pedalling at slower mtb speeds there would be less noise. Your guess?
5. I’ve read a lot of negative reviews with connectivity issues. I really am not a patient person, and prefer low tech, hassle free, jump on and go to a whole bunch of gadgets I’ll probably never use anyway. However, I don’t mind forking out for obviously superior products. With that in mind are there other more suitable trainers you would recommend that suit the bill?
I have a vibration question re. Kickr2 (already going back and forth with Wahoo, but want community thoughts).
I consistently and repeatedly get significant vibration through the bike when getting into the low 40s km/h. Is this something which others are finding with their units? Do people find vibration and shrug this off as par for course?
After some digging around, I found a video of this brave soul attempting some DIY flywheel balancing .. and along the way he showed drilled areas on his flywheel which looks like (presumably unsuccessful) factory attempts to balance the wheel.
That is really interesting. Yes, I have just got a Wahoo Kickr Snap. I can confirm I get the same crazy vibrations at higher speeds. Thankfully because of my MTB setup on it, I don’t train at those kind of speeds all that much.
Now that you have brought this to my attention, I will definitely be taking it back to the shop to be looked at properly. I also have never experienced this with any kind of trainer before.
Do other people have to adjust their rear derailleur every time they put their bike on (or take it off) the KICKR? With the new KICKR, my 11 speed bike is horribly out of tune when I put it on the KICKR. It seems like i need to adjust the limit screws a LOT to move the derailleur towards the bike. It’s really hard to tune the derailleur when you are fighting the resistance of the KICKR.
I thought I’d be smart and buy some 0.3 mm cassette spacers to push the cassette a little towards the bike. I added 3 and it makes things better. I clearly need to add another 1 or 2, but the cassette lockring no longer reaches the threads of the freehub.
Why is the KICKR over 1mm out of alignment with my bike frame? Is it because I have a 142mm frame with a thru-axle? It’s VERY frustrating when you want to use a single bike on the road and on the trainer. I wish the KICKR somehow allowed some lateral movement of the cassette.
Strangely enough, my 10 speed bike works just fine on and off the KICKR with no retuning (using the provided 1.8mm spacer). With my old first generation KICKR, I used to have the same problem with my 10 speed bike.
I agree that somewhere in the combo the spacers are incorrect on one of the two spots. That said, thru-axle’s are a bit more nebulous to me (as I simply don’t have any bikes with them). I’d reach out to Wahoo support, as I’m sure they’ve seen this before and can probably offer some super quick-tips to getting you back in silence again (not silencing you, just the noise).
Kickers are terrible, overpriced piece of garbage, Already had 3 and will not buy another one for sure. Who designed the case where derailleur touches it in 28 cog?? WTF all 4 of my bikes are pushing hard on the case when derailed is in highest gear. I have doubts they actually tested them in real world, more like virtual “fluid testing”. Now Kickers without string gauge are no different from literally bullet proof Kinetic Kurt fluid trainer and virtual power, it is exactly the same crap minus ERG. Kicker was awesome when it was released, but no more.
After one season of usage at 8-12 hours a week I have a feeling flywheel\bushings\bearings? get worn off and a bit loose, and power no matter how many times you spin down is always off (no string gauge), it only works semi ok with external power meter. I said semi ok because during 30:30 intervals it takes 15 sec to get to vo2MAX power and you only have 15s interval left, to work around you need to design intervals correctly…The guy in video says they test this at 100W? Who is this design for? Grandma and her colleagues form retirement home? This season I’m getting Tacx Neo and we will see how it performs. Maybe I’m a bit biased, but how I can be not biased after having 3 different devices, I paid full price for each time…
Wow, that’s a super strong opinion, but I can understand being frustrated if you’ve paid for 3 of them.
I loved my original KICKR. In my opinion, it was such a leap from the Kurt Kinetic Road machine that I forgave some of its imperfections. When I upgraded to the new KICKR, I was really disappointed that it didn’t seem better. It doesn’t seem quieter to my ear and I don’t feel like the new power measurement is more responsive. On top of that, I’m surprised they haven’t nailed the thru axle setup (it’s poor).
Saying all that, I like Wahoo as a company. I would just like to see a little more innovation before I upgrade again. Here’s my wishlist:
1. Silent (like the Tacx Neo)
2. Rock solid thru axle connection with no derailleur adjustment.
3. Side to side movement (like the Kurt Kinetic Rock and Roll).
4. Adjuster to laterally move the cassette so that you don’t have to adjust your derailleur.
I’m confused – what’s it hitting on? I don’t see how it could hit on anything unless you didn’t raise the KICKR using the lever below it?
Regarding accuracy, actually, there’s quite a difference there. The Kurt Kinetic and Virtual Power has no reference, no calibration. So it’ll vary based on tightness and air pressure.
I had the same problem with 1 bike on the original KICKR where the derailleur (barely) touched the flywheel when I was in the biggest cog in the cassette. I use ERG mode almost exclusively though, so it hasn’t been a problem for me.
For reference, it was a 10 speed (11-36) cassette with a long cage SRAM X9 derailleur.
Read the review for the 2017 KICKR Snap. With the regular KICKR updated last fall, should we expect a 2017/2018 New(er) KICKR later this year? Or will it hold steady for a while?
Looking ahead to purchasing a trainer for the fall when I have to deal with wet and cold again…
Has anyone figured out how to prevent the ant+ dropouts on the kickr. I just got mine from CT last week and I get multiple dropouts on my garmins (FR935 and Edge 820). I have the extension cable for the computer but I log everything in GC. I have tried leaving my cell phone outside of the room, the fan is 8ft away and it still has dropouts.
Also, the power seems low. I know I am comparing P1’s to the Kickr and there will be differences in that but the perceived effort seems hard for the given watts. I may set up my other bike on it to see how both compare to my quarq.
In a 1.5- 2 hour TrainRoad workout I will get 3-5 dropouts for a short period-couple of seconds. I have the TV and four fans running. I don’t know if this creates the dropouts or not. I don’t have a power meter but I’m sure my FTP is considerably lower than PE, HR and 30 years of riding would lead me to believe. I know I produce negative watts but not this low! However for TR purposes it doesn’t matter as the Kick’r is “accurate” by that I mean consistent. If you determine the reason for the low watts let me know.
Mike
Thanks for the response. I did a 1 hr TR session and had ~20 dropouts with the longest being ~8 seconds. That seems high to me for a $1200 trainer. I haven’t contacted Wahoo support yet, thought I’d reach out here first.
As far as power goes, the normalized power between my P1s and the Kickr today was about 7% different so given the power meter locations and accuracy its in the “ballpark” but last week I did a ride had ~14% difference between the two. If the accuracy stays how it is today I’m fine with that but if it goes back to the 14% I’ll have more of a concern. For the record, I did a spin down on last weeks session and the zero offset on the P1s did not change during the ride. I actually didn’t do a spin down today and I only did the zero offset before I started.
There’s no reason to use a high-tooth-count cassette. The KICKR can give the proper resistance no matter what gear you are in. Typically you just need to shift the chain in a middle sprocket on the cassette and leave it alone.
Has anyone else had problems with their Kickr V2 stopping providing resistance suddenly and nothing can be done get make to come back. Wahoo have swapped out my Kickr once already and 4 months later the same as happened again. Is this a known issue with the V2? Thanks
It turns out as I have my Kickr next to the window it interferes with the optional sensor. Wahoo have provided me with a beta firmware that has resolved the issue although I am seeing that when trying to follow a plan on Trainerroad the power match with my vector pedals shows slightly more variance. This is however is much better than a very expensive paper weight,
I’m not wahoo tech support, nor do I play them on tv, but here’s my advice.
It sounds like your machine’s resistance curve isn’t set right.
1) Have you done a spindown?
2) Have you done an ‘advanced spindown’?
I would start with those two actions, even before I contacted wahoo.
For erg mode: Find and stick with the smoothest less-cross chain-I-est pair of gears you have, you want to minimize drivetrain resistance because wahoo cannot detect it. Generally lower gears work better, the kickr is more accurate and seems to respond faster at lower speeds.
I do my workouts with a mountain bike in a 32×17, that is a straight shot for the chain.
I’ve read your review above and also one on http://vikao.net, both are positive overall but, do you think the Kickr costing twice as much as the Kickr Snap, has twice the performance benefits and is worth paying double the amount of the Snap?
I have both the Snap and the KICKR and the difference is considerable, yes I think the investment is sound.
Direct drive means no slippage, no worries on the thermal side as the tire heats up, no need for separate training tires and/or having tire blowouts, etc.
My power readings and control are far better with the KICKR.
Downside? You have to of course take off your rear wheel and sometimes that can be a pain – but then again, because I didn’t want to screw up my normal tires for outdoor use, I was doing that anyway since I would put a training wheel on for the Snap. So really not a downside in my opinion.
I am struggling with the new KICKR 2017 and having to adjust my rear deraileur on my two Giants to deal with getting through all the gears on the stock installed 11-speed cassette – not sure but think there is a slight change since the KICKR2 in spacing such that I need to do this (did not do it for the KICKR2).
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Any word on if the new belt will be available to purchase and compatible to retrofit to the original unit?
2nd that question
Third.
I just wanted to clarify, it’s not actually a new belt. The belt is the same as the original KICKR. It’s a few of the other internals that allow the new KICKR to be quieter. Unfortunately, there is no a way to convert the old KICKRs.
If you look at the cover picture, you can see that it’s a Gates timing belt 😉 Technically you could buy it anywhere that sells Gates (Napa, CarQuest, maybe Autozone, etc), but if you google the part number, one of the top results is direct from Wahoo!
link to wahoofitness.com
Indeed, thanks for the clarity Tyler. Chip walked me through some of the additional hardware changes this evening down below in terms of spacing/etc.. that contributed to the much lower noise profile.
Holes in the sprocket to let air out?
Ugh. Magnus or this…Ray it’s my birthday today, whatta ya say, I’m torn.
How do you pedal that fast?
That’s an amazing cadence.
Cupcakes. Lots of cupcakes.
“We found that the [original KICKR] strain gauge was sensitive, and had a high failure rate.”
so are they replacing the old faulty one with this one?
If I’m reading this correctly, Wahoo is using a completely different technique to measure power with the KICKR2.
I know Kickr has gotten quite a bit of flak for power drift and other power inconsistencies, but part of me wonders if this was a cost-reduction driven decision. I.e. they removed the strain guage and how are they now measuring power? Is it just calculations? And is it true power or estimated power?
“a high failure rate.” – sounds to me like they should do a recall but we all know that ain’t going to happen.
Looks like it is calculated, although it doesn’t seem to matter for the most part as it appears to be accurate
I’ll try and get Chip to give me a video walk-through explanation of the new measuring system and why he says it’s better. He walked me through it a bit tonight, but repeating all the science/logic behind it would be tough for me to do off the top of my head. It’s not just calculations, but rather additional sensors.
As for failure rates, keep in mind that also includes failures that they caught in QA between production lines and you, which was an aspect as well.
Hey Ray, are you implying that Tacx has a new Neo coming up in Septemeber or I read it wrong?
No, just I’m finally getting around to getting my review out. That’s all.
@DC……did you mean “zapping” here? “Pro Tip: Follow this suggestion to avoid swapping your new KICKR and yourself.” I think you mean zapping…..
fixed 🙂
Thanks Ray for the review. I don’t know if i could see the live Q&A with wahoo this evening but i hope that:
1) you will ask him about the ‘broadcasting of target power vs measured power’ issue
2) there will be a why to see/read what wahoo will answer later
i ll read again the review later. great job !
Fabio
Yup, indeed.
So I chatted with Chip tonight about it (albeit I think before/after the broadcast), and they think they know what’s going on there and it’s an easy change.
Essentially in ERG mode (what TR was using), it’s filtering out the accelerations in that broadcast, which is why I see such a ‘clean’ file. If you dig into the data deep enough, you do see slight variances. It was a decision they made to maximize stability output, but he agreed it didn’t seem to make much since in this case. Anyways, it sounded like a very simple firmware update change to just output a different metric instead.
Have Wahoo indicated how long they will support the original kickr with firmware updates etc? I hope it’s not going end of life any time soon.
KICKR firmware is pretty stable now, but if something comes out we will do updates. While I couldn’t put a number on it, we will still support the current KICKR for many many years.
Do we know if the “New KICKR”/KICKR2 has better support for 32t cog cassettes and mid-long cage derailleurs?
Did you omit the actual price of the new unit? Is it priced the same? What is that price? Can’t find that info in the article. Everything else…. STELLAR!
US$1199 at CT: link to clevertraining.com
Yup, plus don’t forget about the DCR VIP deal, which basically gets you 10% back.
Ray, I’m a CT VIP but I don’t see a discount if I add the new KICKR to my cart. ?
With the VIP discount for this and the Garmin products, it’s 10% back in points. So you get it upon checkout. Which you can then immediately use to purchase something else (i.e. $120 worth of credit).
Thanks for the support!
Looks like the original KICKR is on sale for $899 at link to wahoofitness.com, until they run out of units.
I’m most interested in seeing what this will do with the original KICKR pricing. Any thoughts on buying the original?
Seeing it for 1079.99 USD at Performance. If that’s the discount, I don’t see why I’d buy the old over the new.
I was hoping the original would come down to the 900 range.
It’s the same price as the original KICKR, but not the new discounted price for the original KICKR. Meaning, it says at $1,199, whereas the original KICKR is currently discounted as a sell-off at $1,079.
“remove your weight wheel”
rear not weight
Thanks.
Glad to see your review here.
An unnamed retailer leaked the entire product description by making their kickr2 page live prematurely.
Yeah, I saw. Sad panda.
Broadcasting target power versus measured seems like a complete joke. Post workout interval analysis basically is not possible unless you are recording from a separate PM. Did the Old Kickr do the same?
The old KICKR showed actual power (or what it measured, at least). Really useful on sprints so you knew if you were making the target or not.
So I chatted with Chip tonight about it (albeit I think before/after the broadcast), and they think they know what’s going on there and it’s an easy change.
Essentially in ERG mode (what TR was using), it’s filtering out the accelerations in that broadcast, which is why I see such a ‘clean’ file. If you dig into the data deep enough, you do see slight variances. It was a decision they made to maximize stability output, but he agreed it didn’t seem to make much since in this case. Anyways, it sounded like a very simple firmware update change to just output a different metric instead.
Thanks for the clarification Ray, great review by the way!
The side by side (literally) video was VERY helpful. Thanks Ray!
Seconded. Hope it’s a permanent fixture in all trainer reviews going forward. Maybe Ray can work out/decide on a “standard to compare all trainers against”.
Yeah, I kinda plan to. I won’t necessarily compare it to every other trainer each time, but pick one that’s appropriate as a comparison (i.e. Drivo vs Neo, or Drivo vs KICKR, etc…).
Love the idea. Can’t wait.
any chance of a “from above” or “from front” pic of the diagonal block in front of the non drive side drop out?
Difficult to tell but it looks like it would get in the way of chain stay mounted disc brake.
For a post mount disc brake on chainstay the bottom of the post mount is about 15mm above the height of the top of the dropout & about ~15mm inboard of drop out.
A little concerning as from the picture the disc brake clearance looks closer than the Neo (with the Neo calipers often had to be removed) although obviously difficult to tell scale on internet pics
I’ll take one in the morning, it’s kinda dark out now.
Hi Jeff,
First off will also say: Ray, I have a ton of respect for your site – phenomenal reviews all around.
I actually recently began my cycling blog and have just received my Wahoo Kickr 2016. I ride a Cannondale Caadx and can definitively say that in my case, there were no issues whatsoever with my disc brake caliper. If you want to see more information / pictures of that set up: link to cyclehaven9w.blogspot.com
My pictures really don’t do the product justice, relative to Ray’s professional grade pics!
I wont be replacing my KICKR with a KICKR2, mostly because they didn’t change to yellow stripes on the flywheel like that one guy had this summer.
It is difficult to measure, but my biggest complaint about the KICKR was its ability to keep up with big changes in wattage. Has that improved? The text says so but no wored on how it feels.
It seems pretty quick to me, especially in the BLE controlled version from TR.
Hope you didn’t injure yourself during this review, resulting in going ‘out on a limp’…. (it should be ‘limb’, and while I know you appreciate corrections I still feel mean! /grammarnazi).
Kudos on the Ray vs Ray video, all it was missing was some snide remarks to other-Ray about his effort/cupcake penchant ?
Thanks, fixed.
On the split-screen, it actually wasn’t something I had planned before hand. I had planned to just do a simple cut back and forth. Had I planned it, I might have had more fun with it. Next time. 🙂
But I was doing some split-screen stuff for the VIRB + GoPro videos, and came up with the idea there.
Great review, Ray.
I hope this makes it into a prize draw at some point. I’d love the opportunity to win it, it looks perfect for me. I’d buy one but, yeah, student and all :-\
Keep up the good work!
Definitely quieter and a far nicer tone to it. Big fan of the kickr but given how close the pricing is between kickr and Neo here in the UK I think most people will probably go Neo. Unless you need the more flexible fitments that the kickr gives you.
I purchased the “old” KICKR a month ago, but I was curious about how the new KICKR might differ. Regarding the noise, the whine produced by the KICKR is louder than any other trainer I’ve used. However, I’ve gotten used to it and actually kinda like it! Fumbling around underneath the unit to make the electrical connection is not ideal, but it’s manageable. From my perspective, the most significant improvement in the new KICKR is that of the handle. I think the handle on my old unit is practically useless.
The biggest problem I’ve had with my KICKR is the cassette. With the original cassette, the chain made quite a racket! I swapped it out for a Dura Ace cassette I had lying around, and it improved – but it’s still not optimal. In this respect, it’s rather temperamental. One minute it’s humming along without any problems, and the next minute the chattering starts. To be honest, this behavior is usually triggered when I change gears. Frequently I can recover by fiddling with the gears. Anyway, even my old KICKR is a significant improvement over the “smart” trainer it replaced. Now, if only I could retrofit the new handle!
Does the mountain bike adapter still work on the new model? The non drive side dropout area looks a little different…
I wonder if it is even possible to transmit actual power data since an algorithm is feeding the power input for electromagnetic resistance. Thus another algorithm would be necessary to calculate speed of the flywheel to extrapolate power, wouldn’t this just be sort of a feedback loop???
Yes, it is.
So I chatted with Chip tonight about it (albeit I think before/after the broadcast), and they think they know what’s going on there and it’s an easy change.
Essentially in ERG mode (what TR was using), it’s filtering out the accelerations in that broadcast, which is why I see such a ‘clean’ file. If you dig into the data deep enough, you do see slight variances. It was a decision they made to maximize stability output, but he agreed it didn’t seem to make much since in this case. Anyways, it sounded like a very simple firmware update change to just output a different metric instead.
Ray – I am still a die hard Computrainer user. I use it with the PerfPro software and it is awesome. I notice that at the end of articles like these, you never include the Computrainer in the comparison section. As far as I can tell, the Computrainer is more accurate that just about everything else and it can simulate greater grades. I know that it is a dinosaur and the hardware is pretty blah, but is there a reason that you never include it? PS – great article, as always. Thanks for all the work you do here.
The CompuTrainer isn’t more accurate than these trainers these days (in fact, it’s well known to drift quite a bit in the first 10-15 mins).
Max resistance appears to be 15%, which is below what the top-end trainers are offering these days (KICKR, NEO, etc..). It tops out at 1,500w, which is in the ballpark s others, though typically you’d get slippage above that (versus direct drive you’d just spin-out). It’s also more expenisve ($1,600).
But more than that, I just can’t recommend it on really any level. I could see if you could get a unit for maybe $500 (used), maybe. But that’s it. I know there are a handful of people that do have random connectivity issues with wireless trainers, but that doesn’t even make up a fraction of a percent of the interest-traffic I see.
“Tacx Flux: (…) Sound-wise it’s equal to or quieter than all but the NEO.”
So I read that right and the Flux is quieter than the Drivo?
Yes, based on the conditions I’ve been able to listen to the latest unit from Tacx in, I think it is. But, I haven’t managed to drag it away to a silent room yet somewhere.
Can someone help me understand what this means: “broadcasting of target power vs measured power” and how it applies?
I didn’t understand the explanation from the interview either….
Target power is the power level you tell the KICKR to set in ERG mode (not applicable to other modes). i.e. I tell it to use 250w, and the KICKR will hold that. But, there’s aspects such as if you instantly sprint out of nowhere that it’ll fluctuate a bit – so that’s measured power.
Thanks. So, if you do a workout in erg, you do or do not get a number of your actual work?
If not in erg mode, say doing a free ride in zwift, that would be measured power output right?
For current users… How do you have your head unit set up if you already have a PM on your bikes? Do you record the output from the powermeter or the Kickr? Do you display them both while on the trainer?
And has anyone used this with GoldenCheetah? I’m thinking I would use GC to set up workouts, and not even bother connecting to it via my GPS unit.
I typically record the power output using the normal ANT+ power profile, if driving the trainer from Zwift, etc…
I use Zwift/etc. to record the Kickr Snap and my Fenix 3 records my P1s.
I wonder if a new version of the Snap will be coming out? I had one, the power accuracy was a joke, exchanged it and the replacement also had awful power accuracy. In the end I returned the second one for a refund.
No, nothing planned. This is it for the 2015-2016 trainer season.
Nothing to drag me away from the NEO. It’s quieter, does not need calibration and also works with all the apps I know.
I have accuracy issues with my 1. Gen Kickr and I still have warranty.
In the past contacting Wahoo’s support was pretty useless, just got some standard response on how all powermeters are different and bla bla bla. Not really addressing the issue that my three powermeters report all about the same and only the Kickr would report (to a varying degree) totally different numbers.
Based on this “They also said it more importantly reduced failures, specifically noting during a call: “We found that the [original KICKR] strain gauge was sensitive, and had a high failure rate.” And thus when they “eliminated the strain gauge, it reduced failure rate”. This may help to explain why some people had accuracy problems with the KICKR, yet others had no issues at all. Failure may also not be black and white in this case either, especially when looking at components such as this gauge.”
Can I claim warranty? I definitely won’t buy another product from such a company but since I’ve already spent so much money I’d like to improve the situation. At the moment I need a second powermeter to get accurate and above all consistent wattage readings.
And I won’t start complaining about the “silence” claim.
Depending on where you live and when you bought it might be a possibility.
Great review! Would love to see a video comparison of the sound of the new Kickr vs the Cycleops Hammer in the same setting. By looking at your video preview of the Hammer it seems to me that its pitch is lower though the rated decibels are higher. Which one do you think is quieter?
Once I get a production Hammer I will do the same. Now that I’ve kinda figured out the trick to doing those videos, it’s pretty easy for me to knock out.
I actually don’t know which one will be quieter. At this point it’s been 3+ months since I touched a Hammer, and the sound conditions were vastly different from the KICKR (in terms of environment). Also, I get the impression there’s been some Hammer internal changes too. So, I’d say any past judgements should be taken with a grain of salt until we see something.
Any news on a newer or updated Wahoo SNAP? I’m holding off this upcoming cold season until these shoot outs happen
Thanks for the review, Ray!
Curious how nü-KICKR compares to the original KICKR on these 2 points:
“2) Increase precision: A change to the hardware will increase their accuracy claims and reduce failures
3) Improve Responsiveness: Another hardware change increases the responsiveness of the unit during massive instant leaps of power (i.e. 150w to 500w).”
Did you notice improvements in both areas? In your review of the original KICKR it tracked closely to Quarq and Stages readings, but I don’t know where to look to see if nü-KICKR is tracking even better. And whether or not responsiveness has improved between KICKRs requires a qualitative assessment that is not mentioned here.
Would like if you’d included the original KICKR in the trainer comparison section, though granted owners of the original are probably not the intended market.
Hello,
am I getting it right that there is no way of syncing the 1300€-Kickr with Garmin Connect due to restrictions by Garmin?
I downloaded the Wahoo-Fitness-App and syncing to Garmin Connect is still provided the menu but not executed sucessfully!?
Thanks for clarification!
With greetings from Germany,
arne
Hi. I try to monitor responses but there’s a lot to keep up with. Apologies if this has already been addressed.
Is there any “road feel” difference between the Tacx Neo and the KICKR2? For example, do they feel any different when resistance is increased/decreased during intervals? Or in the feedback you get when you’re “letting off the gas” or “keeping the pressure on”? If apps and “feel” are my deciding criteria (not noise, not precision, not price) is there a big difference between the Neo and the KICKR.
Thanks.
Ray,
How did the NP compare for your interval sessions between the quarq, P1, and Kickr? Specifically in the 30×30 session. Another user in the wattage forum saw significantly less output from what the kickr was reporting to TR when monitoring with a P2M (251 NP vs 233 NP). See thread here: link to groups.google.com
Would be interesting if the firmware update you have mentioned would report closer to actual values like you observed when riding in zwift.
nevermind, found the detailed data that you linked….
Yup. Also see the comments inline the post on a few things.
And just for clarity on others, the linked to Wattage discussion is for the older KICKR.
Actually that data/thread is from a “New” Kickr. I got it off CC before they took the page down.
Gotchya. Missed that on my phone.
So, in re-reading that, I think it may have been TR + the older protocol being your cause. I’d try BT, or, triple-check it’s connecting on FE-C on ANT+ instead of the old ANT protocol on KICKR.
My workout shown above sounds pretty similar to yours. You can see that wandering when TR was having connection issues on older protocol, and they saw that in the logs. This is likely caused by WiFi/etc…, whereas FE-C and BT are better (with BT being best as it channel hops).
Shoot me a note if you want to use any of the analysis tools and I’ll get you hooked up. You’ll just need to be able to do concurrent recording of your data sources (i.e. one PM attached to one head unit, another to another).
Thanks. Yeah so I was connected via BT for that workout. Was really hoping that the new model would solve these power discrepancy issues. Fingers crossed a firmware update will help.
But yeah I would be interested in comparing the Kickr/TR recording vs. P2M/810 if that is possible. Only have one Garmin.
Hit up the TR guys support. They can pull your log file and tell if what (if any) abnormalities they saw.
Hey Jeff/Ray,
Here’s Jeff’s setup for that ride on TR:
Wahoo KICKR Bluetooth Connection
Recorded KICKR power data
No dropouts
Those little dips are just him not pedaling, as shown on his other TP graph which I’m assuming is another power meter that was used during the session.
The KICKR really smooths the data out and you get those artificially smoothed lines. Then, when you stop pedaling, it kinda keeps reporting your power for a bit then drops to zero.
So what the TR ride vs the TP graph represent are the difference in power measurement between a KICKR and a P2M (which I think Jeff was asking about).
We’ve built a feature we call PowerMatch which tries to adjust for the difference between the KICKR and your power meter. One thing to realize is that once you pair a power meter your power is NOT going to be super smooth and exactly on like the KICKR reports.
Jeff’s TP graph tells the tale pretty well. Although the KICKR reports exactly perfect intervals, the first five sets of intervals on the TP side reduce in wattage.
Here’s some info about PowerMatch: link to support.trainerroad.com
Not sure I saw this asked directly or commented on but if I have the original kickr and mainly use TR app for my rides – is the kickr2 enough of an improvement to consider making the investment to upgrade.
The main improvement is a 14% reduction in noise level with change in noise tone. Unless you are unhappy with the noise level, the expenditure doesn’t seem warranted.
Here’s my full review of the 2016 KICKR: link to dcrainmaker.com
Believe Neo is much quieter than new Kickr and zwift can shake your Neo.
However, new Kickr doesn’t have the frame compatibility issue.
Furthermore, new Kickr has a handlebar and it is easier to move around.
it is hard to make the decision…
really difficult for me too the decision. Here in europe the price difference is not so high and i really don’t care about the noise level (I have a lemond revolution now, it seem like a space shuttle even at 150watt but i love the incredible road feel it brings).
what i’m looking for is the possibility to sim bike courses i need (mostly european ironmans) and to create custom workouts because i’ve a coach and i only need to build what he ask me ( such as 3 hill ad 10% for example) so i don’t need TR programs or similar ones.
Ray i hope i can use a kickr or a neo as i use a lemond revolution…as a ‘plain simulator’ in short words.
Downhill simulator?
No, not in the KICKR.
I just want make sure I understand the definition of direct drive. Although all of them are of the wheel-off design, between the KICKR, the Hammer and the Neo, only the Hammer and the Neo would be considered direct drive. Is that correct?
The generally accepted industry term for direct drive is basically anything without a wheel on the bike.
There is a tiny handful of people that want that to mean something more strict, but realistically all but the NEO have some level of belt system within them.
Thanks for the review. I was planning to get a Kickr Snap in a few weeks, but reading comments about power inaccuracies, the hassle of having to do a spin down 10 minutes into each ride, and the availability of an updated Kickr, would you recommend I go for the new Kickr instead?
I had the same question. I really wanted the Kickr Snap too but can’t justify $500 more for the Kickr2. To me, that’s significant. The real question is, does the supposed PM reading really make a big difference in training? I mean, is the SNAP that inaccurate or is this just becoming an Internet rumor. Reading DCRs review, I thought it tracked reasonably accurately. Also, I didn’t get the impression one needs to do the spimdown before every ride . Guess I’m just thoroughly confused. Can anyone clarify?
I see a 5-8 watt difference to my P1’s. The real difference is speed measurement that my bike computer sees (real speed) vs Kickr snap. I have not tracked that down. Look up Chris Benten on Strava. I post both Wahoo and what the Garmin sees.
Sorry, what Zwift puts out vs. garmin. In Wahoo app the speed matches garmin. Something in Zwift setup I have not figured out.
That’s actually pretty darn solid difference between the P1’s and the KICKR.
For the speed differences, just triple-check your Garmin wheel circumference – that’d be the difference (under bike profiles).
I will check my setup but the speed difference is not consistent. Zwift is faster going downhill and slower going up. Reading is approximately the same around 20-22 mph.
I have a Neo and a Kickr. My Zwift setup is with the Neo. One thing that I have noticed (mostly in races) is that if I am in a group and I stop pedaling even for a second, I lose all sense of inertia and really have to hammer to get back on a wheel, so I always keep pressure on the pedals, even if I’m just soft pedaling. I assumed the virtual flywheel would be programmed to allow you to coast a bit without losing that inertia. I have not ridden the kickr enough on Zwift to remember if it does the same, but I think the flywheel does that inherently. Has anyone else experienced this with the Neo .
I’ve noticed the same thing in zwift with the neo, the inertia is not quite right.
How does the new Kickr look in terms of being able to accommodate a bike with 140mm disc brakes and a caliper that is on the inside of the chain stay?
I have the original Kickr and spend way too much time on it with TrainerRoad. I dealt with the noise issues the same way you suggested, just put it in a slower gear so it doesn’t turn as fast. What really torques me off about the unit is that for $1000+, they couldn’t put a damn $0.50 switch on it to turn it on and off? Sounds like they didn’t do it with this one either. Since I don’t like leaving electronics on all the time, I have it plugged into a surge protector. A nit, but one that I’m reminded of everytime I use it.
Ray – would you recommend the new Kickr over the Elite Drivo?
Hi Ray, I picked up the new KICKR from CT recently. Thanks for the discount! Well, not a technically a discount; “rebate points” would probably be more accurate. But definitely thanks!
In any event, have you noticed that wattage tends to drift downwards as the KICKR warms up, just like rolling resistance drops as a roller-based trainer (e.g. a Computrainer) warms up? I rode a test workout this weekend comparing wattage reported from my Power2Max Type-S power meter against power reported from my Wahoo KICKR as I was riding an easy set of short test intervals in PerfPro Studio (I wanted to keep the effort relatively easy so I could keep my cadence and pedal stroke even between efforts). This was starting from a totally cold trainer. On all of the intervals, the KICKR reported dead even watts, maybe fluctuating by a watt here and there. The Power2Max fluctuated a lot– as all regular power meters do– the image attached is smoothed to 20 seconds. My P2M always reports a little on the high side. But what concerns me is how the P2M line is getting closer between sets to the KICKR line. In fact, the average of my P2M data over the first interval is 235 watts while the average over the third interval is 226 watts. After this interval set, I kept riding and experimenting. I eventually shut down my PC and just let my ELEMNT control my KICKR. When I rode the exact same interval set, my P2M reported an average of 222 watts (image of ELEMNT-controlled ride not shown). So that’s a drop of 13 watts (about 6%) over the course of about 30 minutes— well outside the claimed error tolerances of both Power2Max and the KICKR as far as I can tell.
Fortunately, PerfPro allows the power meter to control the trainer, which may be my workaround. But I was still hoping that watts would be more consistent between devices than this experience demonstrates.
Interesting, I haven’t seen any drift like that. I can’t remember off-hand, but it would be interesting to grab the zero offset values from the P2M before and after the ride – as that would narrow down which of the two are actually drifting. 🙂
Yes perform a roll down at startup and after 15 minutes or so of warm up and check temp/offset values
Well, it did feel a bit harder at the beginning than at the end, so I’m hoping that it was the KICKR that drifted. 😉 I didn’t go into the test with the expectation that there was going be a drift so I didn’t record my zero offset before and after. I’ll take a look at that next time I do a comparison ride.
As far as the KICKR is concerned, I thought that a spin down calibration was only required every 2 weeks or so or after the unit has been moved? I hope using the “new and improved” version of the KICKR doesn’t mean that I have to treat it like my 15 year old Computrainer and do a spin down every time I ride it after I’ve warmed up. Certainly, the product documentation didn’t tell me that.
I’m quite distrustful of the power reading off the KICKR until someone can convince me otherwise. First, the elimination of strain gauges is a big concern. What did they replace them with to actually MEASURE watts? Second, the reported data is just a little too even for my comfort level. There are huge wattage differences at different points of the cadence cycle and the fact that I get such perfectly smooth watts raises a huge red flag for me. I was hoping that this would be addressed in the firmware update, which hasn’t yet appeared. Now with the potential power drift, I’m even more concerned.
it is what scares me. I don’t have a PM on the bike so when i read issues like the one happend to Ken the first thing i think is that if it’s happened to me I would not have noticed anything with a lot of wasted time on my kickr.
that’s why i’m waiting for the tacx neo indeep review from ray.
Just to clarify – did you do any calibration/roll-down?
Wahoo still recommends it for the most accuracy. Things like temperature variances being a bigger impact.
As for elimination of the strain gauages, I recorded a big-long thing with Chip about it before I left Eurobike. But as it seems anytime I record any audio with Chip, he has some wonky forcefield that just hoses up any audio sessions I do with him. I may put up the clunky audio version here in the comments for those curious, and then re-record it next week at Interbike. But he goes into great detail on why the new method is better, and how they’re actually looking to roll it back to V1 KICKR’s as well to improve accuracy there.
For it looking too smooth, I talk about that up above in the post with TrainerRoad and the change they’re (Wahoo) going to make to make it look right. It’s a minor firmware tweak on how they handle in ERG mode what they broadcast.
Yup. I did a spin down calibration of the KICKR right after I set it up. I used the Wahoo app and it did seem to hang a few times but eventually it succeeded.
I’m hoping this is just a minor hiccup that comes with any new product. It would be really interesting to know how eliminating strain gauges resulted in a more accurate product. I’m hoping it’s not just a cost-saving move and really is more accurate. Can’t wait for the firmware update!
Thanks Ray!
Ken,
Spin down should not be necessary with every ride. I would only be concerned about a rolldown if you notice your offset drifting with increasing temperature, thats why I would check at different points just once during a workout.
As for it feeling easier at the end of an interval 2 things. 1) What gear and or what speed are you using erg mode in? I posted data above from a different user who saw such drift, but he was running 53-11 and the resistance unit couldn’t keep up at those speeds. I can post a link to the data but when switching to a more reasonable gearing his NP between a PM and the kickr were within a watt of each other. 2) What is your HR telling you? Is it drifting downward on such intervals or are these really short intervals?? I find my HR tracks remarkably to changes in wattage on the new kickr. It does feel that changes in cadence can take the resistance unit a second or two to equilibrate.
Thanks Jeff! I wasn’t pushing anything nearly as large as a 53×11. I’m not one of those guys who pushes their trainers at 35+ mph to make their trainers smooth out their efforts. We all know folks who do that, right? ;-). The first interval could have hurt more just because, well frankly, it was the first interval. I wasn’t warmed up (I noted that the trainer was cold when I started) so everything hurt. I get that a trainer that relies on tire pressure needs a spin down with every workout because roller pressure is going to vary every time the bike is inserted or removed. But I wouldn’t expect a slight temperature change of about 5 degrees to make a 6% difference in a direct drive trainer– especially when that bike hadn’t moved since I did a spin down the day before. As a side note, your reply gave me an uh-oh moment when you mentioned that the KICKR’s resistance unit couldn’t keep up with the high speeds associated with another rider’s 53×11 gearing. I’m not sure that’s what you meant, unless this guy was super human; a KICKR should be able to generate accurate resistance within the speeds that us mere mortals can ride. On the other hand, I could imagine that measuring power off a system with a heavy flywheel spinning ridiculously fast could introduce drift when compared to another power meter much further “upstream” (such as a pedal based PM) that is moving much more slowly. Thanks also for the tip about heart rate. As this was an effort to test to KICKR and not to test me, I wasn’t wearing an HRM. I’m a touch leery about putting much faith on HR indoors, though, because MY temperature during indoor workouts fluctuates enormously and definitely tends to drift. Unfortunately I don’t think it would advisable for me to do a spin down calibration of that. 😉
Yes you are correct, now that I see your data, the problem is different for a user in such big gearing. It was the latter, they observed drift (actual power drifting lower) WITHIN an interval as measured upstream (crank) of the crazy fast spinning flywheel, not drift between repeated efforts.
FWIW here is a 5×5 I did last week on the new kickr. Power vs HR were very consistent for the first 4 intervals, ignore the last interval where I increased the wattage. When working out indoors I use a really big arse fan, hydrate well, and ride shirtless. Also most efforts are less than 90 minutes. As such (within said time frame) I generally observe very little aerobic decoupling with repeat efforts, neither it seems with my new kickr nor did it seem to happen with my old trainer (using a powertap and an on wheel trainer)
“New” kickr just arrived from the big brown truck, bought direct from Wahoo. There is side-to-side play/wobble in the main shaft that my 1st gen does not have, doesn’t seem right. The securing bolt seems tight. Can anyone tell me if this is normal? A quick YouTube video here: link to youtu.be
securing bolt as in for selecting wheel size??? that amount of play does not seem normal, I do not observe such play on my unit
The hand bolt/knob which secures the wheel size is tight yes. The play mostly comes from the back of the unit where the (flex arm?) meets the base. There is a bolt there which is tight as well. My “original” kickr has no such play whatsoever. I agree, I’m thinking this is not normal.
Correct. Not normal as long as that bolt is secured. Looks like something got damaged in shipping.
“What’s really interesting here is that the KICKR is simply broadcasting the target power, and not the actual power.” I don’t think this is interesting at all – reporting target power instead of real power is basically cheating! Even if they change it with the software update, since they don’t have built in powermeter even their reported “real” power values will be also rough (ideally +/-2%) estimates that are dependent on the effectiveness of their temperature compensation algorithms and assume that trainer works exactly as ideally intended by the factory. Any play in bearings due to wear or some other small imperfection will distort these “real” power values and Kickr power will be way off I guess. You can see such worrying results already reported even in comments above. So as I understand, the Elite Divo beats the new Kickr hands down except the looks. Kickr looks really cool as Divo resembles some ugly vacuum cleaner or something. Until Kickr doesn’t include real error prone powermeter as Divo does they are not even in the same league. Ray seems to have some soft spot towards Kickr that’s why it didn’t get devastating review I guess.
I always like when folks literally make things up along the way, this being a prime example of it.
A) It currently does this *reporting* of power in ERG mode, which Wahoo has already stated they’ll change. That was my concern, and hence why I used the word ‘interesting’, which is often used in a variety of contexts. Of course, the underlying controlled power is accurate, as shown in those graphs. You’re skipping over that really important fact.
B) What bearings specifically are you referring to? This is where I insert the ‘you have no idea what you’re talking about’ card.
C) As noted above, I’ve got a detailed KICKR Power Meter Strain Gauge Q&A with Chip that I shot at Eurobike that I wanted to post. But the audio is mostly hosed up, so I’m just going to re-shoot it at Eurobike, but I’ll still try and put together something to link to here temporarily until then, as bad as the audio may be.
D) In general, I find it more useful to talk to the engineers that actually built the products about the technologies that are inside them, than folks that go around saying the bearings are going to wear down and cause accuracy issues…when…ummm..yeah, bearings.
Sorry, if my comment above was not on the “bright side” :). By “bearings wear” I actually meant any moving mechanical part Kickr has. Anyway maybe it helps stupid me to understand the whole issue if somebody simply explains how exactly the new Kickr measures or estimates the power.
Here’s the video I shot from Eurobike with Chip from Wahoo Fitness discussing everything you ever wanted to know about the strain gauge in the KICKR (and lack thereof in KICKR2).
HOWEVER, be warned again that the audio is horrible (at least by my standards). It’s perfectly listenable and easy to understand 99.9% of the words spoken, but the mics were doing something weird.
Unlisted video here: link to youtube.com
Thanks for the video, Ray! Very helpful and enlightening. I don’t doubt Chip’s reasoning and Wahoo’s idea that the new KICKR is super accurate. Also, he makes a great point about how power spikes after an acceleration and so the brake shouldn’t oscillate after big power jumps to accommodate that (that happened all the time on my old Computrainer). Plus, his points about the differences between outdoor and indoor riding make sense. Well, to a point… At the end of the day, most of us ride outdoors with strain gauge based power meter and so we expect our trainers to report wattage like a strain gauge based power meter. I’m also still getting weird differences in my data (now my Power2Max is reading 10w lower than my KICKR when it was just the opposite less than a week ago). Is it the KICKR, my Power2Max, or just the difference between a strain gauge system versus a system that uses a well-modeled brake? Who knows? Or I could be one of those two or three units that come back in a typical week for them. Otherwise, it’s a great unit and I’m super glad I have it. I do wish, however, that it was a few months from now and that I have all the firmware updates that Wahoo is implementing.
I am seeing the same thing – previously Kickr was reading high relative to my P2M, now it’s reading 10-15 watts lower than my P2M. If this was consistent I wouldn’t care so much but it’s concerning that sometimes it’s high and sometimes it’s low. Will do a workout tonight and post results.
Well, that does it for me! I hoped that new Kickr will finally resolve power accuracy issues my old one always had but apparently not. The Kickr was a great trainer some years ago and we must credit it as Wahoo started that all open connection protocol training software connection thing. But now the market has much better alternatives. I deffinitely will upgrade to Elite Drivo so I don’t need to swap my P2M powermer any more between the old trainer bike and my main racing bike to control the trainer with trainer relay. I guess Kickr is still fine to someone casually training but for anybody seriously doing power based training the lack of accuracy and drifting power values are not acceptable at all.
Keith when you say 10-15 watts lower is that NP at the end of the workout or just during certain intervals/wattage ranges?
Both. I did Geiger (sweet spot workout) last night. Had to dial intensity on TR down to hit targets. TR/Kickr gave NP of 217. P2M recording on 810 gave me NP of 231. Inverse of what I experienced previously, though that was a different wattage range. (See post 79) I did a spindown after a workout per Wahoo support a couple of days ago, could be related to that.
Just again as a reminder on power meter comparisons & troubleshooting – it’s incredibly helpful to record the zero offset values at three points:
1) Start
2) 10 minutes in
3) Finish
Haha… it’s funny Fritz that I’m wondering just the opposite this morning. Just how accurate is my Power2Max when it comes to temperature variations? Who knows? It may we’ll be that the KICKR is the far more accurate technology when it comes to implementing a load on a trainer– or maybe not. Or is this just inevitable when comparing a calibrated brake against a strain gauge? Or will this all change when the firmware upgrade that Chip mentioned comes around? Should be an interesting few months as this all shakes out with Wahoo.
What I’ve learned with power meter testing over the years is that they are far more variable than people realize. One day one will be slightly higher than another, the next day inverted. Very often very little reason or rhyme. It’s something that you don’t really notice until you’ve done a crapton of power meter data collection with 3 or more units to start really seeing the pattern of lack of patterns.
Hard to know without more controlled testing, perhaps with multiple units and power meters we could find out, but I totally agree with you Ken. Even then I think you need something even more concrete than one against the other, such as comparison to a high precision dynamometer. I’m not saying the Kickr is necessarily free of imperfection, but all we truly have at this point is anecdotal evidence.
and +1 to ray, one power meter can’t be treated as a perfectly accurate gold standard
Totally agree. Sometimes I fall in the trap of expecting perfectly reliability between power meters but after comparing power meters, I know that isn’t true. The new KICKR puts this issue under a magnifying glass because of their change from a strain gauge to a calibrated brake. My gut feeling is that the latter approach might be the right one after all. But, we’ll see. Maybe the inconsistencies between power meters might be a great blog post in the future for Ray as it may defuse the perfect reliability that some readers expect from these products.
Long story short, main differences between Kickr1 & Kickr2:
1. New handle.
2. No built-in real powermeter any more.
3. In Erg mode broadcasts only target power that you have set in Traineroad and know anyway.
Did I miss something?
I bulleted the five changes in the first two paragraphs. 😉
#3 on your list below is changing in an upcoming firmware update.
#2 on your list doesn’t really matter, as long as the unit is still accurate.
Hi Ray,
I am not using eletronic trainers but am thinking on getting the kickr. I am already a zwift user and use it with my quarq. If I use it with the kickr, will I have to do any sort of programming with garmin or the wahoo head unit or it will be just setting the training with intervals and goal watts on zwift? Thanks. It might be a dumb question…
Nope, just simply search in Zwift for your trainer instead, it takes only a few seconds. Same goes with either the Wahoo head unit. Super easy.
Thanks for this great review ! It motivated me to replace my old-dusty Elite trainer. Smart training is fascinating. ERG mode paired with TrainerRoad app is something any cyclist who want to access to the “next level” should experience.
Did not have time to compare accuracy of the Kickr with my PowerTap pedals. Will have a look this coming week-end.
But one of the great thing to mention is how super-quiet the Kickr is ! With ERG mode, you can almost stay on 34×21 all the time, the trainer will adapt resistance automatically. Don’t foget that the lower gear you’ll use, the quieter your trainer will be. Forget about the speed (and distance), just focus on power.
Both the old and the new Kickr can be made quieter by carefully adjusting the belt tightness through the spindown time. ( This can be found online in a Wahoo Fitness Youtube video – 2 simple adjustments.) Contrary to some online sources, the correct spin-down time should be about 23 seconds, not 15. I verified this with the good people at Wahoo Fitness. A shorter spindown time means the belt is tighter. As it tightens it puts more tension on the spinning parts inside, creating more noise. There is a happy medium where the belt will not slip but moves smoothly and as quietly as possible. Yes, the new Kickr is quieter than the old – noticeably so, but both benefit from proper adjustment to further reduce noise. My new Kickr arrived from Wahoo with a spindown time of 19 seconds but I made it even quieter by changing the time to 23 seconds. Don’t be afraid to experiment and tweak this adjustment a bit.
Great info. I only just realised that the spindown time on mine (42 seconds!) was way too high. After logging a support case with Wahoo, I was told to tighten the belt as per the video.
I’ve since done this, and my spindown time is down to 30 seconds. A massive improvement, but still need to knock another 7 seconds of that. However, I’m a little worried about tightening the belt much more — there’s a few horror stories out there of belts snapping :\
Oh, after tightening the belt, I’ve also noticed almost a squeak/whirring sounds that chops in and out at higher flywheel speeds.
Hi DC
As ever a great review.
I am considering purchasing a 2016 second generation Wahoo Kickr for use on Zwift. Would you (or readers who use the new Kickr / Tacx Neo) mind sharing your thoughts on the following points:
1. How quick is the Kickr to respond when you sprint (in seconds) e.g. from 250 Watts to 500 / 750 / 1,000 Watts? How does the speed of response to power changes compare to the Tacx Neo when you sprint?
3. What is the free wheel like down hill on Zwift on the new Kickr? Do you find yourself getting dropped or having to put down power to stay with a group while they free wheel? How does it compare to the Tacx Neo?
Thank you
I own a Kickr(original) and I don’t have any of the power problems others have had. But my trainer hardly ever moves. It’s basically at my work and I use it 2 times per week.
I have ordered a Drivo but after listening to the interview and the fact the Drivo just got pushed back to mid Oct. I’m thinking about cancelling and just getting the Kickr16(2). Problem is, after looking at actual price of all these new trainers, the Kickr is over-priced. Although the Drivo MSRP is $1,299 and the Hammer is $1,199 they are really 20% cheaper. I got pre-ordered the Drivo from Performance for $150 cheaper than I could get the Kickr because Wahoo doesn’t allow sales. I could pre-order the Hammer for $200 cheaper than the kickr. You can get the Neo for $100.00 more than the Kickr..When the Flux comes in with a MSRP of $899, the real price will be $675..Then what?
if Kickr were smarter than they already are. They would drop there prices now, I know a lot of people are waiting for all these new trainers to come out. But they are waiting….Waiting for the new NEO, waiting for the Drivo, waiting for the Hammer, waiting for the Flux…..If Wahoo dropped their price, a lot of people would stop waiting.
Performance puts the Kickrs on sale regularly and REI occasionally; both @ 20% off.
At the very least buy a kickr at full price and REI will give members 10%, and don’t forget to factor in you get a cassette included with your kickr….
Yeah, I need a home trainer now. Kickr it is. Performance gives 10% back also. They also have a crazy no questions asked guarantee policy like costco.
if you had a choice and noise was not an issue which trainer would you buy a tacx neo or the new wahoo kickr?
Has there been any word on when Wahoo will issue the software fix for the TrainerRoad erg mode? I’m looking into getting one and this seems like something that would be a major deal breaker.
I just received the 2016 today. There was a Firmware update(3.1.1) but no release notes, so I’m not sure if it was the one everyone is looking for.
I played around with it for about a hour. It’s accurate. It’s so in sync with my SRM I spent about 20 minutes fixing a problem that didn’t exist. I set up 2 riders/trainers in Perfpro one with SRM and the other w/ Kickr2016. I seriously kept updating the SRM offeset and making sure the profiles were different. The numbers were too close all the time. I thought the Kickr profile was picking up the SRM signal..At the end I had the phone app running with Perfpro for the Kickr. Garmin and another profile running for the SRM. I guess it’s like what Joe Dirt’s Dad would say,”Its just does”.They are tide together. Within a watt or 3 half the time and exactly the same the rest of the time. I was getting annoyed thinking something was wrong.
It’s very responsive. It reacts instantly to interval changes at twice the speed. I changed the Interval offset from 3sec to 1 second in Perfpro because it was hitting the intervals way faster. God forbid I do a VO2 effort 2 seconds longer than need be.
Anyways, very happy with the trainer. Right now I’m not really worried about the erg stuff. Just doesn’t seem that noticeable.Then again, I could have gotten the update.But if I didn’t, I trust it will come and It wouldn’t make the slightest difference in actual work performed.
Way easier to carry, fixed the problem with Di2 11s derailleurs topping out in 10th gear, and a tiny teeny weenie bit quieter. You actually need the other one next to it to realize it’s quieter. I couldn’t tell the difference without putting the bike on the other one and thinking..Oh, yeah, I guess it is.
+1 Heith. While I had some initial adjustment pains to the 2016 Kickr, I’m now convinced it an absolutely incredible trainer– best one I’ve ever owned. I’ve never been on a trainer that can hold such steady watts and that can adjust so quickly to changes in wattage. For instance, I could never do something like 30 seconds maxVO2 intervals effectively on other trainers because they would take at least 5 seconds to get to a steady value. Not so with the KICKR. Tonight, for instance, I did a 2 x 20min effort at a moderate wattage but some sudden jumps. The watts on my Power2Max (which is shown smoothed to 20 seconds so isn’t as “crisp” as the raw data) reacts pretty much immediately with the change in wattage. Thanks also for the tip on the PerfPro interval offset! Definitely needed for such an reactive trainer as the new KICKR.
That 2×20 using your P2M to drive the kickr or are you just monitoring with the P2M? That is some really nice looking data!
I’m still loving my kickr as well, super consistent and great feel/response time.
Looks like v3.2.0 beta is out for the KICKR 2016
“Optionally including acceleration power in Erg mode.”
I just updated with the iOS Wahoo Utility app, no password was required. Test ride to come later today.
How did you get the firmware?
Yes, please tell us how you got the beta software via the utility app.
Thanks.
Just google “wahoo secret swipe”
All the videos I’ve seen are with a previous version of the Wahoo Utility app. I am using the current version on current iOS. Not sure how to do it. Anyone done it on this setup?
Update and notes after yesterdays full workout.
Ok, there’s a break-in period with this trainer. I’ve found the Temp doesn’t matter that much because I think the new sensors take care of that pretty well. But the coast down numbers did matter with mine.
So, on day 1, I play with it and did a coast-down after initial warm-up 15.4sec@90f(32.2c) from that point on, it was spot on w/SRM. I let it cool and tested without a spin-down and it stayed spot on. I then warmed it back up, did another spindown about 1.5 hours after playing with it.19sec 38c. Still very accurate.
Day 2: I did a 1:40′ workout in erg mode with a-lot or low inertia work in the small ring. I noticed a little drift so I zeroed the SRM it went from 465 to 460 during that time..Not enough to change anything, SRM’s are pretty stable. I then did a spin-down/coast-down which came back at 24.5mph @108F, 10sec longer than original. At that point, the trainer was off.reading 15w-19w lower than SRM, making the workout a little too hard.
I also noticed the machine got much quieter than from day 1. Noticeably quieter than the original Kickr.
So I got off quickly, tension-ed the belt following the instructions from Wahoo’s youtube video I previously watched. Did a spin-down(16sec 104F) and everything was back on target.
So, with my unit after a couple days from the factory it needed a minor adjustment after it broke in. Not sure if this is normal but it seems the belt and bearing break-in a little fairly quickly. So if you have any issues, first make sure the belt tension is between 15 and 19sec.
Also should note, I thought once I tighten the belt back up it would get loud again. It didn’t seem to, so that’s good.
I’ve done several spin-downs since and they have all come back around 15.8-16.5sec so the belt hasn’t slackened since. It could have also have been a slightly loose pinch bolt..Maybe the belt never stretched at all. Either way, the belt slightly slackened after 3 hours of initial use and that cause a longer coast-down which seemed to effect wattage while temp hasn’t. Not a big deal but thought I should note here.
15-19 is the correct spindown time for the Wahoo Snap. The correct spindown for the Kickr is around 23.
I’m getting mixed info on this through-out the net. I’m in no way saying you’re not right, nor that these guys are wrong. Maybe Wahoo can chime in at some point.
link to support.zwift.com coment
link to youtube.com watch around 5:00 mark onward.
I know mine seems to work better with my PM at this range. I just used SpeedyCal android app to check my SRM and the slope is correct. avg.26.77 set 26.8
Per Wahoo support when I contacted them previously: “Typical spin down times will range from 16 to 24 seconds (for the 2016 KICKR).”
I recently spoke to a young lady at Wahoo Fitness about this particular video. She was concerned because she felt it was incorrect information.
Did she give you a spindown range or just say that the video isn’t correct? My experience with Wahoo support is that while they try to be helpful, they don’t know how their products works.
If money is not the issue, do you recommend the Neo or the new Kickr? I will be using it with a Garmin 1000 and Zwift? Thank you, in advance.
Kickr has been working great since I started using power match (auto setting). When I tried it on the old Kickr it felt like the power fluctuated wildly every 10 seconds as the Kickr adjusted but I don’t really notice that with the new Kickr. I have been doing a lot of sweet spot stuff and I am hitting intervals within a watt or two and my kJ and TSS are bang on for the workout. Haven’t done any shorter vo2max stuff with the power match on though, might not work as well for that stuff.
Keith,
Are you referring to the power match in TrainerRoad or in the Kickr configuration in the Wahoo Fitness App. I never successfully got it working from the Wahoo Fitness App.
Using TrainerRoad
There isn’t a Garmin Connect Discussion thread, so I am posting this here.
Wahoo says Garmin is preventing the upload of ride data to GC. Is this Garmin BS? Ray, can you tell Garmin how many of us are very disappointed in this unfriendly action? Why did Garmin do this? Do they really need ransom $?
They’re mostly correct. I’m not sure what 3rd party apps are still faking uploads, I’m sure some, as I’m sure it’s still technically possible. But Garmin has continued to clamp down on it. And it’s actually not the $5K fee thing. They just don’t have an API for ingest of data (only export).
Previously, companies basically faked being a user to upload data (my guess is some still do).
thanks. So no workaround…Wahoo mentioned to me to upload to GC from Strava…
I currently move data from GC to Strava. Do I have to enable connecting to GC from within Strava now?
Have had the new Kickr for a couple of weeks now and seem to have an issue with power readings relative to those from my Stages PM. The Kickr is giving readings around 20% lower than I have been getting on the Stages either indoor or on the road. I am not too worried which is more accurate but at the moment I have no comparable data from the two and will need to use a lower FTP on the kickr (200 as opposed to 240 on the stages) which is not ideal. I have done a number of spin downs with the time coming in around 15s which seems a bit low according to advice on here and I guess that might be the problem. Am using either the Wahoo app or Zwift and getting the same readings. Any help appreciated, am currently busting myself to put out what kickr is saying is 250W and I know it isn’t!
Thanks
I have a Kickr 14 (old Kickr), and I have always had an offset between the Kickr and Stages power meter which gradually changes during a workout. I’m currently evaluating a beta version of firmware which calculates power without the strain gauge similar to the new Kickr, and I still have an offset, although the offset behaves differently than when using the strain gauge. I have been collecting graphs of the data and the offset is not consistent during the ride, sometimes having a jump and then having a fairly stable offset again at a different value.
The way I deal with the offset is to manually adjust the offset in TrainerRoad as I do the workout, and I feel better about that than having TrainerRoad try to automatically adjust for the offset. The control by external power meter in the Wahoo Fitness app does not appear to work for me.
My theory is that the new Kickr (and old Kickr using model based power calculation) have a fundamental problem. I think the model cannot accurately predict power across the usable temperature range among different units, and the spindown (and advanced spindown) is not enough to adjust the parameters of the model. Every unit probably needs to be calibrated across temperature to be accurate. I would not train with it without using another power meter as a reference since the offset is not stable. Perhaps other people have Kickrs that behave differently, but that is how mine works, and I complained about it since the first week I had it with the response always being that firmware will fix the problem.
Just to add a little more to my previous comment, I still think that a Kickr is a good training tool. For someone training with power an external power meter needs to be used (e.g. the same one you use outside, Stages, 4iii, SRM, etc.) since no two power meters give the same results, and the Kickr power offset does not appear to be stable during a workout.
With the beta firmware I have been using, my main issue is that it takes about 30 minutes for the Kickr to settle on an offset that seems to be fairly stable for the rest of the ride (I tried up to three hour rides, and I always see the first ~30 minutes with a different offset). Without looking at the external power meter data, I would be training in the wrong zone without knowing it. Since I use a power meter on the bicycle outside, I need to see the same data reference indoors too and not rely on the Kickr (or whatever other smart trainer I would use).
I just bought the New Kickr and it is reading watts much lower than I think it should. I did an easy TR program and compared heart rate and PE to prior workouts on this TR session. HR was 20 bpm average higher and PE was much higher. If I base a new FTP off this resistance I will be in the “basement” for the new FTP. Apparently this isn’t uncommon. See this thread link to forum.slowtwitch.com
I will contact Wahoo tomorrow and see what can be done to get to a reasonable level of resistance. I don’t care about precise power accuracy but somewhere in a reasonable ballpark and consistency.
The best way to deal with this is to use an on the bicycle power meter as the power reference and adjust the Kickr offset as needed to meet your training targets. So, for your FTP test, the Kickr can be in Level mode and you will get the power information from your power meter which will be good for both inside and outside rides.
I’m still struggling with different offsets from different spindowns, and even from different days without redoing a spindown. Since I use an on the bicycle power meter, it doesn’t matter so much, other than adjusting the offset. Also, I usually need to adjust the offset within a ride.
I’m assuming that this will get better with each firmware release, but as you probably know from the V1 Kickr, it was never resolved.
I stumbled across this from another website where people were complaining of the same problem. I have a brand new Kickr Snap with the same problems. As per advice from Wahoo I deleted and reinstalled the apps, turned everything off and started again. After Spindown I sat on the bike and span for ten minutes watching the power reading. At a steady 27kph the power reading bounced all over the place between 105 and 140w.
Then I switched to ERG mode and set it to 140w. this felt more like 250w. I ramped up the resistance 10watts at a time, by the time I got to 180watts, it was unrideable. I couldn’t even stand on the cranks and get them to turn.
There is clearly a problem with the sensor in the unit. The guy in this Youtube video explains how he worked out the issue and how he fixed it.
link to youtube.com
I won’t be doing that. Mine will be going back to the shop.
Hi Ray – am expecting to have my new Kickr delivered tonight, but am a little confused as to whether it will work with Trainer road without an Ant+ dongle (which I forgot to order). I have a pretty new Windows laptop with Bluetooth 4.2, but the TR and Wahoo support sites seem to suggest I’ll need the dongle as well. Any ideas? Thanks!
I use an ANT+ stick, so I don’t know. TrainerRoad support is one of the best. E-mail their support team, support@trainerroad.com, and they will probably respond quickly.
We don’t support native BT on the PC (yet), so you’ll need an ANT stick.
But…if you have an iPhone or Android phone with BT 4.0 (if you’ve bought them in the last few years it will have it) you can control it without a dongle!
Just search for “TrainerRoad” in the App Store or Google Play Store :).
I’ve downloaded the beta and did 30sec intervals to test it. There is no smoothing and i did not do a calibration. I offset the Srm but I did not calibrate trainer its been just the way it is for 3 weeks now. Well with the exception of the new beta firmware. Purple is trainer. You can see its very reactive to fast jumps in power.
I should also not the first few I was 53t/16t. Then I went to 39/19 to see if a lower inertia would change things. The last 3 I went back to 53t. I also sprinted harder in the middle. I didn’t use smoothing because they were really short. Also to note the trainer reacts better than the SRM. If I put a little extra power down,just a quick jolt. The trainer reads it instantly while the srm barely notices. It makes for jumpy numbers and on longer intervals I’d definitely use at least 10sec smoothing
Oh, I might as well give you the original Kickr with 5sec smoothing. Same SRM but I had smoothing on. You can see the original is still quite good. I did do a spindown before this ride but rarely do on this trainer either.
Just a follow up, I have updated from the kickr 1 to the kickr 2, everything is working fine except my garmin 810 now wont pick up the new kickr as a speed sensor to record some kind of distance whilst recording on my garmin. Has anyone else had this issue or know a fix?
Just upgraded myself. The Kickr2 appears to transmits speed within the power stream, so if you’ve got the Garmin paired to the ANT+ power it should give you speed/distance. Works fine on my old Garmin 800 when selecting no Speed/Cadence in the Kickr2 bike profile I have set up.
Apparently the speed use the same ANT+ channel as power. I believe a firmware update for the original Kickr allowed a separate broadcast signal for speed?
I’m a bit disappointed by this, as I cannot broadcast speed (and thus distance) to my Vivoactive HR, as it won’t connect to power meters. It’s a bit frustrating to see an older video of Ray’s where he connects speed from the Tacx Vortex Smart to the original Vivoactive — a mid-range smart trainer which is less than half the price of what I paid for the Kickr2 here in Australia.
Anyway, I contacted Wahoo about this — and this was their response:
“Unfortunately at this time we are only broadcasting the Speed and Power data through one channel as they are calculated together with the our power model. I can certain pass this along to our developers and project managers to evaluate. Please let us know if you have any additional questions.”
I know speed isn’t a great metric, but it is a bit frustrating not having a complete activity recorded in Garmin (and on my watch) without having to push the FIT files from Zwift to Garmin Connect..
Just to clarify – the KICKR has never transmitted speed by itself, only as part of the power channel.
That said, the way Tacx does it here really is the best overall option – for exactly the use case you noted.
Thanks for the clarification!
I thought I recalled you mentioning here on the original Kickr article the possibility of a firmware update to broadcast speed separately.
If I were to purchase a Fenix 5 when released, would it allow the capture and recording of speed data on the power channel?
Yes, totally compatible with the Fenix5.
I just got my new Kickr and I’m a bit disappointed. Using power match with my Quarq in TrainerRoad It takes around 30 seconds to “ramp up” to target power when I start an interval- What gives? I updated the firmware and everything.
Try using the power offset instead of power match. By using the power match you’re adding a control loop. The kickr16 is very fast at erg mode if you let it do the work. Also from what I’ve seen, it’s more reactive to changes in power than my power meters. Offset just works better, faster, smoother.
How can I determine the power offset between my quarq and the kickr?
You could record a workout on two separate devices, and see what the offset is across different power meter levels.
Generally speaking power match was aimed at trying to close a larger gap between a power meter and a trainer. If you don’t see an offset of any significance (more than a couple of percent), I wouldn’t really worry about power match – as all it’s really going to do is make a worse experiance.
Hi Ray, just want to say a massive thanks for your review. Just bought my new Wahoo today and it’s working pretty well except the belt (or the belt plate) makes some weird clicking noise – some guys on youtube also have the same problem and I am just keen to find out if this is normal? Thanks!
link to youtube.com
Odd, doesn’t sound normal to me. I’d hit up Wahoo support and shoot them that link.
I just tried out my kickr2 for the first time this morning. It’s a lot louder than it seems on Ray’s video, so I packed it up for return. Tacx Neo on the way!
I am on my second kick2. I had an original kickr since new and these units seem to generate a squeal that sounds like metal rubbing. It seems to be coming from where the sensor lives. Its odd that two have the same issue so it may be something else. I have logged a support ticket.
The sound file is here link to dl.dropboxusercontent.com
I would be useful to know if this sounds normal or not. Any ideas on what the issue me are welcome.
Sounds like a tight belt. Check the spindown time. Should be around 23-25 seconds. Adjust accordingly and recheck the sound again.
Both trainers have slow down a lot quicker than the old kicker. I would say 15 sec. can you suggest pointers to where you adjust the belt and if this is something that can be done without voiding the warrenty. Thx
David – 15 seconds is too brief a spindown, confirming a tight belt. Adjusting the belt does not void any warranty and instructions can be found easily on Youtube. Aim for 23-24 seconds.
David,
The Wahoo Fitness App has a spindown function that will tell you the spindown time. From your posting “I would say 15 sec.”, it appears that you didn’t use the app to spindown function in the app.
Hi – as follow up the squeal on the kick2, I had this back from Wahoo support. Looks like a manufacturing fault:
Ian Evans (Wahoo Fitness Support)
Oct 26, 2:29 PM EDT
Hi David,
I am terribly sorry about that. We have been getting several reports of this and we believe they are all from the same production run. With that being said, we are going to personally swap out your KICKR. We will need to get a courier scheduled to pick it up. What address will they be picking it up from? Additionally, what is a good phone number we can list on the order? Lastly, can you please send me your serial number?
Thanks,
Ian
Ray I noticed in your zwift setup that you select the kickr as your power source instead of your stages power meter and you connected via Bluetooth instead of ant+. Is there any reason you wouldn’t want to use your power meter as the power source instead of the kickr in zwift? Also my new kickr seems to transmit two signals for ant+ one that says “wahoo….” and the other that says “wahoo…FEC”. What are your thoughts on optimal configuration with the new kickr and separate power meter on zwift?
Thank you!!!
If on the iPad app, you have to connect via BT. If on desktop, I virtually always connect via ANT+.
For me, I always use the FE-C signal (on desktop), because it’s directly controlling the trainer. Versus if I set it to the power meter, then it’s not going to control the trainer (read-only).
Thanks Ray!
So let me recap (I’m not tech savvy). I’ll be using the ZWIFT desktop app and will configure the new kickr this way:
Controllable trainer – Wahoo Kickr FEC
Cadence – Power meter (stages/quarq)
Power source – This is where I’m confused. Do I use the Wahoo Kickr FEC OR can I use my power meter (stages/quarq)? Both come up as options. Would it be more “accurate” to have the external power meter as the source and let the Kickr control the resistance?
I appreciate any help you can provide on the optimal configuration. Thanks again Ray!
Does anyone know the beginning serial number which doesn’t have the production flaw, or the serial numbers to avoid, as commented on by Ian from Wahoo?
Don’t own a Kickr, but was taking part in a study recently using Kickrs…not the new ones, I believe.
Question is this: has anyone run into a problem of belts snapping under use? I was not the most powerful of guys in this study, but I had *two* kickr belts break under me during the study. One in the middle of the workout, an increasing wattage ‘go till failure’ workout, and the second one after the workout was done when I was trying to get it spinning again. Still some tension on the belt, but I was not stomping all-out to try to get it moving. Just applying steady pressure.
Anyone have any similar experiences?
Weird. I think I’ve only heard of one belt snapping ever in all the years.
Almost wonder if someone was tweaking tension on the belt for the study, and did something they shouldn’t have (given you had two break).
Interesting. I don’t know how they were setting up the machines mechanically. The study started you off at 1 watt/kg, and then increased the wattage linearly based on your weight. You just cycled till failure, which was defined as not meeting the goal wattage by a certain amount (so if you were still spinning but well below the target wattage, you were done).
The first belt snapped when I was in the mid 300 watts. There were Cat1 and 2 guys in this study, pushing a lot more wattage than me. That one snapped in the middle of the study, while I was around 90 rpm or so–started hearing a ticking sound at first, got louder and I could feel it through the bike, and as one of the guys went to see what it was (thought maybe it was an indexing problem with the derailler), snap.
Second time, I had finished the study, gone till failure, and then wanted to get spinning again for recovery. The trainer was still up in the 300s, and I was applying steady pressure trying to get it moving from a stop. That one just snapped all at once.
As far as I knew, they weren’t tweaking the Kickrs themselves at all, just running a specific program. But I don’t know. Yeah, I was the only one who had the belt break–they had other problems with bluetooth HR interference between the two units they had, but the belt breaking was all for me :/ I took away a pretty poor opinion of the Kickr from that study (only time I’ve used one, they’re too rich for my blood :)) but maybe that’s an unfair opinion to have if my experience is a non-standard deviant.
Thanks 🙂
Yeah, all those problems just don’t really sound normal to me. Like BT HR interference, virtually never hear of that (sometimes ANT+ interference, but I can’t remember ever seeing BT interference on the HR side).
Hi
I am new to the world of smart trainers and the associated apps out there. Wondering if there is some basic help / guidance on this:
New version of the wahoo Kikr
iPad Air latest iOS
Sufferfest app
During the videos my wahoo kikr and cadence sensor seem to disconnect from the app
I don’t seem to have this issue with the wahoo app
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
I just set up my Kickr2 today with the Wahoo Utility app, which did a firmware update before I did a spin-down. I also had disconnects with the Sufferfest app – running fine for 10min then no connection. I switched to Trainer Road which ran fine for 60min. I’ll try Sufferfest again but needed a workout, not an IT problem solving session.
Is there an app-controlled, variable speed fan to provide ‘simulated wind’ matching road speed? A key component to developing power is dissipation of heat (as we know skelentail muscle is extremely inefficient = heat production). I’m new to the bicycle trainer arena and haven’t noticed any mention body heat dissipation by convection. Thanks!
I’ve been wondering the same thing. Some company could make a killing this coming year putting out a reasonably priced ANT FE-C controlled fan!
I thought of using a Raspberri pi with the dongle and some fans to try and build the same thing. Ended up being more complicated that I had intended and gave up. Family, work, bike, doesn’t leave time enough to tinker.
I just ordered a Kickr 2 from clever training and the VIP membership. Strangely, I had compatibility issues with my frame. I have a Cannondale Supersix, 2012 edition, and it has 130mm dropout spacing and works with the original Kickr. I find it hard to believe that it doesn’t work, as this is a fairly normal bike, but they have told me to ship it back.
Frankly, after looking at the proximity of the arm to the “130/135” adapter, I find it hard to believe this works with any bikes at all.
Anyone else have this problem?
Thanks!
Mac Brown
Mac Brown,
It almost looks like the Kickr is set up for a smaller wheel size. Are you sure it is set up for 700C?
Good question- I seem to be set for 700C, so that can’t be it.
I’ve taken pic of mine with 130mm 2016 Supersix. Hope it helps.
Thanks! That’s very helpful.
I am hoping Santa delivers a kickr for christmas. I noticed the latest one was on sale, but they are out of stock and offereing alternatives…..which kickr do i want? I am going nuts trying to compare. Help me please.
Thanks so much
Hi Ray,
Din´t you have issues with gears skipping/shifting with KICKR cassette?
Have an 11sp ultegra groupset on my bike, bought a brand new KICKR (3 uses only), and couldn´t find a way for gears to shift smooth on KICKR, even though in my bike are perfect. The issue is that the gears needs some barrel indexing on the KICKR, but afterwards, need to re-adjust when mounting on bike, and indexing on the KICKR it´s not easy stuff, it´s annoying.
Read in some forums people replacing kickr cassette with the ones as they have on their bikes for better shifting, but I´m not sure about that. I´m thinking to take my Bike/Kickr to LBS so they adjust both properly, even though didn´t wanted to get to that point.
Any experiences or thoughts on issue are welcomed,
Cheers!
Hi Ray and al.,
After reading another very insightful product review here, I am a little bit thorn since I can get a Kickr1 2015-2016 on sale at $400 (CAN Dollar) off the retail price of a Kickr2 2016-2017 at a local bike shop.
I already have an independant power meter but I am really looking forward to the ERG mode.
I could live with the high level of noise since I wear headphones, although the high frequency sound maybe annoying in the long term for the family while I am in the basement pedaling. Based on Ray’s test, it may be less annoying with Kickr2.
Otherwise, the power accuracy and possible reliability issues in this regard mentioned here and on other forums for Kickr1 maybe another yellow flag compare to the new one. Again, Ray’s assessement seems to answer these claims and some friends who own one told me they have not experienced any of these problems yet.
Given this good deal and the aforementioned feedback I got, I am really leaning toward the Kickr1. Am I forgetting something about other things/issues that would make the Kickr2 a better option for the long terme (couple of years)? I may be also able to get this one with an online $170 rebate (CAN).
Any thoughts on this?
Many thanks! 🙂
Is the Flux quieter than the new Kickr would you say?
It sounded like it might be on the show-floor, but the show floor is incredibly tough to judge. Until I have a final unit in my hands, I can’t really say either way.
Hi Ray,
Bit late to party. Could you sometime dig into what exactly ‘incline mode’ means? Exactly what are the limitations to it? 15% and 2000w sounds terrific but watts (joules/second) sounds like the wrong sort of measurement to generally characterize climbing forces.
An example: I have a mtb ride I do (in the summer!) that starts with 2700 foot gravel road climb. The first 3 miles average 15 degrees but spots are 20. I ride it on my singlespeed. Because I’m old and fat my cadence is sometimes down to 10 rpm. I’m 200lb and averaging 270 watts but peak will be much higher. Can this thing simulate that load? This seems like a simple question but don’t see specs anywhere that hint at an answer.
Did the update to power reporting in ERG mode (e.g. broadcasting target power, not actual power) ever make it into the KICKR firmware?
I just purchased a kickr 2. Something is not right. I had originally paired it with my Elemnt however it seems to lose connection with the elemnt constantly so I paired it to my phone (turning the elemnt off, note phone BT was off when using the elemnt to eliminate BT issues). The phone app seems to keep connection better but am unable to control the resistance of the Kickr. No matter what mode I am in the resistance is not changing. I even set it in Resistance mode to 100% and could still easily pedal in my highest gear.
Been in contact with Kickr support but I only get one email a day with them.
Okay so after a little more debugging I noticed that anytime I sent a control command to the kickr like changing resistance level it would lose connection. Watching this happen it almost looked like it was resetting. So I looked at the power brick and noticed the green led on it was barely lit. I measured the output voltage on the power brick and it is only putting out 4.9v and it should put out 12v. So appears my issue is a bad power supply. Emailed wahoo about the findings.
Hi,
Thinking of buying this, to combine with Zwift. Have a question you maybe could answear.
If you have a power meter on your bike, like Quarq, that measure cadence and power to a paired unit like Garmin 520/1000. Do i really need a VR/Smart trainer like KICKR that measure power and cadence, to get all the benefits with Zwift controlling the resistance from what ever you are “training” on zwift? Is it possible to make Zwift read power from the Quarq and still having it to controll the KICKR. Or is it best or easiest to skip the Quarq and make KICKR do all the work.
Love your reviews! 🙂
Regards
Rene
Yes, zwift, traineroad, perfpro, etc. All allow you to use the bikes power meter to show and record data over the trainers power while the trainer is adjusting the power(erg)or slope. So your TSS scores & other metrics will be coming off your regular PM if you choose.
Thank you 🙂
I’ve spent a few weeks with the Kurt Kinetic Smart Control. Bug ridden app and still does not integrate with Zwift. I want my money back. So disappointed in Kurt Kinetic. I should have gotten the unit you are reviewing. My “Smart Control” is useless for what I needed.
I have never been able to get my Kickr to work properly in ERG mode or to be accurate with power. Wahoo says that the units use an optical reader to measure power – literally an optical sensor that reads the pattern on the flywheel (not the brake as the article states). Hard to see how this is accurate. Keep your flywheel and sensor clean!
Hi David.
You are scaring me about Kickr. Ugh. Maybe nothing works as advertised with Zwift and I just stick with my old KK fluid trainer.
I think the power calculation is easier than you might think….they know the mass and they know the velocity. Knowing that I the resistance I bet it is just a simple physics calculation. Probably a few percent off, but okay for what I’m doing.
I just am looking for some fun in Zwift, something that will get me on the bike in the winter. I can’t believe how hard the search is.
Ugh.
David
Have you ever actually tried zwift?
If you already have a kk trainer you might go ahead and buy the inride pod. $50 on amazon. I found intervals using their free iPhone app to be way fun and very sustainable for winter training. The sufferfest workouts are scary!
I’ve tried zwift with my kk, also on a friends wahoo kikr and power was all over, ugly and frustrating. I gave up because it also wasn’t fun.
I updated my Kickr with new firmware this weekend and it does seem to be working reasonably well. In sim mode it works well with Zwift. The ERG mode is still a challenge.
The one issues I do have now is that the new firmware disconnects the strain gauge. I don’t know if its related, but the unit now shows power when I am coasting.
DB
Just wanted to give people a heads up. I ordered my KICKR2 a week ago and was excited to try it out. Turns out my 2014 Specialized Crux Carbon Disc frame has clearance issues with the trainer. My disc caliper mount was having issues hitting the handle of the KICKR and interfering with the dropout mounting exactly in line one the trainer. I took my frame off the trainer and there was definitely a small pressure mark on the KICKR2 handle and on my rear disc caliper mount area of my frameset.
The Specialized has a 120mm rear disc caliper mount and Wahoo does say in their support documentation that rotor sizes smaller than 160mm the caliper may interfere with the trainer (they recommend taking the caliper off). However my frame’s issue was the caliper mount and not the disc caliper itself.
Thankfully the handle of the KICKR2 can be easily removed with three allen bolts and now that the handle is off, the bike mounts up just fine. This is the short term fix, but long run unless I file a small notch into the thermoplastic handle, I will have to live without the KICKR handle…
I haven’t found anybody else talking about frame fitting issues with the KICKR2, but word to the wise checkout any clearance issues before committing to the product!
Ok here goes. After buying and returning 2 Kickr Snaps and trying a 3rd at my local bike shop… I am now the proud owner the new wheel off Kickr. The first snap shook so badly my whole house vibrated. The other 2 were completely unable to calculate wattage. Using my Powertap C1 the discrepancy at 310 watts was 90 watts!!! It was an exponential problem. the harder you went to larger the discrepancy. When the unit at the LBS did the exact same thing as mine in regards to wattage we decided it was more than just a single issue. We put my bike on the wheel off Kickr and the power numbers matched up completely with my power meter.
Long story short. I am very happy with my wheel off Kickr (new version) … 2 hour rides on Zwift result in only 4-5 watt average differences with my power meter. Even at a 1,000 watt sprint it was within 4 watts! It isn’ t as quiet as they describe IMO … they claim “It’s as quiet as your favorite fluid trainer” and it is most definitely not as quiet as my Kurt Kinetic. But the noise is something I can live with. The road feel is the best of any smart trainer I have had (Kickr Snap and Tacx Bushido Smart). I can’t wait to log many many hours on this trainer!
Hi Jeff, how is the road feel of your new Kickr compared to your old Kurt Kinetic? I have a KK Rock and Roll and I’m trying to decide whether to make the move to a smart trainer.
We got another Kickr 2016 yesterday so I tested it against SRM. Just a simple ramp test. Kickr recorded with Perfpro and SRM recorded with Garmin. The gap in the Garmin file is just during the calibration of the Kickr.
problem loading pictures
1min
1min SRM
Perf
Erg mode or SRM controlled?? Really good matches
It was in erg mode. Srm was being monitored by the garmin while the Kickr 16 was Perfpro. On the last pic you can see the load and trainer wattage from the kickr but not Srm.
Concerning the sound level.
Which one is more silent?
Kickr or Kickr Snap?
I wanna have it in a room close to the child’s room (which wants to sleep).
The machines are the same, but the spinning wheel with all those spokes(basically a fan) and tire friction adds another layer of sound in the room. So although not necessarily louder, the cumulative noise could overwhelm. In my cave, when i run 2 kickrs i can keep volume the same but with kickr&snap i raise the volume but i don’t think the decibels are higher just more cumulative noise
I bought mine from CT. I am having trouble because when I have my Fenix 3 on sometimes the watts come down to 0 as if it loses connection with the iPhone and connects to the Fenix (which is not the device I am using for the workout). I noticed that when I turned the Fenix off, it does not happen again. This did not happen with the kickr 1. Any comments??
Sounds like interference in the environment. Though, doesn’t explain why turning off the Fenix matters (since it’s read only).
Check the Fenix3 and make sure it is not linking to the power meter of the Kickr.
So the Wahoo site has the refurbed Kickr v1.0 for $650 (possibly today only 12/26). I’m tempted to bite and wondered if anyone had any thoughts?
Curious if the electronics like Bluetooth and chipset are upgraded from the 2013 to the 2016? Similar to a newer generation smart phone–I assume that there is tech inside the brain of the machine. Thanks.
I’m not aware of any changes there. Though to be honest, there’s little reason for that specific component to upgrade the BT chipset, since nothing has really changed there.
Going forward into mid-2017, then a BT5 chipset would make sense, but even that doesn’t really buy the KICKR much in this scenario (if anything).
The watts produced feel 30 to 50 watts low for the effort and resistance felt. On Trainerroad my FTP is only 145. It is consistent/repeatable and heart rate appropriate for the zones if not too short. I don’t have a power meter. I have done an Advanced Spindown and Wahoo said the brake resistance was within specs. Anyone else experience watts reported being much lower than it should be and if so thoughts as to a fix. This is my second K2. The first one had so much resistance in ERG I could not get it to 150 watts to do a test Wahoo wanted me to do. This one works fine with TR-just beats up my ego. At 145 FTP Zwift would be useless unless it reported a much higher FTP.
My first K2 was VERY defective and waiting on a second. DCR says our situation is very rare. I’ll let you know when my second one arrives.
David
Mike – What is the TrainerRoad FTP value from though – trainer estimation?
David – You didn’t have a KICKR2, you had a KICKR SNAP. Totally different products.
I did the FTP test on TR-8 minutes twice.
Right, but previous to the KICKR, how did it know your power? Were you just using the power curve for a non-electronic trainer?
Correct Ray. Kinetic Road Machine with VP of 185 FTP. I realize VP can be very inaccurate but repeatable. However I’ve ridden 30 years most of the time using HR as a measure of effort. Long ago when the earth was flat I raced cat 3. Based upon who I can or can’t ride with a 185-190 FTP “feels” about right. I’ve ridden next to a friend 10 lbs heavier than me at 200 watts on his power meter. Not easy but not near death.
1) minor question but what size 11 speed cassette comes with the kickr? Can’t find that info anywhere or how they know to send you a 10 vs. 11 speed cassette? Even when I put one in my “shopping cart” they didn’t give that info or ask.
2) Am probably going to buy the kickr vs. the others. Feel like I got burned going joule gps instead of garmin a few years ago and it was like I bought betamax instead of vhs in terms of support and interacting with others. All other things being equal-ish b/n this and the Hammer will go with the one that seems to have won the race to be the most used/supported.
Mike- i know this sounds weird but are you testing ftp in erg mode? erg mode takes a little adaptation from progressive trainers or slope/simulation mode. Alot of people struggle in erg mode at first. Try testing with a 1.5% slope in a big gear so you don’t have to deal with the micro bursts erg mode causes and a big gear to increase road feel. I bet your numbers improve.
Darren-11/26T sram 1130 cassette.
RE: Cassettes
I believe the default these days is 11-speed for Wahoo (default shipping), unless stated otherwise.
Thanks Keith. Trainer Road automatically changes from ERG to resistance during the ftp test. So I will have to blame wimpyness and old age 🙂 but there is a thread on this issue on slowtwitch.com under Accuracy of New Flickr.
Thanks! Just wondering what size 11 speed cassette too. Would be nice to be able to choose (e.g., instead of standard 11-25, would run 11-28 like on my current outdoors bike, especially given steep (!) slopes on Watopia).
🙁
Corrections-“Keith” and “Kickr” not “Fickr”
I have the “old” Kickr, purchased it in November 2015. Is the “more accurate power readings” in the new Kickr, along with more smooth transitions between rapid low and high power efforts (I’m assuming when using Erg mode) worth an upgrade to the new Kickr? The noise level in the older model doesn’t bother me or others in our household, so I’m good there. I’m just curious whether the more accurate power and the smooth wattage transitions are worth the investment in a new Kicr. ?
Meant to write “Kickr.” 😉
Apparently the max resistance of the KICKR is 999w not 2000w. It can read that amount from the built in power meter but can only apply 999w to the brake. I just checked this with wahoo support. Sucks that I had to spend $1200 only to find out I can’t do short intervals above 999watts.
Hi John,
I’m not sure who you spoke with at Wahoo but that is incorrect. The KICKR brake can generate a constant torque regardless of speed. The actual power it generates is limited only by how fast it can be driven at max brake and in reality is well above our marketing claims and what any human can do.
Thanks,
Chip from Wahoo
Hi John,
Caught up with Kyle in our office that you talked to. To clarify, our App only allows you to set ERG mode up to 999 Watts. That was a conscious choice just because we didn’t think anybody would ever want to set ERG mode that high and space in that screen was at a premium. It can be set higher, but not currently by our app. If you want to do intervals above 999 Watts I suggest level mode pretty high like 6 then just give it everything you’ve got.
thanks,
Chip
Hi Chip,
What is the max torque? Could I use it to simulate climbing on a singlespeed?
Eric
Hi Chip, any chance you can respond to my comment regarding improved responsiveness and accuracy of power–new Kickr versus old Kickr, and whether the improvements are significant enough to entail purchasing the latest model? I’ve had my Kickr just a little over a year and am a bit bummed that the power accuracy in the model I have supposedly has flaws. Also, I’m curious about the responsiveness in big wattage jumps and the comparison between the two models. thanks.
Reply # 182(first new Kickr) & 184(old Kickr) should help.. #237 is our second new Kickr. Still have the original and on carpet or rug, its really quiet.
Honestly if you have a good old Kickr and your bikes derailleur doesn’t hit the belt guard you shouldn’t need to upgrade. I don’t think it’s anymore or less accurate than the new one and once you are up and riding, you can’t tell which one your on..
Well said Heith:)
Very helpful, Heith! Thank you!
I purchased a Kickr2 from a good shop in London (UK), brought it back as it makde a very loud high pitch sound, which changes depending on frequency – kind of rattling/grinding, hard to describe. It’s like the Kickr1 but way louder. Checked with the shop 3 other units and they all had the same issue. The demo unit (in the shop) didn’t have this problem. Now waiting for the UK distributor to take a look.
Could be a bad batch? Any other cases?
I’m having huge issues with a brand new wahoo kickr 2. Constant signal drops in both ant+ and Bluetooth when using bkool, zwift, trainrroad and even the wahoo app.
Have tried wahoo support, followed all their advice including using only Bluetooth, only ant+, trying different devices (ipad, Pc, Android) but it none made a difference. Even tried using the kickr in the garage away from any wireless signal. Fed all this back to wahoo and today instead of offering more support they closed my ticket!
Had enough now. Returning it for a refund.
That doesn’t sound good. I’ve had a Kickr 2 since September and the only issue I had was when trying to use it via Bluetooth with the Zwift Mobile link because my 2011 MacBook Pro didn’t have BT4. It would have trouble connecting in the first place and I’d have to restart the iPhone to get it to connect. Also at that time there were some issues with the resistance dropping down to nothing. Zwift support were fairly useless. Wahoo support suggested switching to Ant+ because they had seen lots of customers having issues with Bluetooth and Zwift. Zwift finally acknowledged that the MacOS Sierra upgrade has caused them to experience Bluetooth issues – but it took several support requests for them to acknowledge it. In contrast, wahoos suggestion to use ant+ with Zwift worked perfectly and I didn’t look back. I’m now using Zwift with my iPad using Bluetooth and having no problems at all.
If you have tried multiple devices, different software, Bluetooth and ant+ then surely your Kickr2 must be faulty and wahoo should replace it.
I’ve used wahoo for over 4 years and their support has always been excellent. In fact I got a kickr rather than a neo because I heart bad things about tacx support.
I would give wahoo another try – explain everything you had tried and ask for a replacement under warranty.
I know you can recreate prior rides using the Tacx Neo (a friend in Switzerland does this all the time). Can you do the same with the new Kickr?
Any news on this supposed firmware update for the new kickr? I have the new one which i really like but was expecting there to be an update to show actual power rather than the brake power. Its far to clean power graph to be actual power.
After DCR discussed this with wahoo i thought it was going to be sorted?
It’s been in beta for a while. If you ring up Wahoo support, I believe they’ll give beta access.
This update went public the other day (Jan 24th 2017 iirc) allows switching off power smoothing in ERG mode. Tested on a Kickr2, and it’s a beautiful thing. 🙂
Hi there, Loving the news about this… I would like to think im that smooth but i know im not… quick question.. can this only be turned on using the wahoo app?
Just wondering whether i could put this into use on trainer road
The power smoothing is turned on and off in the wahoo app and the setting “may” be stored in the Kickr itself. At least that was my experience using the Sufferfest app.
I used the Sufferfest iOS app this morning for the first time after updating the Kickr firmware and had turned off power smoothing using the wahoo app after I updated the Kickr. The Sufferfest app showed actual power so the setting may be stored in the Kickr itself and when using other apps like Trainerroad, will also show actual power.
Hi,
First, your website is truly great. A lot of useful information presented in a organized way. Thank you very much.
Second, I have been trying to buy the new kickr on CleverTraining using your coupon code but it doesn’t work. It says that the item is not valid with coupon codes. Oddly enough, the coupon code would be working if I were to buy the elite or the tacx neo.
Am I missing something?
Thanks,
Filippo
Hi Filippo,
Some manufacturers don’t allow the discount which includes Wahoo–so to get Ray’s discount–you join the Clever Training VIP programs ($5 I think) and then you will get the coupon discount in the form of points that can be used/applied on anything else at Clever Training.
Thank you,
Filippo
I am very interested in the Kickr2 and it’s a plus that it comes with a cassette, but I’m confused with the cassette size as indicated at Clever Training: “Drivetrain: 11 Speed Shimano/SRAM (compatible with 8, 9 and 10)”
My bicycle uses SRAM 10-speed setup, and I’m hoping to have the shifting just as smooth on the trainer as with my wheel, so I’m trying to figure out if the compatibility noted above with the included cassette does match this, or if seeking out a separate SRAM 10-speed cassette would make more sense? In doing some quick searches, it’s difficulty to discern the compatibility or necessary adjustments to mix this 10-speed and 11-speed setup.
Any insight?
I had to put on a 10 speed. The included 11 speed did not work with my set up.
Thanks for the input.
I need to look up more the differences/similarities between Shimano and SRAM; for example, I’m curious if I purchase a SRAM 10-speed cassette if it would then be as simple as swapping out the existing 11-speed one that comes with the trainer.
Either brand of cassette should work. However, when switching from an 11 speed to a 10 speed, you will need a spacer to make up for the missing space. I went to my local bike show and they did everything to make it work. Enjoy!
Thanks for the comments, West. Do you know what kind of spacer (what size?)? Curious if I can purchase one ahead of time. Was the spacer put on inside the largest or outside the smallest cog?
My LBS doesn’t sell Wahoo’s line of product, so I’m hesitant to request their assistance when not shopping with them.
The spacer is 1.85mm wide. The 11 speed Kickr should include it in a bag. Otherwise, most shops should have extra spacers since they are generic to fit cassettes on 11 speed freehub bodies. You need it for both Shimano and SRAM. For Shimano, unless it is Tiagra 10 speed, you also need to install the 1mm spacer that is included with the cassette.
Hi Ray, love your site… my go to for information . A quick question i was hoping you could help me out with
Whats your opinion on training using erg mode (currently use trainer road) In big ring or small ring?
i use a new kickr
The high inertia Low inertia option
Big ring = High inertia
Low ring = Low inertia.
I must say in the small ring it feels a lot more difficult (shown by the increased heart rate) and simulates more of a hill climb compared to the more inertia assisted big ring ( bit more like a flat road)
At same wattage its very different feel, and harder in the small ring,, was wondering if you have any opinions on this?
Also! 15 minutes in… worth a spindown on the new kickr before the warm up ends?
Regards
Mike
I ended up buying the new Kickr after reading this review, specifically the power accuracy details. The unit I received isn’t anywhere NEAR yours. At 200 watts in ERG mode my Stages power meter reads 25 watts higher, well outside of Wahoo’s 2% claim even if you assume the Stages is off as well. I contacted Wahoo support and they gave me a line about how every power meter is different. “There will be some discrepancy in power readings between the KICKR and third-party power meters. There are a lot of factors that go into that, such as where the power reading comes from, but it is completely normal.” Completely normal? Pretty unacceptable a the price point.
I answered all of their initial questions and they havent gotten back to me. I tried calling for help today and their support line rings to voicemail.
25W at 200W is 12.5% which is a big difference. I use a Stages and do not have such a big difference, although it also depends on my power output. At lower power levels such as 150W my power meter usually reads higher, and at higher power levels (like 330W), the Kickr usually reads higher. I’m not sure if that is due to my left leg doing more or less compared to my right leg at different power levels, but at those ends it can vary from 5-20W average difference for an interval. The average power difference for the entire ride is usually fairly close, like 3W unless I need to redo a spindown.
Make sure you do an advanced spindown in the Wahoo App since that can make a big difference in the power accuracy. For me, it seems that I get the best results when doing an advanced spindown starting when the trainer is cold, and a standard spindown when the trainer is completely warmed up (I usually do it after a 1.5 hour ERG session at 170W). I rarely redo the advanced spindown, and I occasionally redo a regular spindown.
Either way, the trainer will never perfectly match the power meter. The best thing to do is use software that does power matching such as PerfPro Studio or TrainerRoad. It is good that you have a Stages power meter, so just use that as the reference instead of the Kickr, especially if that is the same bicycle you use outdoors.
I had a previous generation Kickr that I exchanged for the current generation one. Still having same issues with power accuracy. At lower wattages my P2M and Kickr are within a few watts. But as the watts increase the difference increases. As a result I have to use powermatch with TrainerRoad which works fairly well for long intervals but for shorter stuff I am almost always over the target initially and then under for the rest of the interval which is annoying.
Stages in Orange, Kickr ERG mode in Blue
Yeah, that’s pretty far off. What calibration steps have you done on both units?
As noted of course, using a Stages power meter for comparisons though is especially tough.
I calibrate the stages before each ride either on my Garmin (in the case of the data shown above) or the stages app on my iphone. For the Kickr I do a spin down after a 10 min warm up.
I have heard some mention an advanced spin down but I don’t see the option.
Very disappointed thus far with Wahoo support. Going on 48 hours without a response and when I called yesterday it went to voicemail.
Brian,
Your issue most likely is that you need to do an advanced spindown. I think you need to do it with the Apple version of the Wahoo Fitness App since Android may not have that option. Don’t expect an exact match with your power meter afterwards, but it should be much closer than it currently is.
For the Apple version of the app, if you do not see advanced spindown after selecting spindown, tap the comment text five times and you will see the advanced spindown option.
Part of the response I received from Wahoo:
The Stages at the crank arm and the KICKR at the rear axle -so the Stages will report higher power numbers because it’s reporting at the crank set at your foot and the KICKR takes it at the rear axle which will be lower due to heat loss in the drive train.
If this was the case everyone would be reporting issues.
Very disappointed with my support experience with Wahoo.
That answer is absolutely 100% correct though in terms of how it works. What was the remainder of the response you received?
Have you done the advanced spindown noted above?
I’ve never been able to work out the Wahoo software and spindowns..
On one hand, the Wahoo Fitness app (android) never seems to complete a spindown.. It just gets stuck on ‘coasting down’. The spindown in the Wahoo Utility actually does complete, though.. (i’m assuming one of these applications is old/deprecated)
In Wahoo Fitness, I’m unable to get any advanced spindown option to show. It shows in Wahoo Utility, but only references the Kickr Snap..
Can I just say in theory, yes, but the wrong theory.
The measure of power and down-stream accuracy theory came from the thought of measuring horsepower with car motors. They measure HP from one of 2 spots. 1.@ the crank(always higher) and 2. @ tires (always lower). With a car this is true for the reasons stated above. But with a bicycle, it’s not, for this reason. You can only apply as much force as the force pushing back(resistance). In other words you can only apply force to resistance. So if you put down a huge amount of force with zero resistance, you really didn’t apply any force and the strain gauges will let you know.
With a bicycle, if the force is measured upstream or down stream the losses will be equalized with resistance(upstream) or the force(down stream). If you remove all the drive train(like measuring a engine from the crank), then yes the statement above is correct. But the drive train is not removed therefor any losses would be accounted for on the resistance side and vice versa.
Newton’s 3rd law: for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction.
Science would disagree with you. It’s well tested, proven, and demonstrated over and over again that a drivetrain loses efficiency between the foot and the road. It’s not just some theory, it’s reality. That reality is enumerated as lower power values the further you get from the foot.
Starting point for your journey: link to cyclingpowerlab.com
Yes I agree. 100% that the force at the foot would be higher than the force to the ground after all the losses from the drive train and tire and wheel flex. But the strain gauges are between all that loss and all that force.
I really do agree with all the losses in drive train and power at the ground versus power at the foot. All I’m stating is the fact that all those losses are being measured with strain gauges. And on one side, you have resistance, and on the other, you have force. You simply cannot apply more force than resistance. In other words, once you add all that heat and drive-train loss, total power is reduce at both ends. Even if you think Force from the foot isn’t reduced the resistance is. I’m not saying you aren’t going to use more energy or your body isn’t working harder. I’m just saying by using strain gauges the power should be equalized force/resistance.
I swear I’m not trolling on purpose. I’ll look deeper into this and figure out why Newton’s 3rd law does not apply. Maybe it’s his first law and the minor accelerations of the human body not being efficient. But on a machine at a steady state the 3rd Law should apply.
DC,
I have done advanced spindown but the brake factor never changed.
When i got the Kickr out of the box the belt was tightened to 33 seconds brake factor was 0.94, power was off by 20 watts or so
Wahoo asked me to tighten the belt to 15-22 seconds. I tightened to 22. Did an advanced spindown and brake factor was still 0.94. Power discrepancy did not improve, Kickr got considerably louder
A week later and Support said they couldn’t “see” that i had done the advanced spindown on their end. By this time the belt had loosened to 25 seconds. I tightened to 19 seconds. Completed an advanced spindown and brake factor was 0.93. Again, power discrepancy did not improve, Kickr got considerably louder.
Wahoo has been very slow to answer. Usually 4 days after i respond. And their support phone number goes straight to voice mail. I asked for a replacement and they said i haven’t demonstrated that there is anything wrong with the unit I have.
Unless they can help me troubleshoot it will be going back before the 30 day return period. Great ride quality, horrible accuracy and customer service. I have gotten more help on this forum than from Wahoo.
So I had time to look at the link on power losses and yes we can all agree there are power losses. What the link doesn’t address is are those power losses measured at the SRM. I say they are. Because the SRM is between the losses and the Force.
Simple experiment: link to youtube.com
Think of it like this, if you have a 500w motor and 250 watts of resistance you only have 250 watts measurable. What we are talking about; are these losses being measured given the placement of the strain gauges? I’m saying the loss between the chainring(Bike) and the cassette(kickr) is in fact being measured. If the energy is lost between the force and the resistance then it is also lost between the resistance and the force.
I believe that the losses take place but given where the power meters are located I believe they should measure the loss.
Examples
1. Sprint on a MTB with wide open suspension vs. a road bike. You might hit 1,500 watts on the road bike and only 800 watts on the MTB, why? Did you sprint less hard? No, the losses showed up on the power meter.
2. Do the same experiment on the trainer. Bet you can’t hit 1,500 watts on the trainer and no it’s not because you aren’t getting full motion. That may be part of it, but it’s because those losses or lack of resistance is being measured.
3. When you get out of the saddle on your MTB and your rear tire slip, you still expend a large amount of energy as you foot slams forward but the power meter looks at it as if you did very little as the resistance has gone. The energy was used but because the resistance was not, the power meter could not measure.
So, I’d return the device not measuring accurately.
My point is, there is no reason you should have a 20-30 watt discrepancy between a chain-ring and cassette at a constant state and the power meter companies know this. They know that those power losses are calculated with there tools because they are between those losses. The customer service guys might not know this but the physics guys do.
I would like to apologize about the wrong statements I made below or above. I went through the entire drive-train and found differences with the stages vs. other power meters. It does matter where the PM is placed. I had a lot of help getting me through my stubborn thought process but in the end I can confirm that there is a difference, not much but a difference. Please take any comments I made previously and disregard them as they are not accurate. Again I apologize for the wrong statements and I hope it doesn’t or didn’t effect anyone’s customer service relationship. Sincerely sorry
No worries!
I see there’s now one heck of a Wattage forum thread. 🙂
Yes, a few people showed a tremendous amount of patience for the Internet. In the end I think it was a net plus. As I had to get off my butt to learn, they had to figure out a way to teach the unwilling. I also think it might have needed it a little. Not 5 pages, but, you know.
Just wondering if anyone has an idea of what values should we expect from performing a spindown calibration. My unit gave me 30 seconds at 30 degrees. Does that sound ok ?
Per my recent support discussion with Wahoo it should be 15-22 seconds. My came from the factory at 33-35 seconds and I have been having really large power accuracy issues versus by power meter. They instructed me to tightened the belt to 15-22 seconds but I haven’t had any increase in accuracy. Only a large increase in noise.
I hope you have better luck with Wahoo Support than I’ve had.
I am debating between buying the SNap or the Kickr 2. My only concern- Does the SNAP feel natural, or does the KICKr 2 have a superior ride feel?
The KICKR2 (or KICKR1) definitely has a more roadlike feel than the SNAP.
I’ve had enough with broken Tacx fluxes– it’s kickr 2 time! Anyone know of current discounts for USA buyers?
You likely won’t find much in the way of Wahoo flat-rate discounts, as the company doesn’t permit it these days.
However, you can use the DCR Clever Training VIP program and get back 10% in points that way (that you can spend immediately). Plus, it supports the site. 🙂 link to dcrainmaker.com
Hi Ray. I have a combo Kickr2, Garmin, DC Analyzer question. I have a new Kickr 2 and have been controlling it in ERG mode from the Wahoo app and recording the output on both the app and my Edge 520. The Edge is showing multiple power drop outs at irregular intervals, but always for three seconds each. The power doesn’t actually seem to drop, but the value is recorded as a zero. Any idea what may be causing this? I thought I saw a slowtwitch post by you that indicated this may be a long-standing issue.
I then used the DC Analyzer to confirm that the power in the Wahoo app remains steady, which it does, and to easily see the Edge drop-outs. I uploaded two sets of data, and in both cases the power comparison data showed a time offset, but the HR and Cadence data did not. Additionally, this offset started at about the five minute mark in one file and around 20 minutes in the other. I can correct it for the sections I was examining, but then all of the other data is offset. Any thoughts here?
Links to the two files:
link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
Appreciate the help, and really enjoy your work.
RE: Edge drops
This looks like classic interference, likely WiFi interference, but hard to tell. The other classic case is when a Garmin unit drops all sensors due to Bluetooth overloading, but that doesn’t appear to be the case here – since you didn’t drop on cadence or HR. Which leads me to believe simple interference on the Wahoo side only. There’s no rhythem or rhyme when it comes to one ANT device dropping vs another. I can have 6-10 ANT+ devices online at once on a trainer ride, and one will drop for a few seconds but none other will, and than 28 minutes later, a totally different one drops.
RE: Offsets
What’s actually interesting here is that it shows the offset splitting in the file for power, but not for cadence or HR data (which remains matched). Did you pause at all by chance?
Depending on the answer to that, I can follow-up and see if there’s some quirk we’re not accounting for. Typically for me I never hit pause in comparison sets to avoid issues like the above.
Oh – and finally – thanks for trying out the Analyzer and dropping a note!
Thank-you for the response Ray. I have verified that I did NOT pause either of the workouts that show the power time offset.
Thanks. Let me dig.
So, digging complete.
This power shift is actually in the raw file – which is kinda crazy. We validated that’s truly that’s in there using other tools. Not terribly logical.
That one was exported from the Wahoo app, correct? If so – I can hit up Wahoo on their side to see if they can track down what appears to be a bug (either on the recording side or the exporter side).
Just a quick update.. I tightened the belt as advised by Wahoo support, and my spindown times are now reading 33 – 35 seconds (they were up around 42 seconds before) — but still way higher than the ideal range of 17 – 23 seconds that Wahoo Support told me.
I’ve gone back to Wahoo Support with this. The first response was they needed my serial number (I had registered the device against the same email address I logged a support case with — but whatever). I provided the serial number, heard no response for days. They have now come back to me claiming the spindown files are incorrect as they are for advanced spindowns. This is incorrect — I open the Wahoo Fitness app, go into the devices, select the Kickr, and select spindown. All spindowns have been completed this way.
I’m still waiting on them to provide feedback on my spindown files, and whether or not I should be tightening the belt further given how far off my spindown times are. Very disappointed with the customer service so far, and I’m thinking I’ll probably aim for a refund — the responses from Wahoo haven’t been terribly helpful so far, and my support case is taking too long to resolve.
Oh, and I notice a vibration through my bike when pedalling in smaller sprockets at times. The vibration seems to correlate with my pedal stroke. The Kickr is on a mat with floorboards underneath. I also notice almost a whirring sound (in addition to the normal Kickr sound) that comes and goes — this was not present before tightening the belt. I’ve advised Wahoo Support of this, who are requesting a video.
My suspicion is that the additional sound is due to the belt possibly needing to be tightened further into the sweet spot. I’m unsure about the cause of the vibration — but it’s very frustrating.
I agree on their customer service being a bit useless, it takes them 1 week plus to reply to every email I sent them. if you got it from a shop take it to them and get them to deal with wahoo. I bought mine from REI and had 2 months of emails with wahoo and no solution even after sending my serial number multiple times and videos and telling them what the problem was. I went over the 1 year warranty because of the slow response and could only exchange, I ended up getting this one but I would take back to the shop and exchange or fix, 2 months of wahoo emails and I def give up on them.
That’s weird. Wonder what the difference is?
I’m located in the US of A. My first TICKR had a fatal problem with quick battery drain. This was two years ago and they were very quick to mail a replacement. Never took more than a day to respond. I felt like I was the holdup.
Fast forward to this week and my refurbished kickr arrived ($650!). I’ve been riding on it for a week, gosh I love it. I had a support question (2 power spikes during 3 hour session) and contacted them with data. Their precise and personal response arrived in less than 12 hours.
So… at least from where I stand their support has been as good as it can be, and seems to still be. I guess we’ll see how I feel in a year?
At least right now, 3/7/2017 I’ve found the folks at wahoo to be enthusiastic about their gear and eager to engage with me whenever I have a question.
thatmdee, If your belt is not slipping under high load, I don’t think you need to worry about the spindown times. My Kickr2 also has spindown times higher than 23 seconds, and it works fine. Power is also tracking similarly to my Stages after a spindown.
About the vibration in the small cog, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is just your cassette/chain interface. Try it on a different trainer, and I think you will have similar vibration in that gear combination.
Interesting.. thanks for the responses. Here is the latest reply from Wahoo:
“your spindown times look consistent so do not tighten your belt any more. However, you do need to do 2 normal spindowns and 1 advanced spindown so we can make sure that your brake strength is properly set and your device is properly calibrated. ”
This completely contradicts what they told me before, and I’ve read here — that spindown times should be 17 – 23 seconds. They now seem to be suggesting spindown times do not matter.
This is after having told me the spindown files they were looking at were all for advanced spin downs — which was blatantly wrong. I’m not sure how I’m supposed to trust support, when they don’t even appear to know their own product.
The other thing, wrt noise…
The lower the gear you choose the slower the flywheel turns and the quieter the unit is. I am training on an old compact 26″ mtb. With kickr I’m doing all my workouts using the quietest gear, which for me is 32×17, so nominally I’m doing all my rides at 7-9 mph. I then enable ‘virtual speed’ setting so erg watts are translated to a higher speed that pretty closely matches my old trainer’s wheel speed (14-17 mph). Setup this way the trainer is much quieter than my drivetrain, and much much quieter than the adjacent kurt road machine.
The noise does seem to correlate with the flywheel speed. However, the vibration through the bike frame seems to occur (from what I’ve observed) when attempting to maintain a cadence of 80 – 100 rpm once I’m up around 160w+ .. It happens in larger and smaller sprockets, and is very frustrating — as it ruins the immersion and reminds me I’m on a trainer that’s performing poorly. I’m not sure how I can provide Wahoo evidence of a vibration, given there is likely to be no audio (unless I use some kind of accelerometer app on my phone mounted to my handlebars).
The other part of Wahoo’s response I forgot to add in:
“What I need you to do is 2 normal spindowns followed by an advanced spindown and then do a 20 min workout in the Fitness app in ERG mode with watts set to over 120. You can change the watts or set it to what you are comfortable with, but it has to be over 120. Then save that workout and email the file to me by sharing it through email and selecting the fit file.”
Honestly, after being told the spindown time should be 17 – 23 seconds (echoing what others have said here and elsewhere), then told a spindown time of 33 seconds is okay — I’m not sure what to believe. The above also makes me feel like Wahoo Support is a typical (outsourced?) support center where the staff don’t know the product, just read off a script and expect you to jump through hoops with little rationale.
It shouldn’t be taking > 2 weeks to have them to troubleshoot a $1,600 device or tell me what spindowns I need to do and the files I need to provide..
No disrespect intended, if you haven’t you do you think you could send them a video that demonstrates the noisy vibration you are experiencing? Maybe record the vibration by pressing the phone/camera onto your handlebars? Sounds to this uninformed internet stranger like a bearing is bad or misadjusted. Something that would/should be obvious to them.
I had a friend return this trainer because it interfered with the acostics of concrete rooms, some frequencies resonate and the sound can be loud. Was not workable for his living situation.
Something else to try (yes, inconvenient, but I can freely insist because no skin in the game 🙂 ) is to move the trainer somewhere else and see if it is related to location or the surface.
I have my trainer setup on a hardwood deck that sits over vinyl matting. I get no vibration through my frame, unless I get the flywheel way up somewhere past 35 mph. At really high speeds there was a deep warbling sound and a deep buzzy feel to the bike, my whole house is resonating, but the bike’s drivetrain is still much louder than any of that.
Yep, I’ve found a couple of Android apps that will record vibrations using the accelerometer, or maybe I’m better off just recording video with any stabilisation setting turned off — and hope the vibrations show up in the video.
I noticed the Kickr mat is 6mm thick, and I’d say the mat I’m using is probably thinner than that. I might try a yoga mat to see if it makes any difference. Not sure I want to shell out $100 for the Wahoo mat if it doesn’t fix the issue.
Unfortunately the entire house is floorboards, so it will be a bit difficult trying elsewhere. Failing the yoga mat, I could possibly try setting up the Kickr outside on concrete to see if there’s any improvement.
The sound and vibration you describe sounds similar to what I’m experiencing, but at much lower speeds. Do you happen to roughly know how thick your vinyl matting is?
I still disagree with Wahoo that 33 second spindown is acceptable, especially after they advised it should be 17 – 23. Surely this would have an impact on belt slippage, etc — and would affect noise and vibrations.
My kickr is outside in a weird sort of covered area that is itself over a bedroom. The trainer is resting directly on 10’x3′ pallets made from 1×4″ ipe hardwood plank. The pallets have 1×4″ ipe cross pieces every 3 feet. Those pallets are resting directly on 2mm vinyl commercial roofing sheet, which overlays a regular house floor: plywood flooring, which is itself supported by 2×8 joists, and there’s a room underneath. There’s a slight hum in the room beneath when I’m on the trainer, but quieter than the furnace.
The deep thrumming sound when its going really fast is some sort of low frequency harmonic. Can feel it in my lungs and in the air.
Just to isolate and characterize the sound you might try putting the trainer directly on concrete, something solid, and see what sort of noise is made. I’m skeptical of a simple matt, wahoo or whatever. It might work, but then so would little bits of closed cell foam.
My guess, for this low frequency stuff, what you want is to put your trainer on a sheet of stone countertop remnant, maybe lie that over some carpet remnant or a sheet of cardboard. That would definitely damp vibration!
I really wouldn’t worry about too long spindown time. Loose belt is bad because it can slip free, but its a toothed belt so would need to be really loose to do that. Rule with belts is just barely tight enough that it never slips. Any tighter you are eating the belt and even bearings for no reason. Having less friction is good for you and the machine. Means its made well.
Vibration: IMO you need something heavier/denser than yoga pads. Try sorbathane pads under the contact points or the heavy rubber flooring used for garages.
I may have missed where you got your machine but this is an awful lot of effort for a relatively high $$ device. Either ship it back and get another or swap it out at the store you purchased. Or, if possible, find a shop/friend/studio that has one set up and compare performance.
Agree with your comments, Eric. As the belt tightness increases, the noise level and vibration goes up.
Thanks for the responses.
I certainly hope a 33 second spindown time is okay. If so, Wahoo Support really need to improve their communication. I’ve been told it should be 17 – 23 seconds, and to adjust the belt to get the device into this range. But now, I’m told 33 seconds is okay. Reading around here and elsewhere, it seems other people are being told the same thing.
If Wahoo are going to claim the spindown should be 17 – 23 seconds, then claim higher is okay if tightening the belt fails to reduce the time sufficiently — they should be communicating this upfront. It’s a bad look for them to turn around after the fact and claim 33 seconds is okay, and reeks of a desperate attempt to avoid the problem and close out the support ticket. Having worked in IT myself, including support roles (a developer now, thankfully) — I know all too well the tactics used to close out tickets and artificially inflate KPIs.
Oh, the last email received told me to do a 20 minute workout above 100 watts. The previous email said 120 watts. It appears they are unable to take a consistent approach within single support tickets. Again, a very bad look that leads people to believe they don’t know their own product and hence are unlikely to rectify issues. It all makes me very nervous — so I might just have to bite the bullet and see if there’s a way I can return the device under Australian Consumer Law.
I think you guys need to step back and realize that this device is being made in small numbers by a small company. It is not going to be as reliable and well developed and relatively good value like a component that is built in the millions.
My support ticket with Wahoo ended up being escalated. Here’s the latest response:
“I am going to take over your ticket. So I can start from the top. A 30+ second spindown is no cause for alarm on the hardware of your unit. Many people see that after tightening the belt it can indeed produce more noise from the unit. When we initially tested the units pre-production we saw spindowns around 17-23 seconds depending on unit temperature. That’s where that number comes from. So you can tighten the belt to reach this spindown time but it may result in noise. You can also get a video of the noise if it’s highly concerning. Let me know if you’d like to either tighten the belt, do an advanced spindown, and then check the accuracy or if you’d like for me to look in to a return on the unit.”
So, their entry level support are incorrectly advising the spindown should be 17 – 23 seconds, and getting people to tighten the belt when not necessary. As per their instructions, I’ve done an advanced spindown to check the accuracy — but before making any further changes to the belt tension.
I now have a device where the belt was tightened as per instructions, and is noisier. So their support have made the situation worse by giving incorrect advice.
Regardless of the excuses about them being a small company producing a small quantity of devices, I fail to see how this is acceptable. And reading around, plenty of other people are receiving the same advice.
It sounds like you got someone initially that was confused. Perhaps they’ve had one confused person giving bad advice. I suspect by the phrasing of “I am going to take of your ticket”, that they know this, and they’ve probably taken that person outside and shot them. Seems the only logical thing to do.
If they haven’t, I’ll forward your note over and ensure it’s completed promptly.
In the meantime, it sounds like you’ve got the correct instructions.
Rather than focus on the messenger, how about get the detail about the source of the spindown variance?
The plot thickens:
“That spindown is little long compared to the tested model, so you can actually safely tighten the belt. If for some odd reason the belt does snap, I am more than happy to send a replacement. How is the calibration of the unit at this current state?”
So:
1) Told to tighten the belt to achieve 17 – 24 second spindown time
2) Tightened belt down to 33 – 35 seconds
3) Ticket escalated, and told that 30+ seconds is okay for spindown time, and tightening may produce noise
4) Ran advanced spindown
5) Now told the spindown is a ‘little long’, and to tighten — a new belt will be sent if it snaps (how long will this take?)
What the hell Wahoo? Get your story straight. I think I’ve totally lost faith at this point. I’m being told multiple, contradictory things — and there’s a large degree of uncertainty about how the product should work.
@eric — I’m unsure of the defensiveness. This is not an isolated case. If you search around online, you will find different people are being told to tighten the belt to achieve lower spindown times. However, apparently this doesn’t matter — yet now it does once again (?!?).
I think it’s more than fair to shoot the messenger at this point. Wahoo are unable to provide a consistent message and information as part of their support process, and it appears to be a broad reaching problem.
Being a smaller company as you claim, there should be less cause for concern as information is disseminated throughout the business..
Wahoo customer service is horrible. It seems like their growth has outpaced their staffing in support and they seem content telling you to the Kickr as is. Responses take days. No matter what the problem you describe their story changes but always ends in ‘everything is fine’.
I to was told to tighten a loose belt from mid 30s (as it was shipped to me) to 17-24. My Kickr became a LOT louder and it didn’t improve power meter accuracy at all.
In the end they told me everything looked fine on their end. Aside from power meter accuracy, I think the Kickr is great. I hope the smart trainer segment continues to grow. Some competition would do Wahoo good.
Agreed — thanks for the input. That has been my experience thus far, and I see from your post and others that I’m not alone.
Call me crazy, but I’m thinking of getting a Tacx Neo Smart instead. My (entry level) road bike is only an 8-speed cassette. So this will likely mean an upgrade to a 9/10/11 speed cassette (which is more $$$) — however, here in Australia, the Neo is only an extra $149 more than the Kickr at the moment. It’s quieter, and doesn’t need calibrating — which for me personally is a win.
Apart from having to upgrade shifters, cassette, etc — I’d happily pay the extra $149.
.. Or maybe it’s an excuse for a new bike? 🙂
Not defensive. I’ll flush out what I meant: some schmuck is feeding bad advice to the public, hopefully, but it could be the whole support team. Ray suggested the poor broken support unit be taken out back… to me sort of like yelling at the guy behind the counter at KFC. Dude was following a script. Hopefully they’ve fixed it?
I don’t want to see the fry cook fired. But I would like to hear the engineering justification for whatever advice they give and/or gave.
What you experienced smells bad to me too. Its like if Toyota told me to overtighten my cars fan belt – id be irate too. Screaming mad. And belts breaking… what the heck? Those are gates belts! Those belts are engineered.
So i’d like to understand what they think they accomplish by overtightening belts.
Cheers!
Thanks for the clarification. Not really much of an engineering justification, but here is the response I received:
“The engineers have explained that the long spindown times have no negative impact as the belt tension is factored in during the spindown calibration process. I have just personally seen a couple cases where tightening the belt tension brought the KICKR calibration closer to the power readings from the external power meter. To be honest, I have no explanation for this. That is why I figured it would have no harm in trying it on your unit. I am not concerned about the belt snapping but I just wanted to let you know that if, for some odd reason, it did snap that I would provide replacement. The best way to fully integrate the adjusted tension in to the KICKR’s calibration is to run another advanced spindown post-belt tightening. That being said, I would also need more information about your external power meter as no two power meters will ever perfectly match.”
So there you have it. 17 – 23 seconds (or 24.. depending on who you listen to) is a standard based on earlier units. Belt tension is factored in to spin down calibration, so tightening the belt to lower the spin down time should not affect power accuracy, but sometimes does for no apparent or discernible reason.
For anyone with a newer model Kickr (2016) experiencing high spindown times, it may be the result of a bearing change in their supply chain. I received this email from Chip at Wahoo:
‘Sorry for the hassle you’ve had with your KICKR. If you can give us another day or two I think I’ve gotten to the bottom of the issue you are seeing with spindown times and accuracy. The instruction to tighten the belt in order to shorten the spindown time wasn’t correct. We got a couple units back that had the high spindown times and realized the factory had snuck in a new bearing on us that has much lower friction. That’s what caused the long spindown times, not loose belt. We’ve been able to characterize the new bearings with our dyno and have a beta firmware just about ready to release. If you can put the belt back to the original tension I should be able to get you the beta firmware shortly and you should have quiet and accurate. Sorry for the hassle it was a breakdown on our part where these bearings slipped into the supply chain without our knowledge and we didn’t pick up the issue right away.’
Unfortunately for me, it just throws further uncertainty into the equation and means I can’t be sure
of the device’s accuracy without comparing it to an external power meter — which opens up a whole new can of worms regarding differences (as we’ve seen above) — i.e. power loss through the drivetrain, etc.
Unfortunately, I’m not going through the long and arduous process of seeking a refund — but the above may be helpful for others experiencing similar issues and help avoid 4 weeks of pushback
against support who seem to be giving incorrect advice.
Wow, it is good that Wahoo is getting to the bottom of this issue. I guess the firmware will have to know what parameters to use for power calculations based on the serial number or manufacturing date of the V2.
I don’t even bother with it anymore since the tools reference my power meter for the target wattage. But for shorter efforts, and for better ride quality, it would be nice to not rely on power matching with an external power meter.
Our customer service folks helped us track down the source of the issue we were seeing. They are up to speed on the current status. Hopefully we’ll get a new firmware out for KICKR16 tomorrow. It will only affect KICKR16s manufactured recently. Our initial modeling didn’t consider KICKRs with spindown times in that range. We have updated the model to accommodate the wider range of spindown times and fully tested and validated their accuracy now. KICKRs with the new longer spindowns were generally underreporting power.
-Chip
This is cool news. I bought a Kickr in January 2017, my spindown time is about 37s… the performance of the device seemed fine, but I was curious about the longer spin times compared to others.
How are we made aware of the new firmware, just via the Wahoo utility app? Does that include beta firmware? Or is this going to production?
Cheers,
-Nico
Chip,
I bought a a Kickr January 23rd and had a nearly identical experience. Kickr power seemed inaccurate, spindown times in the 30s, told by support to tighten belt which resulted in a noisy Kickr. My experience with Support was horrible. I kept getting told over and over again everything was functioning as expected. Turns out that wasn’t the case.
My case number is 274009. Can you please have someone from support make this right now that you identified the problem?
I’ll ask them to reach out Brian. Watch for the firmware update. It will prompt you if you use our Wahoo Fitness or Utility App. Pushing to get it out today. They can help you get the belt back to the optimal tension, that’s the other step you’ll need to do. Sorry for the hassle… Once the firmware is released they are going to notify all the folks that were affected.
thanks,
-Chip
I was just now prompted for a firmware upgrade on my January 2017 Wahoo Kickr “2”… the firmware version I have is now 3.3.53… I do plan to use the trainer later today and can report back any differences.
Thanks Chip. I love this, a fine result! Somehow support and engineers and production connected the dots. No more overtightening belts, firmware fixed, everyone wins.
I do sort of expect that this should have been caught at the factory. I’d think someone could rig up a test system that validated every unit’s accuracy before it went out, just to make sure everything is peachy. 5 minutes? A test would have caught the production change, then wahoo could have debugged the issue and fixed the firmware to work with longer spindown. Testing must be cheaper than support calls or returns.
Chip, I have a question for you: I ride erg mode with my mtb with low (quietest) gearing, my flywheel speed typically averages 7mph. The spindown cuts out and shows a result before the flywheel reaches that low speed. I’m wondering if the ‘spindown factor’ is correctly characterizing my trainer used at that low speed. Shouldn’t the spindown wait a bit longer to more fully characterize the curve, or is that not useful because the characterization is only a single exponent and the fast speed’s inaccuracy dominates?
Chip,
Can you please provide some graphs showing us validation of both the problem, and the solution? Your company’s inconsistent message and support on this topic has severely damaged your credibility.
ChrisM,
Standards such as ISO9000 (not sure if I have that number correct) or similar make it hard to switch things in a production run without lots of paperwork. It is a headache to the company, but good since consumers won’t have the types of issues we see with the Kickr since those issues can be resolved before changes to the product are shipped. I guess that is less of a headache to a company than lots of consumers complaining that something is not correct and the company having to try and figure out what changed.
You guys are tough… I am extremely sorry we screwed up! Our factory is ISO9000, the change was approved, unfortunately the impact wasn’t anticipated. We would love to be perfect but we’re not. We will always do our best to own it and fix things when we do mess up. The problem was we didn’t initially see KICKRs with spindown times in the range that we experienced after the change. Our testing protocols didn’t “fail” for longer than anticipated spindowns, we didn’t think to check for that condition. It got past all our production testing and QA and was ultimately discovered/reported by 6 customers. A few of those were incorrectly instructed to tighten the belt on their KICKR because that was the assumed reason the spindown times were longer than normal. We’ve updated our models to correctly account for the longer natural spindown times and released the update. The 6 customers that were instructed to tighten the belts have been contacted to explain the mistake and help them reset their belts to the correct tension and apply the firmware update. I don’t have any charts or graphs to show. There are several variables at play. KICKRs with longer than 30 second spindowns were underreporting from 5-40 watts depending on power output, actual spindown time, temperature, etc prior to the update we released yesterday.
Eric – The spindown is placing it on a curve that is fully quantified from very low to very high speeds. It’s not necessary to measure at the extremes to identify it’s characteristics.
thanks,
-Chip
Thanks Chip for engaging directly with us: the angry rabble.
It looks like I’ve got one of these Kickr v2 2016’s with the aforementioned low friction bearing as well. However, even with the latest firmware, I’m getting quite the large discrepancy in power readings between both my Power2max Type S and P2M NG; typically 15-20W difference when looking at a peak 5 min power for efforts above 300W.
One curious thing I’ve noticed though is that at ultra low speeds (radio tower climb in Zwift at 10kph/300ish Watts..100% trainer difficulty setting), the power readings seem to line up, and they seem to line up again when I’m riding at really high speeds (45+kph, 250ish Watts)
Just curious if anyone else is experiencing this issue?
PS. I should note that I have done spin down tests at every opportunity, as well as multiple advanced spindowns!
My concerns are unfortunately being brushed aside by tech support, but here’s a controlled test I did – I set erg mode to start at 150W, adding 30W every 90 seconds with a final 90second stretch at 330W. I did this test with 4 different gear ratios kept at a (almost) constant 90RPMs. Gears, in order, were 39×21 (low flywheel speed), 39×14 (medium flywheel speed), 53×19 (medium flywheel speed; same ratio as 39×14), and 53×14.
What I found is that the lower the flywheel speed, the larger the discrepancy between my Power2Max NG and the Kickr2. At 20kph, I was putting out 354W average on the P2M NG for the 330W bit (and believe me, I felt it), but at 40kph, the P2M NG and Kickr2 suddenly matched within 2-3W.
One look at the analyzer and it becomes pretty clear that something is amiss – perhaps lower flywheel speeds = greater brake power, but somehow the brake is “underestimating” it’s power?
Link to DCR analyzer comparison here: link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
Assuming your on the latest firmware, but definitely looks like something is skewing there where math is somewhere falling apart.
Maybe Chip will weigh in.
Yup, latest firmware, spindown was done after 10 minutes, etc. I agree though–perhaps the power model is just missing/misrepresenting something, and once it’s pinpointed, the math/formulas can easily be updated and pushed out with a firmware update.
Thank you for at least agreeing that something is off! The support guy hasn’t been very receptive to this idea and seems very eager to simply close the ticket and move on..
Chip: would greatly appreciate it if you could weigh in!
I was an early adopter of KICKR and I am now into my 4th winter with this device. It is the best training tool for the long winter months in Ohio and is worth every cent. The hardware is bullet proof in my opinion.However software is another issue. Two examples today, one very very annoying and potentially serious the other just plain annoying.
KICKR Firmware Update: Riding KICKR on Zwift and riding fine. Typically I will do a spindown every couple of weeks to make sure the device is calibrated. I notice there is a firmware update when I access the app today, After the update completed, KICKR cannot track power, spiking all over the place and resistance and speed all inconsistent. Tried all evening to achieve a successful spindown but to no avail. Device is now out of action and I have opened a ticket with Wahoo.
Wahoo Fitness App: I use this for running mostly. I updated it today. Every time it updates it loses some of the settings for Audio Announcement, once or twice this would be tolerable but every time it updates?
Great job!!!
I would like to subscribe
Unfortunately I just ran into a frame compatibility problem 🙁
Canyon Ultimate CF SL (same mold as the previous SLX) – Works with KICKR1 and KICKR2
Canyon Ultimate CF SLX 2016 (the current version) – Works with KICKR1, does NOT work with KICKR2
Notice the trainer arm contacts the inside of the chainstay/dropout area.
I sent an email to Wahoo earlier, so rather than re-type it, here’s the main point.
“The rear non-drive side dropout of my Canyon Ultimate CF SLX (2016) does not fit my new KICKR (2016 ver). I didn’t have this problem with my previous, original KICKR (2013 ver), on which when the 130/135mm adapter is installed for 130mm, sits proud of the steel frame. Whereas on the new KICKR 2016, when installed for 130mm the adapter sits flush with the welded circular part of the steel frame. It’s this steel part that rubs the chainstay on my bike.”
I can’t find a single photo online of an Ultimate CF SLX + KICKR2 combination, so perhaps it’s not just me. And curiously, Wahoo sponsors the Canyon/SRAM women’s team with SNAPs, not KICKRs. I wonder if it’s my frame that is out of spec with regards to hub/dropout “keep out” areas, or of the KICKR2 is out of spec.
For completeness sake here’s the other frame sitting in the same trainer. No contact.
Kai – In your first photo of 3/23, I see a visible space between the chainstay/dropout area of the bikeframe and the Kickr. I am not sure what you mean by making contact. At least, it doesn’t appear evident in that picture.
Here is the contact point.
The inside face of the dropout is square. It’s just that the flat part is unusually small, less than 20mm in diameter. And the “endcap” of the Kickr2 “hub” is unusually large, and contacts the frame outside of the flat inner face of the dropout.
My Canyon Endurace does something similar although not quite as bad. It just ever so slightly touches the chainstay. Was thinking of filling off a couple of mm of material from the trainer but thought I would email Wahoo first to see what they say.
What response did they give you?
Today I ride first time KICKR 2 on ZWIFT.
Very nice response.
But I also use new SRM power meter.
What I see, the power from KICKR avg. 10-20W higher than on SRM PC8.
Did you noticed same?
Just picked up a new Kickr 16 for my Fiance. Using the same ANT+ dongles I use with my Tacx Neo on Zwift I am getting tons of little power drops (never had these drops with the Neo that is in the same room right next to it and turned off while using the Kickr). I updated the Kickr using the Wahoo app to the newest software version and did an advanced spindown. Overall I can still use Zwift, but approximately every 30 seconds it will instantly flash to 0 watts and then pick up again maybe 2-4 seconds later. What’s happening? I’d say wifi interference, but it never happened with my Neo. It’s frustrating to say the least and sometimes caused the Zwift rider to stop and get off the bike. Is this a known issue?
Are you using a pc or mac?
What dongle are you using?
What drivers are you using?
I can at least share my setup experience. Hope it helps. I cheaped-out as much as possible, got the Anself ANT+ from amazon for $15 along with an 8′ usb extension cable (to keep dongle away from laptop). I am using the trainerroad drivers against windows 10. I get a fantastic connection to the kickr, no drops/spikes with golden cheetah or trainerroad. I hate zwift so never tried it. That same dongle also works fine with the cadence sensor and my tickr hrm.
I have a reconditioned original kickr. Frankly was surprised how well it has been working for me after reading years of grief.
Here’s some free advice from a random internet schmuck:
– If you’re using a mac I have no advice for you.
– To reduce interference: Experiment and make sure to disable any potentially noisy devices nearby (electric motors, microwave, a different trainer, garbage disposal, garage door, fluorescent lights, cell phones, etc).
– Make sure you’re connecting as ant+. Could it be using accidentally connecting to ble?
– If you’re not using the Garmin or Anself dongle I’d order an anself because its cheap and it worked great for me. Search for: “Anself USB ANT+ Stick Compatible with Garmin Forerunner 310XT 405 405CX 410 610 910 011-02209-00”.
-try the trainerroad drivers (because they worked for me.)
-If you don’t have a long usb cable to separate the dongle from the computer then get one of them too. I feed the dongle to within 3 feet of the trainer. I get a poor connection if its through a door or more than 7-9 feet away.
– do you have an iPhone? Does the iPhone zwift app also dropout?
Anyway, that’s my experience and some details that might help us if you shared. Hope it somehow helps.
Thanks! That helps.
Using Macbook Pro. Garmin ANT+ dongle. What do you mean what drivers? Just purchased the long USB male to female cable so we shall see if that helps…….
Have been using KICKR for several years. Mine was a pre-order before it was initially shipping so it’s KICKR1 rev1. The past week or two I’ve noticed VeloReality rides have had unusually low power readings on climbs and that the power would swing dramatically up and down without any change in how I was riding. Updated firmware, re-calibrated and did a triple recording of power (VeloReality, Fenix, Wahoo app) to eliminate the possibility of a bad cable or ANT+ USB adapter. Cleaned the optical sensor, and still had the same problem.
Called Wahoo support and they had me download some beta firmware and do an advanced spindown which ends up eliminating the strain gauges (sort of a relative to the software being used in KICKR2). Everything seems to be working fine again. The setup hadn’t been moved or disturbed, but apparently the strain gauges may have gone bad. EXCELLENT support from Wahoo!
The 20% discount for REI members is now useless for the Kickr as it is no longer available according to the REI website.
Yep looks like it’s it at rei anymore… wonder if it’s Store in thier stores but not listed online.
I just called REI. They said once inventory runs low, the online site takes it off so you can’t even search for it. The guy looked in the store and said they dont have any left.. So local stores may still have it.
Yeah, I’d keep an eye on it. It’s interesting, people are definitely picking up units. It’s unclear to me if perhaps REI inventory is shifting around (i.e. a unit goes from a local store back to a central distribution center, or what-not), but seeing occasional sales come through on the KICKR.
That said, REI does seem to have a bit of a habit of running low on KICKR’s during these sales. I’m not sure if it’s intentional, or just simply they don’t expect to have a big spike on them. I suppose if they normally sell a handful per week, and then turn around and sell 100-200 per week, that’s a big shift. And last I chatted with them they didn’t really have a very focused bike-industry buyer, so they may not be in-tune with the deal.
In any case…
Hi Guys,
I’m just thinking of paying out for a Kickr as I am getting frustrated with the power match feature in TrainerRoad on my Tacx Vortex. The Vortex only has a 10-15% accuracy and is very slow to respond to power changes coming from Garmin Vector 2’s (double sided).
Can anyone comment who is using TrainerRoad and the Kickr with Power match. Does the Kickr respond well to changes coming your power meter? I feel like i’m constantly fighting with the Vortex.
Thanks
Power matching has its own issues, even with a Kickr. In my opinion, power matching works better in PerfPro Studio than TrainerRoad, but neither are very good for short intervals (less than a few minutes). They aren’t bad for longer intervals. The Kickr has its own power matching setting configurable through the Wahoo Fitness App, but that is worse than PerfPro and TrainerRoad for me.
Thanks it’s good to know that swapping trainers is not going to resolve my issue.
Anyone using the Kickr 2 with a Canyon Endurace CF frame? I’ve run into some compatibility issues with the non-drive side Chainstay slightly touching the Kickr and was wondering if anyone else had a similar problem or if anyone with this frame has had no issue indicating its a problem with my particular frame . And yes its on straight etc.
Was hoping to find some other people using this frame on the Kickr.
Got my Kickr this week and just thought I would share my experience for those who google their way here.
Bike: Merckx Eeklo 70 (2015) – no issue with dropouts or chainstays fitting. Everything sits perfectly.
My RPM Cadence sensor did not work out of the box. No connection via bluetooth or Ant. I replaced the battery with the battery from my garmin cadence sensor, then the Ant connection worked but still no bluetooth. Finally bought a new battery and now everything works! I was able to update the firmware via the wahoo app after the first connection.
My Kickr has a spindown time of around 40 seconds after 15 minutes or so of riding. I have no power meter so no way of judging if power is accurate, but it’s probably not way off if I consider RPE and my current cycling fitness level.
I’ve been having intermittent dropout issues in TR using the ios app, every few minutes power drops to zero, I generally wait, backpedal, enjoy the break and then everything ramps back up again after maybe 5 seconds. You can see the gaps in this trainerroad ride: link to trainerroad.com
The above has only happened when connected via bluetooth. When connected via ant to my PC I didn’t get these issues, but I did get some kind of strange stepwise ramping that you can see here at the start of each interval: link to trainerroad.com I solve it I will post here.
Despite the above I’m actually pretty happy, it feels really well put-together and is much quieter than my Elite Quobo Fluid which is meant to be one of the quietest non-direct drive trainers.
Success! My above dropout issues were fixed by making sure that the Wahoo Fitness apps were closed and not running in the background on my iphone.
So just a heads up to those interested, I had a KICKR Snap that I picked up (last one I think in NYC early December) that I just loved, having never used a trainer before.
That noted, by the spring as I swapped from fun “rides” indoors on Zwift to a more serious training regimen on TrainerRoad (Zwift had yet to get ERG mode set up properly with my P1 pedals), I finally bit the bullet and during the VIP sale picked up the KICKR2.
Arrived last week and I have used it all week. So far the notable and awesome positives are:
(1). No more annoyance with swapping between two wheels on the rear and no more concerns constantly making sure tire pressure is maxed out, etc.
(2). I have a Giant Defy Advanced Pro 2 (2016) and a Giant Defy Advanced SL 1, both with disc brakes. I was really fearing the issue with the disc caliper hitting the KICKR2, but no issues there! Very close, but not hitting! Incidentally both frames are mediums.
(3). While using trainer road, I immediately have noticed that I have far less of bouncing around of the resistance which can be so annoying when trying to keep at a stable power level during segments. It really feels extremely smooth and I get to focus far more on my cadence, speed, and power output rather than at times seeming to fight the delays and drops in resistance that would happen with the SNAP.
Regarding sound, there is no question that the Snap feels to me quieter than the KICKR2 which makes sense. However, though I initially was a bit concerned by what I felt was the high pitched whine of the KICKR2, over time not only have I found myself quickly getting used to it, but almost appreciating its presence. It doesn’t appear to distract me while using either Zwift and/or TrainerRoad (or in my case both concurrently).
So far so good. Will continue to use the KICKR Snap as well for training in another location I have, but for my main training indoors clearly the KICKR2 is a keeper!
Incidentally, I was very tempted by the TACX Neo, and there are things about it that look awesome – but between the price and my fear that my disc brake calipers might hit (heard some horror stories about that), plus the size, weight, etc., just felt like the KICKR2 is the right compromise for me.
And not really a compromise in my books!
Also have experienced no drops or anything along those lines.
Hi
Well done and thank you for such an in depth and informative website. There are way too many biased sponsored reviews out there. I’ve read many a review on here before that left no rock unturned, but for the first time I’de really appreciate a bit more info if possible.
I’ve read through most of the replies, but couldn’t confirm unambiguous specifics on a few points.
I’ve just had my second rotator cuff repair in 9 months, compliments of trying to get too rad too soon at the Cascades DH track in Pietermaritsburg. What an awesome place it is though, highly recommend even if you only ride enduro. So needless to say I’m on an extended sabbatical from DH.
1. Is the trainer compatible with a 650b hardtail and softtail? 142×12 and 148×12 respectively.
2. Can the cassette be changed with my bike’s 11 spd cassettes ? i.e. I have an XT cassette on my HT and an X01 on my ST.
3. On the same note will the trainer be compatible with 11spd cassettes 10-42?
4. I’de imagine that pedalling at slower mtb speeds there would be less noise. Your guess?
5. I’ve read a lot of negative reviews with connectivity issues. I really am not a patient person, and prefer low tech hassle free to a whole bunch of gadgets I’ll probably never use anyway. With that in mind are there other more suitable trainers you would recommend to suit the bill? I don’t mind paying for blatantly superior products.
Any useful details would be really appreciated.
Cheers
Hi
Well done and thank you for such an in depth and informative website. There are way too many biased sponsored reviews out there. I’ve read many a review on here before and never needed more detail because no rock had been left unturned, (high five emoji), but for the first time I’de really appreciate a bit more info if possible.
I’ve read through most of the replies, but couldn’t confirm unambiguous specifics on a few points.
I’ve just had my second rotator cuff repair in 9 months, compliments of trying to get too rad too soon at the Cascades DH track in Pietermaritsburg. What an awesome place it is though, highly recommend even if you only ride enduro. So needless to say I’m on an extended sabbatical from DH.
1. Is the trainer compatible with a 650b hardtail and softtail? 142×12 and 148×12 respectively.
2. Can the cassette be changed with my bike’s 11 spd cassettes ? i.e. I have an XT cassette on my HT and an X01 on my ST.
3. On the same note will the trainer be compatible with 11spd cassettes 10-42?
4. I’de imagine that pedalling at slower mtb speeds there would be less noise. Your guess?
5. I’ve read a lot of negative reviews with connectivity issues. I really am not a patient person, and prefer low tech, hassle free, jump on and go to a whole bunch of gadgets I’ll probably never use anyway. However, I don’t mind forking out for obviously superior products. With that in mind are there other more suitable trainers you would recommend that suit the bill?
Any further info would really be appreciated.
Cheers!
I have a vibration question re. Kickr2 (already going back and forth with Wahoo, but want community thoughts).
I consistently and repeatedly get significant vibration through the bike when getting into the low 40s km/h. Is this something which others are finding with their units? Do people find vibration and shrug this off as par for course?
After some digging around, I found a video of this brave soul attempting some DIY flywheel balancing .. and along the way he showed drilled areas on his flywheel which looks like (presumably unsuccessful) factory attempts to balance the wheel.
link to youtu.be
I’ve run same bike on a roller unit at same speeds and zero vibration, so I’m content that it’s not the bike/drivetrain itself.
Rory
That is really interesting. Yes, I have just got a Wahoo Kickr Snap. I can confirm I get the same crazy vibrations at higher speeds. Thankfully because of my MTB setup on it, I don’t train at those kind of speeds all that much.
Now that you have brought this to my attention, I will definitely be taking it back to the shop to be looked at properly. I also have never experienced this with any kind of trainer before.
So annoying!
Do other people have to adjust their rear derailleur every time they put their bike on (or take it off) the KICKR? With the new KICKR, my 11 speed bike is horribly out of tune when I put it on the KICKR. It seems like i need to adjust the limit screws a LOT to move the derailleur towards the bike. It’s really hard to tune the derailleur when you are fighting the resistance of the KICKR.
I thought I’d be smart and buy some 0.3 mm cassette spacers to push the cassette a little towards the bike. I added 3 and it makes things better. I clearly need to add another 1 or 2, but the cassette lockring no longer reaches the threads of the freehub.
Why is the KICKR over 1mm out of alignment with my bike frame? Is it because I have a 142mm frame with a thru-axle? It’s VERY frustrating when you want to use a single bike on the road and on the trainer. I wish the KICKR somehow allowed some lateral movement of the cassette.
Strangely enough, my 10 speed bike works just fine on and off the KICKR with no retuning (using the provided 1.8mm spacer). With my old first generation KICKR, I used to have the same problem with my 10 speed bike.
No, definitely not normal.
I agree that somewhere in the combo the spacers are incorrect on one of the two spots. That said, thru-axle’s are a bit more nebulous to me (as I simply don’t have any bikes with them). I’d reach out to Wahoo support, as I’m sure they’ve seen this before and can probably offer some super quick-tips to getting you back in silence again (not silencing you, just the noise).
Kickers are terrible, overpriced piece of garbage, Already had 3 and will not buy another one for sure. Who designed the case where derailleur touches it in 28 cog?? WTF all 4 of my bikes are pushing hard on the case when derailed is in highest gear. I have doubts they actually tested them in real world, more like virtual “fluid testing”. Now Kickers without string gauge are no different from literally bullet proof Kinetic Kurt fluid trainer and virtual power, it is exactly the same crap minus ERG. Kicker was awesome when it was released, but no more.
After one season of usage at 8-12 hours a week I have a feeling flywheel\bushings\bearings? get worn off and a bit loose, and power no matter how many times you spin down is always off (no string gauge), it only works semi ok with external power meter. I said semi ok because during 30:30 intervals it takes 15 sec to get to vo2MAX power and you only have 15s interval left, to work around you need to design intervals correctly…The guy in video says they test this at 100W? Who is this design for? Grandma and her colleagues form retirement home? This season I’m getting Tacx Neo and we will see how it performs. Maybe I’m a bit biased, but how I can be not biased after having 3 different devices, I paid full price for each time…
Wow, that’s a super strong opinion, but I can understand being frustrated if you’ve paid for 3 of them.
I loved my original KICKR. In my opinion, it was such a leap from the Kurt Kinetic Road machine that I forgave some of its imperfections. When I upgraded to the new KICKR, I was really disappointed that it didn’t seem better. It doesn’t seem quieter to my ear and I don’t feel like the new power measurement is more responsive. On top of that, I’m surprised they haven’t nailed the thru axle setup (it’s poor).
Saying all that, I like Wahoo as a company. I would just like to see a little more innovation before I upgrade again. Here’s my wishlist:
1. Silent (like the Tacx Neo)
2. Rock solid thru axle connection with no derailleur adjustment.
3. Side to side movement (like the Kurt Kinetic Rock and Roll).
4. Adjuster to laterally move the cassette so that you don’t have to adjust your derailleur.
I’m confused – what’s it hitting on? I don’t see how it could hit on anything unless you didn’t raise the KICKR using the lever below it?
Regarding accuracy, actually, there’s quite a difference there. The Kurt Kinetic and Virtual Power has no reference, no calibration. So it’ll vary based on tightness and air pressure.
I had the same problem with 1 bike on the original KICKR where the derailleur (barely) touched the flywheel when I was in the biggest cog in the cassette. I use ERG mode almost exclusively though, so it hasn’t been a problem for me.
For reference, it was a 10 speed (11-36) cassette with a long cage SRAM X9 derailleur.
Read the review for the 2017 KICKR Snap. With the regular KICKR updated last fall, should we expect a 2017/2018 New(er) KICKR later this year? Or will it hold steady for a while?
Looking ahead to purchasing a trainer for the fall when I have to deal with wet and cold again…
I am also interested in knowing if wahoo is going to update the Kickr2 any time soon. Anybody know?
Has anyone figured out how to prevent the ant+ dropouts on the kickr. I just got mine from CT last week and I get multiple dropouts on my garmins (FR935 and Edge 820). I have the extension cable for the computer but I log everything in GC. I have tried leaving my cell phone outside of the room, the fan is 8ft away and it still has dropouts.
Also, the power seems low. I know I am comparing P1’s to the Kickr and there will be differences in that but the perceived effort seems hard for the given watts. I may set up my other bike on it to see how both compare to my quarq.
Thanks
In a 1.5- 2 hour TrainRoad workout I will get 3-5 dropouts for a short period-couple of seconds. I have the TV and four fans running. I don’t know if this creates the dropouts or not. I don’t have a power meter but I’m sure my FTP is considerably lower than PE, HR and 30 years of riding would lead me to believe. I know I produce negative watts but not this low! However for TR purposes it doesn’t matter as the Kick’r is “accurate” by that I mean consistent. If you determine the reason for the low watts let me know.
Mike
Thanks for the response. I did a 1 hr TR session and had ~20 dropouts with the longest being ~8 seconds. That seems high to me for a $1200 trainer. I haven’t contacted Wahoo support yet, thought I’d reach out here first.
As far as power goes, the normalized power between my P1s and the Kickr today was about 7% different so given the power meter locations and accuracy its in the “ballpark” but last week I did a ride had ~14% difference between the two. If the accuracy stays how it is today I’m fine with that but if it goes back to the 14% I’ll have more of a concern. For the record, I did a spin down on last weeks session and the zero offset on the P1s did not change during the ride. I actually didn’t do a spin down today and I only did the zero offset before I started.
I am 20% lower than VP using a KK Road Machine. But 15% lower “feels” to be in the ball park to me as well.
Does this come with a 11-32 cassette?
Any issues with a long cage RD, or putting on a 11-40 cassette?
There’s no reason to use a high-tooth-count cassette. The KICKR can give the proper resistance no matter what gear you are in. Typically you just need to shift the chain in a middle sprocket on the cassette and leave it alone.
Thanks, but my gravel bike has a 11-40, and I’ll most likely want to use that. It has a long cage RD already.
You should be able to put any cassette on the KICKR and use your long cage with it.
Has anyone else had problems with their Kickr V2 stopping providing resistance suddenly and nothing can be done get make to come back. Wahoo have swapped out my Kickr once already and 4 months later the same as happened again. Is this a known issue with the V2? Thanks
It turns out as I have my Kickr next to the window it interferes with the optional sensor. Wahoo have provided me with a beta firmware that has resolved the issue although I am seeing that when trying to follow a plan on Trainerroad the power match with my vector pedals shows slightly more variance. This is however is much better than a very expensive paper weight,
Hey Ray, wonder if you can shed some light on the wahoo kickr for me
Erg mode 300 Watts
52 28 no problem
move to 36 28 … i would say 30% harder to keep the same wattage.
What is going on here? Is this due to inertia of the flywheel? And what gearing should i be using for Erg modes?
There is a huge difference between a lower and higher gear in terms of effort at same wattage
Hi Mike,
I’m not wahoo tech support, nor do I play them on tv, but here’s my advice.
It sounds like your machine’s resistance curve isn’t set right.
1) Have you done a spindown?
2) Have you done an ‘advanced spindown’?
I would start with those two actions, even before I contacted wahoo.
For erg mode: Find and stick with the smoothest less-cross chain-I-est pair of gears you have, you want to minimize drivetrain resistance because wahoo cannot detect it. Generally lower gears work better, the kickr is more accurate and seems to respond faster at lower speeds.
I do my workouts with a mountain bike in a 32×17, that is a straight shot for the chain.
good
Great review!
I’ve read your review above and also one on http://vikao.net, both are positive overall but, do you think the Kickr costing twice as much as the Kickr Snap, has twice the performance benefits and is worth paying double the amount of the Snap?
I have both the Snap and the KICKR and the difference is considerable, yes I think the investment is sound.
Direct drive means no slippage, no worries on the thermal side as the tire heats up, no need for separate training tires and/or having tire blowouts, etc.
My power readings and control are far better with the KICKR.
Downside? You have to of course take off your rear wheel and sometimes that can be a pain – but then again, because I didn’t want to screw up my normal tires for outdoor use, I was doing that anyway since I would put a training wheel on for the Snap. So really not a downside in my opinion.
I am struggling with the new KICKR 2017 and having to adjust my rear deraileur on my two Giants to deal with getting through all the gears on the stock installed 11-speed cassette – not sure but think there is a slight change since the KICKR2 in spacing such that I need to do this (did not do it for the KICKR2).